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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 8:46:05 PM   
vincentML


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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 9:39:09 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

crimes his unit committed at Auschwitz. Is this too little too late for the Germans? What do you suppose motivates them at this distant date? Admittedly, we do not have the entire Brief to review but it seems Hubert Zafke is on trial for what his unit did. Under a fairly recent German law, I think, guilt is alleged just for being a cog in the wheel. Does it matter that he was an SS medic?

What do you think?

source

I think he shoulda picked a country to move to that wouldnt extradite him..

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 9:42:03 PM   
Dvr22999874


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He maybe figured he was such a SMALL cog in that wheel that he could merge into the surrounding scenery and not be noticed. Many did. Many also became quite high-ranking politicians and public servants.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 9:57:00 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

He maybe figured he was such a SMALL cog in that wheel that he could merge into the surrounding scenery and not be noticed. Many did. Many also became quite high-ranking politicians and public servants.


then his second mistake was not cultivating really, really, really good friends in high places who would help him evade prosecution/extradition..

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:02:09 PM   
Dvr22999874


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If he was just a grunt, there is every chance he had little money of influence to cultivate those kind of friends. Maybe he could threaten to turn states evidence and some might still be around to cover for him

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:09:48 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

If he was just a grunt, there is every chance he had little money of influence to cultivate those kind of friends. Maybe he could threaten to turn states evidence and some might still be around to cover for him


I doubt he was just a grunt, he made enemies during the war or they wouldnt have come after him...

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:31:29 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Quite a few I would guess *smile* and he could have just been recognised in the street or in a bar by somebody with a number on their wrist; although after all these years, that seems implausible. Maybe he pissed off one of his neighbours who knew what he was.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 1:48:23 AM   
blnymph


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Three things that matter here:

This trial has been "oft-delayed" for years.
In Germany and Austria there is no limitation period for murder and genocide.
At age 95 he is not likely to serve prison time whatever the outcome; so this trial is a procedure to investigate what happened, not to send him to prison.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 1:58:58 AM   
Termyn8or


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The problem is this holocaust shit is so played out we're sick of it.

You know, these motherfuckers have the gall to want everyone to forget the USS Liberty because it was so long ago, but this shit was even longer ago. What's more,, what about the Soviets ? What, they're special or something even though they killed more ?

Oh, I guess they didn't kill Jews. That makes it OK.

Again, fukum. I am not saying killem, but this special treatment must come to an end.

T^T

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 1:59:30 AM   
Dvr22999874


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Thanks blnymph. That was interesting. I thought that statute of limitations had been brought in to cover all crimes a few years ago. Thanks for putting me right.
Even if they gave him life, He certainly won't do too much time, will he ? *smile*

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 3:38:29 AM   
blnymph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Thanks blnymph. That was interesting. I thought that statute of limitations had been brought in to cover all crimes a few years ago. Thanks for putting me right.
Even if they gave him life, He certainly won't do too much time, will he ? *smile*


Highly unlikely for him to serve any time in prison - every doc will declare him unfit simply because of his age. The juridical problem is, however, that prosecution will be ended by his death, so the court will try to proceed while he is still alive.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 4:22:53 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

It seems to me that "roaming free" and "consequences for his actions" are presumptive characterizations by you on the guilt or innocence of a man before his trial has actually begun.

Excellent point.
Of course, given the show trial nature of most of the prosecutions of aging alleged nazis is being found guilty is most likely a given and the trial itself just a token. Having access to his military records and proving that he is who he's suspected to be does provide most of the evidence in these cases. I think that's why the stalling from his defence has been more concerned with health issues than anything else, isn't it?

< Message edited by WhoreMods -- 9/13/2016 4:24:59 AM >


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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 4:29:27 AM   
KJoeDuo


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The standard for 'warm crimes' for soldiers under command has changed over the decades since WWII. Today, soldiers are responsible for performing duties while under unlawful orders. That definition includes genocide.

Relative t this case specifically, I am unsure 'why' now - but, there has been significant reluctance by the prosecutor to move on it as evidenced by the allowed and agreed to delays.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 5:23:52 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

It seems to me that "roaming free" and "consequences for his actions" are presumptive characterizations by you on the guilt or innocence of a man before his trial has actually begun.

Excellent point.
Of course, given the show trial nature of most of the prosecutions of aging alleged nazis is being found guilty is most likely a given and the trial itself just a token. Having access to his military records and proving that he is who he's suspected to be does provide most of the evidence in these cases. I think that's why the stalling from his defence has been more concerned with health issues than anything else, isn't it?


Yeah well they convicted Dejanjuk and then unconvicted him but then he was dead.

That's justice.

What happened to the Israeli pilots who destroyed the USS Liberty ? What happened to the officers who ordered that attack on the vessel of a supposed ally ? There was never a trial, or anything. WHY ? they were just following orders ? Well I heard but can't absolutley confirm that one of those pilot radioed back something to the effect "That is an American ship, are you sure we are to shoot it ?" and was sent to prison in Israel.

They really did it. The old guy they held in prison for years who was the wrong guy did not.

That's justice.

T^T

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 5:29:31 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KJoeDuo

The standard for 'warm crimes' for soldiers under command has changed over the decades since WWII. Today, soldiers are responsible for performing duties while under unlawful orders. That definition includes genocide.

Relative t this case specifically, I am unsure 'why' now - but, there has been significant reluctance by the prosecutor to move on it as evidenced by the allowed and agreed to delays.


Not over the decades, it changed right then. Even though Nazis would be shot if they disobeyed orders they were convicted.

I stand in awe of the one though, who at trial said "Six million of you for one of me, I am happy with that deal". Or something to that effect. To have the fucking gonads to say that is unusual, especially when you are in their custody.

And these motherfuckers are now prosecuting a medic ?

That's justice.

T^T

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 5:46:28 AM   
WhoreMods


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A medic who's being tried on the assumption that he had a hand in running the gas chambers and screening the prisoners at the death camps? That seems reasonable cause for a trial, however belated.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 7:47:09 AM   
KJoeDuo


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It has evolved over the decades. Laws were made at the time, yes. The Geneva Convention adopted those in the late 40's. It has been modified since to hold everyone (not just officers and non-coms) responsible and then was adapted following Vietnam to include mention and definition of "unlawful orders"

The American military changed its Rules formally in the sixties, eighties and again in the nineties

The international court at The Hague and treaties have changed since the genocide in Serbia to include unlawful orders (issuing and following) and again since the Liberian civil war.

Anyway- you get the idea- this is an evolutionary process to eliminate excuses for battlefield and civilian actions that violate human rights

< Message edited by KJoeDuo -- 9/13/2016 8:07:46 AM >

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 8:28:23 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

It seems to me that "roaming free" and "consequences for his actions" are presumptive characterizations by you on the guilt or innocence of a man before his trial has actually begun.

Excellent point.
Of course, given the show trial nature of most of the prosecutions of aging alleged nazis is being found guilty is most likely a given and the trial itself just a token. Having access to his military records and proving that he is who he's suspected to be does provide most of the evidence in these cases. I think that's why the stalling from his defence has been more concerned with health issues than anything else, isn't it?

I did a little wiki research on this and came away with the feeling that these are just show trials, although i fail to understand the motivation.

It appears that the Nuremberg trials did not set the precedent for guilt by association in German courts. Different jurisdictions for one. The precedent was set by the trial of John Demjanjuk in 2011.

German judicial authorities are scrambling to bring the last remaining Nazis to trial, after decades in which many were allowed to escape justice. Of 6,500 SS members who are known to have served at Auschwitz, only 29 were ever brought to trial in Germany. In the former communist East Germany, 20 were prosecuted. Most escaped justice because of the belief that prevailed until recently that anyone who had served under the Nazis had been forced to do so by the regime, and was therefore not guilty.

But following the 2011 trial of John Demjanjuk, a car mechanic from Ohio, US, who was convicted for being a guard without any evidence that he had been directly involved in any killings, a new precedent was set. The same argument was used last year to convict Oskar Gröning, another former Auschwitz guard who was nicknamed the “bookkeeper of Auschwitz” because of his responsibility for sorting through the money stolen from prisoners on arrival.

On the eve of Hanning’s trial, Auschwitz survivors held a press conference in which they stressed the importance that the trial was taking place.
READ HERE

I read elsewhere that Demjanjuk was previously tried in Israel where the verdict was overturned due to uncertainty of identity. In his German trial Demjanjuk was confronted by about 20 Jewish survivors as co-plaintiffs and who were allowed to testify about their experiences. A novel process. After his guilty verdict Demjanjuk was free pending appeal. He died during that process.

I have to look back to the irony in the My Lai incident where Lt. Calley was given clemency by a president who was engaged in bombing Cambodia and laying mines in the harbor at Hanoi.



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vML

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 8:31:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Anyway- you get the idea- this is an evolutionary process to eliminate excuses for battlefield and civilian actions that violate human rights


This evolution of legal sentiment is all post facto the events at Auschwitz, however.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/13/2016 8:35:08 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

He maybe figured he was such a SMALL cog in that wheel that he could merge into the surrounding scenery and not be noticed. Many did. Many also became quite high-ranking politicians and public servants.


then his second mistake was not cultivating really, really, really good friends in high places who would help him evade prosecution/extradition..

The irony is that in some of these cases the defendant was identified because he spoke out vigorously against holocaust denials.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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