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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:16:23 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR~

A dangerous myth

The prevalence and endurance of this myth is partly due to the fact that it is buttressed by two long-standing narratives. The first narrative comes from the arena of Irish nationalism, where the term 'slavery' is used to highlight the political, social and religious subjugation or persecution that the Irish have historically suffered. In this narrative, the term ‘Irish slaves’ refers specifically to those who were forced onto transport ships and sold into indentured servitude in the West Indies during the Cromwellian era. The 'innocent' usage of this phrase is, to a degree, understandable and its conflation with chattel slavery generally occurs due to a mixture of ignorance and confusion. More objectionable is the canon of pseudo-history books like O'Callaghan's To Hell or Barbados or Walsh and Jordan's White Cargo, which knowingly conflate indentured servitude and chattel slavery. The ‘Irish slaves’ myth is also a convenient focal point for nationalist histories as it obscures the critically underwritten story of how so many Irish people, whether Gaelic, Hiberno-Norman or Anglo-Irish, benefited from the Atlantic slave trade and other colonial exploits in multiple continents for hundreds of years.

The second narrative is of a more sinister nature. Found in the websites and forums of white supremacist conspiracy theorists, this insidiously claims that indentured servitude can be equated with chattel slavery. From Stormfront.org, a self-described online community of white nationalists, to David Icke’s February 2014 interview with Infowars.com, the narrative of the ‘White slaves’ is continuously promoted. The most influential book to claim that there was ‘white slavery’ in Colonial America was Michael Hoffman’s They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America. Self-published in 1993, Hoffman, a Holocaust denier, unsurprisingly blames the Atlantic slave trade on the Jews. By blurring the lines between the different forms of unfree labour, these white supremacists seek to conceal the incontestable fact that these slavocracies were controlled by—and operated for the benefit of—white Europeans. This narrative, which exists almost exclusively in the United States, is essentially a form of nativism and racism masquerading as conspiracy theory. Those that push this narrative have now adopted the ‘Irish slaves’ myth, and they use it as a rhetorical ‘attack dog’ which aims to shut down all debate about the legacy of black slavery in the United States.

In the wake of the Ferguson shooting, both of these narratives were conjoined in a particularly ugly fashion. Many social media users, including some Irish-Americans, invoked this mythology to chide African-Americans for protesting against the structural racism that exists in the United States (see a collection of tweets on ‘Irish slaves’, gathered by the author). Furthermore, they used these falsehoods to mock African-American calls for reparations for slavery, stating “my Irish ancestors were the first slaves in America, where are my reparations?” Those that share links to spurious ‘Irish slavery’ articles on social media have also been appending their posts with the hashtags #Ferguson and #NoExcuses. No excuses? This myth of convenience is being utilised by those who are unwilling to accept the truth of their white privilege and the prevalence of an entrenched racism in their societies. There is clearly comfort to be found in denialism.

The conflation present in both narratives has been abetted by the deliberate use of a limited vocabulary. The inclination to describe these different forms of servitude using the umbrella term “slavery” is a wilful misuse of language. It serves to diminish the reality of the chattel slave system that existed in the New World for over three centuries. It is also a reminder that the popular use of such a simplistic term as ‘modern-day slavery’ can reduce clarity and hinder our collective understanding of both the present and the past.

source

Hmmmm . . . there seems to be some dispute about the validity of the OP's claim.

This is the first paragraph from your source:

It was with a heavy heart and no small amount of anger that I decided it was necessary to write a public refutation of the insidious myth that the Irish were once chattel slaves in the British colonies. The subject of this myth is not an issue in academic circles, for there is unanimous agreement, based on overwhelming evidence, that the Irish were never subjected to perpetual, hereditary slavery in the colonies, based on notions of ‘race’. Unfortunately this is not the case in the public domain and the ‘Irish slaves’ myth has been shared so frequently online that it has gone viral.

Basically, it's saying ya but since it wasn't based on race it doesn't count. Which is pretty much BS. I know, I know, it's not the proper multicultural kool aid.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:21:36 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR~

A dangerous myth

The prevalence and endurance of this myth is partly due to the fact that it is buttressed by two long-standing narratives. The first narrative comes from the arena of Irish nationalism, where the term 'slavery' is used to highlight the political, social and religious subjugation or persecution that the Irish have historically suffered. In this narrative, the term ‘Irish slaves’ refers specifically to those who were forced onto transport ships and sold into indentured servitude in the West Indies during the Cromwellian era. The 'innocent' usage of this phrase is, to a degree, understandable and its conflation with chattel slavery generally occurs due to a mixture of ignorance and confusion. More objectionable is the canon of pseudo-history books like O'Callaghan's To Hell or Barbados or Walsh and Jordan's White Cargo, which knowingly conflate indentured servitude and chattel slavery. The ‘Irish slaves’ myth is also a convenient focal point for nationalist histories as it obscures the critically underwritten story of how so many Irish people, whether Gaelic, Hiberno-Norman or Anglo-Irish, benefited from the Atlantic slave trade and other colonial exploits in multiple continents for hundreds of years.

The second narrative is of a more sinister nature. Found in the websites and forums of white supremacist conspiracy theorists, this insidiously claims that indentured servitude can be equated with chattel slavery. From Stormfront.org, a self-described online community of white nationalists, to David Icke’s February 2014 interview with Infowars.com, the narrative of the ‘White slaves’ is continuously promoted. The most influential book to claim that there was ‘white slavery’ in Colonial America was Michael Hoffman’s They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America. Self-published in 1993, Hoffman, a Holocaust denier, unsurprisingly blames the Atlantic slave trade on the Jews. By blurring the lines between the different forms of unfree labour, these white supremacists seek to conceal the incontestable fact that these slavocracies were controlled by—and operated for the benefit of—white Europeans. This narrative, which exists almost exclusively in the United States, is essentially a form of nativism and racism masquerading as conspiracy theory. Those that push this narrative have now adopted the ‘Irish slaves’ myth, and they use it as a rhetorical ‘attack dog’ which aims to shut down all debate about the legacy of black slavery in the United States.

In the wake of the Ferguson shooting, both of these narratives were conjoined in a particularly ugly fashion. Many social media users, including some Irish-Americans, invoked this mythology to chide African-Americans for protesting against the structural racism that exists in the United States (see a collection of tweets on ‘Irish slaves’, gathered by the author). Furthermore, they used these falsehoods to mock African-American calls for reparations for slavery, stating “my Irish ancestors were the first slaves in America, where are my reparations?” Those that share links to spurious ‘Irish slavery’ articles on social media have also been appending their posts with the hashtags #Ferguson and #NoExcuses. No excuses? This myth of convenience is being utilised by those who are unwilling to accept the truth of their white privilege and the prevalence of an entrenched racism in their societies. There is clearly comfort to be found in denialism.

The conflation present in both narratives has been abetted by the deliberate use of a limited vocabulary. The inclination to describe these different forms of servitude using the umbrella term “slavery” is a wilful misuse of language. It serves to diminish the reality of the chattel slave system that existed in the New World for over three centuries. It is also a reminder that the popular use of such a simplistic term as ‘modern-day slavery’ can reduce clarity and hinder our collective understanding of both the present and the past.

source

Hmmmm . . . there seems to be some dispute about the validity of the OP's claim.

Comment on your "source" from your source:


There is essential truth in Liam Hogan's argument that the Irish in the West Indies and Barbados especially were not chattel slaves. There are a few documented examples to this rule but too few to really make a difference. However the quote from Akenson is unfortunate as it implies that the experiences of the Irish and Africans in our islands were vastly different.."another galaxy of human experience." Certainly in the case of Barbados, which received close to 10,000 Irish in the seventeenth century, their experiences and level of degradation and oppression mirrored that of African slaves. So much so that the two groups on at least two occasions united in common revolt against their English masters. The early Minutes of the Council of Barbados are replete with examples of extremely harsh treatment meted out to the Irish. They have been forgotten in the historiography of the region or deemed irrelevant. So works such as those by O'Callaghan, even if exaggerated accounts, do serve the purpose of drawing attention to this often ignored subsection of West Indian whites. The simplistic dichotomy of rich white, oppressive planters and poor, oppressed black slaves conveys a distorted narrative and ignores the reality that in the case of Barbados certainly, the greater part of the Creole white population, many of them of Irish descent, were powerless, abused and scorned by other whites and blacks as well. Not a fortunate galaxy at all. The idea of white privilege being applied to them ignores the reality of their brutal, sad history.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:26:37 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Wouldn't it be awesome if all races were just proud & focused on the bright future & not the dark past?".

Does that sentiment also apply to folks flying the Confederate flag more than century after Appomattox? Shouldn't they be able to "let go" by now?

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:34:29 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Wouldn't it be awesome if all races were just proud & focused on the bright future & not the dark past?".

Does that sentiment also apply to folks flying the Confederate flag more than century after Appomattox? Shouldn't they be able to "let go" by now?

Well, I'd take that as a serious apples to apples argument if it had any sort of viable comparison. But, I'm guessing since you put it forth as such, you're equally disparaging of Mexican Flags and rainbow flags flow at rallies in the U.S.?

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:48:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

There is essential truth in Liam Hogan's argument that the Irish in the West Indies and Barbados especially were not chattel slaves.


Exactly! So, you wish to compare 10,000 Irish indentured servants severely mistreated in Barbados to ten million African chattel slaves and an unknown number who were thrown overboard en-route? And then did these Irish suffer further abuse and Jim Crow laws after they were freed? Did they have to stay on the plantations as poor share croppers? I do not see an equivalency here.

Furthermore, AFAIK, the term white privilege has never been applied to the Irish of Barbados. That is singularly an American characteristic.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 9/22/2016 11:51:07 AM >


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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 11:49:10 AM   
WhoreMods


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Maybe I've missed something, but Mexico still exists. The CSA? Not so much, these days...

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:01:18 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Nnanji

Well, I'd take that as a serious apples to apples argument if it had any sort of viable comparison. But, I'm guessing since you put it forth as such, you're equally disparaging of Mexican Flags and rainbow flags flow at rallies in the U.S.?


Confederate flag symbolizes those who committed treason against our country. Just how would you find an apple to compare to that apple?

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:04:35 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Nnanji

Well, I'd take that as a serious apples to apples argument if it had any sort of viable comparison. But, I'm guessing since you put it forth as such, you're equally disparaging of Mexican Flags and rainbow flags flow at rallies in the U.S.?


Confederate flag symbolizes those who committed treason against our country. Just how would you find an apple to compare to that apple?


You're pretty much arguing my point.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:05:42 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe I've missed something, but Mexico still exists. The CSA? Not so much, these days...

Which makes pledging your allegiance to another nation is worse than remembering your regional identity.
How about the pan African flags and symbols.
There most assuredly is no pan African nation.
Most African nations still haven't gotten past tribalism.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/22/2016 12:06:18 PM >


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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:06:10 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Well, I'd take that as a serious apples to apples argument if it had any sort of viable comparison.

As the smiley indicated, I was being a tad playful.

But the not-exactly-subtle implication of the comment quoted in the OP seems to be "Why can't African Americans be like us Irish folks and 'let go' of their past oppression?" Given that, it seems fair game to wonder why another hefty chunk of the population seems to have trouble letting go of its own past. You may disagree, of course.


quote:

But, I'm guessing since you put it forth as such, you're equally disparaging of Mexican Flags and rainbow flags flow at rallies in the U.S.?

When my Irish-Catholic family had a big reunion some years back, the way we found our gathering spot on the beach each morning was by spotting the large Irish flag brought by one of my cousins and planted in the sand. Then there were the Irish flags and green clothes that we sported every St. Patrick's Day as a celebration of our ethnic roots. Not to mention countless garments emblazoned with "Fighting Irish" in honor of the familial alma mater. Mexican flags may well serve a similar purpose for those waving them, though I'll leave it Latinos to speak on their own behalf.

There's a rainbow flag hanging behind me as I type this. I see it less as a symbol of the past than as a joyful emblem of the freedom and authenticity that can be the great gifts of coming out as well as delight in present progress and hope for the future.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Nnanji)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:06:13 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Now, I've come to surmise that it's not necessarily taught because the Irish moved on & by not dwelling on past atrocities, we've been able to raise our status in the world. Wouldn't it be awesome if all races were just proud & focused on the bright future & not the dark past?".

The irish can look foreward loose the accent and gain an education just like a black man can but the black man is still black and easily recognizable...The irish can "pass for white" Not so much for the blacks.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:36:02 PM   
Lucylastic


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FR...
Sounds to me like the fault of the american education system
That and a whine by bigots trying to lessen and ignore what is happening now.
Wheres the real history from teh native americans point of view, or the chinese or the japanese just going back a century
How far do you want to go back with history just so you can justify your ignorance of how people are being treated now in your own back yard.
Yes History is important, but today is more important.



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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:52:09 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The irish can "pass for white"...

You ever met any Irish?

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:56:14 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The irish can "pass for white"...

You ever met any Irish?


Every time I look in the mirror

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 12:57:05 PM   
WhoreMods


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Fair enough.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 1:05:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR...
Sounds to me like the fault of the american education system
That and a whine by bigots trying to lessen and ignore what is happening now.
Wheres the real history from teh native americans point of view, or the chinese or the japanese just going back a century
How far do you want to go back with history just so you can justify your ignorance of how people are being treated now in your own back yard.
Yes History is important, but today is more important.



Nah! We learned about indentured servitude back in the day. It was only a secret to the OP.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 1:08:16 PM   
Lucylastic


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I believe you:)

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 1:32:01 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR...
Sounds to me like the fault of the american education system
That and a whine by bigots trying to lessen and ignore what is happening now.
Wheres the real history from teh native americans point of view, or the chinese or the japanese just going back a century
How far do you want to go back with history just so you can justify your ignorance of how people are being treated now in your own back yard.
Yes History is important, but today is more important.

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past? The Black Panthers? The Nation of Islam? Al Sharpton? The Reverend Jackson? Given how often history of past transgressions is brought up as an explanation and even justification for their actions now by people not even involved in those groups, I'd be willing to bet that those involved in those movement would also.

Disagreement over the reasons for what's happening now isn't always due to ignorance or a failure to take note of what's going on around you.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 1:48:44 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past?

I know this wasn't posed to me, but I think it's a crucial question.

I think the echo chamber of history totally plays a key role in both BLM and the disconnect between many whites and blacks on the topic of police shootings. My fellow whites and I sometimes manifest an impatience with the furor arising from what may seem a statistically small number of violent deaths. What I suspect we don't "get" at a gut level is the dismay arising from the perception of "Holy shit, once again in our long, grim history, the power structure totally discounts our lives." At least, that's what many of the African American voices I've heard/read seem to be saying.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 1:53:13 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past?

I know this wasn't posed to me, but I think it's a crucial question.

I think the echo chamber of history totally plays a key role in both BLM and the disconnect between many whites and blacks on the topic of police shootings. My fellow whites and I sometimes manifest an impatience with the furor arising from what may seem a statistically small number of violent deaths. What I suspect we don't "get" at a gut level is the dismay arising from the perception of "Holy shit, once again in our long, grim history, the power structure totally discounts our lives." At least, that's what many of the African American voices I've heard/read seem to be saying.

So irrational accusations against cops because it is based on resentment for something that happened 150 years ago, yep, that makes since.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 40
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