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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 6:45:21 AM   
Numerans


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

FR
Really, what the fuck did you expect when you let the health insurance lobbyists write the law?


Basically this, all the insurance companies were in favour of it.
Just cause you add some ingredients to your soup doesn't mean it will taste good. What before was bland as water but drinkable can become vomit inducing.
But it was probably the "best" he could do.

Any libertarian solution of giving people a health credit to spend would have put the insurance companies out of business and any nationalization project would have put the insurance companies out of business. These were the two things Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were proposing respectively.

Also it seems nowadays people are not too interested in taking any bold decisions even if there wasn't a huge lobbyist organization opposing them.
People and parties are no longer ideological, they are no longer leftist, rightist or even centrist, just meshes of half hearted compromises.

< Message edited by Numerans -- 10/10/2016 6:52:26 AM >

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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 2:44:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

FR

I don't really care how you people try to package it. The bottom line for me is that paying for your health care is not my responsibility. I was willing to accept fixing the system for helping the poor before all this bullshit talk about universal coverage and Obamacare but that's where I draw the line. If you want to work together to find ways to make it easier for you to pay for your kidney disease and for me to pay for my high blood pressure meds without creating an entirely new Department of Bureaucracy, I'm all ears. Otherwise, keep your fucking hands out of my pocket. I still have to pay for bread and water.

So, do you agree that everyone should have to buy insurance to cover themselves? That way, they don't show up at the ER with no money or insurance, get treated and the cost gets passed on down to you and me.

_____________________________

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 3:47:54 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
So, do you agree that everyone should have to buy insurance to cover themselves?

No. I think people should be responsible for the cost of their health care whether they pay cash, choose to use private insurance, or need to finance costs. I'm all for discussing ways for dealing with long-term care issues using any of those methods as long as citizens can choose whatever method they want.


quote:

That way, they don't show up at the ER with no money or insurance, get treated and the cost gets passed on down to you and me.

That would fall into the category of "the poor" which I've already mentioned.

_____________________________

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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 4:34:02 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		ironically, we more or less accept that over time, free market principles tend to lower costs and increase efficiency across the board. its when governments and bureaucracy and other third party people get involved that inflation occurs, scarcity is created, costs go up, and efficiency goes down.

so to me, as concerns liberals knowing what I just wrote above, its not about people accessing inexpensive, quality health care, but rather, increasing the footprint of government in the lives of people.

you want more doctors, lower costs and quicker access? get government out of the way. and to an extent, insurance companies too. when consumers don't see a direct cost to the product they are purchasing, they abuse the system.

I know im more or less preaching to the choir rotten johnny, so I think im just echoing or adding on to your position.


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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 4:58:57 PM   
Edwird


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Maybe you haven't worked in a large company before, but any experience in that milieu would quickly toss out the across-the-board notion that the private sector is 'more efficient.'

Bureaucracy is bureaucracy. Everybody wants a bigger budget for their department, and upper management works to increase their bonus, above all else, which latter doesn't happen in the public sector.

If the private sector is the end-all and be-all in providing goods and services in all cases, why is healthcare 50% more in the US than anywhere else?

The private sector, for the most part, is the best way to go for most things, but they are glaringly inefficient and demonstrate a good bit of 'market failure' in the matter of healthcare.

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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 4:59:29 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

FR
Really, what the fuck did you expect when you let the health insurance lobbyists write the law?

To achieve something rather than nothing, which was the likely alternative.

Not great, I agree, but there it is.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)
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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 5:10:03 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

you want more doctors, lower costs and quicker access? get government out of the way. and to an extent, insurance companies too. when consumers don't see a direct cost to the product they are purchasing, they abuse the system.

That raises an interesting question. Healthcare functioned that way for much of U.S. history. What results did that system produce?

In terms of getting government out of the way to lower healthcare costs, I believe it was our brethren across the aisle who specifically legislated that Medicare was forbidden to negotiate volume discounts on prescriptions, even though doing so would save taxpayers a fortune.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 5:17:00 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Yes, I claimed that costs would eventually go down 1/3 vs, staying on the system at present.

I didn't say that costs would drop by 1/3 from the previous week if we went to a single payer system.


So far it's taken you 4 tries to get your story right and you are still spinning.



Not many people would openly admit to having read something four times through and still not understanding it.




And yet here you are doing just that. And since you obviously lack the skill to remember your own posts let alone follow along with anyone else, I am through. You will have to figure this one out on your own.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Edwird)
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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 5:29:33 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
its when governments and bureaucracy and other third party people get involved that inflation occurs, scarcity is created, costs go up, and efficiency goes down.


Somebody here doesn't understand the simple concept of monopsony power and how that relates directly to purchasing power, nor how the prime mover among pharmaceutical companies is to create scarcity to the furthest extent possible, which they have largely succeeded in doing. In any case, the larger the amount bought in one lot, the lower the price to be obtained. Not possible in today's med market in the US.

Thankfully, at least a few people are acquainted with the benefits of that large-buyer approach;

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I believe it was our brethren across the aisle who specifically legislated that Medicare was forbidden to negotiate volume discounts on prescriptions, even though doing so would save taxpayers a fortune.


The above comment speaking about the poster. It's obvious from the quote that congress, or the idiotically called 'conservative' sector of it, has no interest whatsoever in efficiency, any more than the healthcare system itself.





< Message edited by Edwird -- 10/10/2016 6:00:56 PM >

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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 5:33:34 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

ironically, we more or less accept that over time, free market principles tend to lower costs and increase efficiency across the board. its when governments and bureaucracy and other third party people get involved that inflation occurs, scarcity is created, costs go up, and efficiency goes down.

so to me, as concerns liberals knowing what I just wrote above, its not about people accessing inexpensive, quality health care, but rather, increasing the footprint of government in the lives of people.

you want more doctors, lower costs and quicker access? get government out of the way. and to an extent, insurance companies too. when consumers don't see a direct cost to the product they are purchasing, they abuse the system.

I know im more or less preaching to the choir rotten johnny, so I think im just echoing or adding on to your position.



What you ironically (actually fucking stupidly) accept over time regarding your hallucinatory theory of free market communism ends up being untrue by demonstration.
Get free market communists out of the way, and have government regulate this shit with some real teeth. insurance companies need to be flushed down the toilet, siezed and stripped of money, the AMA outlawed as it stands today, and rid America of country destroying nutsuckers.



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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 5:37:58 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
So far it's taken you 4 tries to get your story right and you are still spinning.


I only expounded on what I initially said for your benefit, I didn't 'change' anything.

You, and you alone needed the further explanation.

I would say 'it's up to you to figure it out' but I know that's not possible in this case.



(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 7:06:02 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Long but thoughtful and enlightening read.

Overkill

An avalanche of unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially. What can we do about it?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/11/overkill-atul-gawande

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 7:33:51 PM   
bounty44


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Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		i know the emphasis of the article is slightly different than what im about to say, but indeed one of the underlying premises of it is that when people are themselves removed from having to pay personally for whatever they are "buying," expenses accrue in an out of control and wasteful fashion, and unfortunate things happen like what are described in the article.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 8:11:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

when people are themselves removed from having to pay personally for whatever they are "buying," expenses accrue in an out of control and wasteful fashion, and unfortunate things happen like what are described in the article.

I'm not sure that's the only factor driving healthcare costs, but it plays a role.

Two thoughts from my own medical misadventures:

(a) Chatting with Mom one evening about the challenge of finding just the right ostomy supplies--way harder than it sounds--I talked about ordering a variety to see which worked best. She cautioned about buying too much, and I breezily replied, "Oh, it doesn't matter. Insurance pays for it." As I heard the words leave my mouth, I thought, "Oh great. I've become part of the problem!"

(b) That said, I'm deeply grateful that when I needed to find an oncologist or the right pair of hands for a 12-hour operation that would forever change my anatomy, I could choose on the basis of medical prowess rather than price. Also that I didn't have to wrestle with whether I had the cash for, say, a CT scan to probe why my lungs were compromised.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/10/2016 8:43:07 PM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


i know the emphasis of the article is slightly different than what im about to say, but indeed one of the underlying premises of it is that when people are themselves removed from having to pay personally for whatever they are "buying," expenses accrue in an out of control and wasteful fashion, and unfortunate things happen like what are described in the article.


Then why are healthcare costs so much lower everywhere else? The cost of healthcare in the US is out of control because, just as occurred with the financial meltdown, the regulators are protecting the industry, not the tax payers.

In countries with universal healthcare, single payer based or not, the tax payers are far better protected than in than in the protect-industry-at-all-measures US, the citizen-fucking mindset in this country being same both before and during 'Obama care.'

You voted for these assholes. STFU with your bitching, this is the inevitable result of the industry protectors you stupidly voted for, just like with the financial fiasco.

The 'business friendly' party at work, enemy of tax payers.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 10/10/2016 8:51:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/11/2016 1:59:51 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
So, do you agree that everyone should have to buy insurance to cover themselves?

No. I think people should be responsible for the cost of their health care whether they pay cash, choose to use private insurance, or need to finance costs. I'm all for discussing ways for dealing with long-term care issues using any of those methods as long as citizens can choose whatever method they want.


quote:

That way, they don't show up at the ER with no money or insurance, get treated and the cost gets passed on down to you and me.

That would fall into the category of "the poor" which I've already mentioned.

I ask a yes/no question and you dodge it.
Noone besides the filthy rich can be guaranteed to cover their health care costs without insurance,
As for part 2 and your claim that it's "the poor" who weren't buying insurance before, I say BULLSHIT. I know too many personally who weren't poor but chose not to carry insurance because they'd rather spend the money on smokes or clothes or whatever and they knew they couldn't be turned away.
Huge bill? No problem, just declare bankruptcy.

Stop being deliberately obtuse because your partisanship demands it.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/11/2016 3:10:54 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Long but thoughtful and enlightening read.

Overkill

An avalanche of unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially. What can we do about it?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/11/overkill-atul-gawande



That was enlightening. From the article "The one that got me thinking, however, was a study of more than a million Medicare patients. It suggested that a huge proportion had received care that was simply a waste."

Gotta say considering this is a government run system, it doesn't surprise me a bit.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/11/2016 5:38:19 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

you want more doctors, lower costs and quicker access? get government out of the way. and to an extent, insurance companies too. when consumers don't see a direct cost to the product they are purchasing, they abuse the system.

That raises an interesting question. Healthcare functioned that way for much of U.S. history. What results did that system produce?


I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I think neither does anyone here on the forums unless they've become an amateur student of the medical history. but I can at least say a couple of things. one is, the amount of people who can become doctors has been regulated for most of the post industrial age. when I say "regulated", the better translation is "controlled and made somewhat scarce."

the other thing is---why should medicine and health care be an exception to free market principles that more or less serve to benefit the consumer in every other sector?

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/11/2016 5:39:13 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

No. I think people should be responsible for the cost of their health care whether they pay cash, choose to use private insurance, or need to finance costs.


Do you also feel that people should be responsible for the cost of fire and police protection or do you think that should fall on the taxpayer?


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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Bill Clinton criticising Obamacare - 10/11/2016 5:47:40 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: bounty44

ironically, we more or less accept that over time, free market principles tend to lower costs and increase efficiency across the board.

No we do not. That would be your ignorant unsubstrantiated opinion which until or unless it is validated will reamain worth the price of used shit paper.

its when governments and bureaucracy and other third party people get involved that inflation occurs, scarcity is created, costs go up, and efficiency goes down.

Cite please

so to me, as concerns liberals knowing what I just wrote above, its not about people accessing inexpensive, quality health care, but rather, increasing the footprint of government in the lives of people.

By that metric you would do away with fire and police protection, govt monopolies of utilities and highways?

you want more doctors, lower costs and quicker access? get government out of the way.

It is the ama and not the government that limit the number of doctors in this country.

and to an extent, insurance companies too. when consumers don't see a direct cost to the product they are purchasing, they abuse the system.


This would imply that you would set your house on fire so as to access the taxpayer supported fire department.

I know im more or less preaching to the choir rotten johnny, so I think im just echoing or adding on to your position.


Actually you are just babbling as usual.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 100
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