false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT

false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (Full Version)

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ohthat1percent -> false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:14:04 PM)
AGAIN TRIGGER WARNING AND SPOILER ALERT -- I am watching law and order and there is an interesting case that I want to put this out there for thoughts. i'm not sure if this should be in this General BDSM but as this is a BDSM site and people may encounter people who misrepresent or impersonate others - i.e., you have heard of a person in your community everyone admires and sees as the real thing but someone impersonates him to have sex with women as they think they are having sex with this "important" person of the BDSM community, that's why I put that here. I've worked in the legal world and part of that was in prosecution at one time, so I am always interested the take and interpretation of the law. Do you think this should be considered rape in the legal/criminal sense? To give a quick run - this is where the spoiler comes in -- so if you watch Law and Order don't read if you don't want to know what the episode is about. A man meets people on Hudson U and pretends to be the admission director and this woman lets him seduce her so he will let her son into Hudson U and she consensually had sex with him thinking he was the person he said he was. She finds out thereafter he isn't the admission director and the guy who impersonated the admissions director, was charged with rape. There is a criminal impersonation law. But is it rape -- was the question. Now I am taking it in a somewhat different direction and am using something many people may find themselves facing -- and it may not be impersonating a person, but misrepresenting themselves as a person they are not. Do you believe if someone misrepresents themselves and identifies themselves to be someone they are not legally identified as and a person has consensual sex, is it rape? Consent is what defines rape in the legal sense. Is it rape to misrepresent yourself to someone knowingly and that person does not consent to have sex with the real identity that is you -- or does consent have to do with the body, i.e., you are there, with a person, and you agree to have sex with his body. Does the real identity make a difference in consent? A scenario I keep thinking of is, you meet a guy online or even off line and he advises who he is and he has this life blah blah blah. However, after you have sex, you find out that isn't his real name, he is married and nothing he told you was the truth and you would not have had sex with him if you knew the truth. Another scenario is like above -- you have heard about this important man in the BDSM community that everyone raves about and speaks about being the real thing or someone important to the BDSM, and some guy impersonates him and you end up having sex with him and then find out after, its not the person you thought he was. Is that rape? And you would never have had sex with this person if you knew he wasn't this person he was impersonating.. EDITED TO ADD -- IF NO, why. and should it be ? If yes, why? Just a little Wednesday night what the heck let's see what people think thread. No right or wrong answers, just curious. If we could try and keep it within the scenario and not say well people should do this that and the other or shouldn't not vet people etc. I'd like to keep it within discussion of should this be considered rape.

stef -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:18:43 PM)
As to the L&O episode; it's not rape, but the DA could make a case for larceny by false promise. As to the second scenario; no, it's not rape.

Greatlilbabygirl -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:26:29 PM)
Not rape in my opinion. If you're that concerned about if a guy is who he says he is, ask for identifying information upfrount, like real name, fb page, etc. If it's just the idea of him you like then you lived through fantasy. I don't get how this is rape.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:28:17 PM)
Again, i'd like to keep it just about the law and not start a big how to stay safe or identify people. That's a different discussion.

Alecta -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:30:21 PM)
Not rape, since the sex was consensual. The transactional aspect of it has no bearing on the question of whether the act was consensual. But then comes the larceny and fraud charges for impersonation and bribery.

Greatlilbabygirl -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent Again, i'd like to keep it just about the law and not start a big how to stay safe or identify people. That's a different discussion. The legally no, not rape. If you call this rape then anytime a guy or girl lied about something to sleep with someone is rape. That's just crazy.

Lucylastic -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:38:39 PM)
just my 2 cents without more info. deception/criminal impersonation definitely, but not rape. She was prepared to sleep with him for a "favour" She got deceived. Guy is a scumbag for that deserves time, but yeah she is no princess, I wouldnt convict on rape. Note,....I havent seen the episode.

Greatlilbabygirl -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 7:54:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic just my 2 cents without more info. deception/criminal impersonation definitely, but not rape. She was prepared to sleep with him for a "favour" She got deceived. Guy is a scumbag for that deserves time, but yeah she is no princess, I wouldnt convict on rape. Note,....I havent seen the episode. But legally the character or motivations of the victim shouldn't matter, though defense attorneys are professional victim blamers and character assassins.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:04:41 PM)
But both character and motivation is legally allowed to be brought before the jury, defense is allowed to bring up the character as it goes to credibility as does motivation -- again the concept of credibility exists. Defense attorneys wouldn't be doing their job and representing their client ethically, if they did not use all concepts of law they are allowed to defend their client. If you look at it unbiasedly, the prosecutor is also allowed to use everything at their legal disposal to attack the character of the defendant -- again its credibility. Ironically, people always say its wrong for defense attorneys, but when prosecutors do it to someone who is presumed innocent, its okay. In rape cases, credibility is key in many cases, especially in "known" rape cases.

Lucylastic -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:07:46 PM)
So are prosecutors. But when hasnt a victims "motives" or "character" in rape cases been brought up? Especially when/if the person being charged/tried says it was consensual.

Alecta -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:11:49 PM)
There isn't really a case for credibility where the raped already states that she slept with him thinking he was someone else, I don't think. Credibility regarding a rape would be relevant in establishing if the sex happened with the victim's knowledge and consent. She establishes she'd slept with him consensually, so that part is over.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:16:16 PM)
No, according to the victim, she didn't sleep with him consensually, she slept with the person she thought he was. She did not consent to sleep with the person he was. That's where this became a case and the question of consent arose. She admits to consenting to and having sex with Mr. BLAH BLAH, but she did not consent to, and would not have consented to, having sex with Mr. sleeze sleeze and when Mr. Sleeze Sleeze had sex with her without her knowledge of who he actually was, and in fact knowingly impersonated another person to specifically have sex with her and other women, it was a concept of rape. I am mulling this over, i can't wrap my head around its rape but i can see the argument.

Greta75 -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:27:05 PM)
Not rape. It is consensual sex. Gosh, you know, NONE of my fuck buddies know my real identity. Even if they been fucking me for 2 years. I like to be able to disappear whenever I want to, so I never give them any real information about myself. False Name. False address. False job. Everything. I am protecting myself. As I got a bad experience of stopping to see a fuck buddy and he harassed the hell outta me and tried to blackmail me to want to pressure me to continue to having sex with him. I guess I'd be raping them all since I had sex with them under false identity.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:32:33 PM)
You never said if your fuck buddies know you lie to them about your identity? If they do, then no it wouldn't be because they are consenting to sex knowing you aren't who you said you are. If they don't know you lie to them -- if this ever became an actual charge, you would be committing a crime such as rape.

Greta75 -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent No, according to the victim, she didn't sleep with him consensually, she slept with the person she thought he was. She did not consent to sleep with the person he was. That's where this became a case and the question of consent arose. She admits to consenting to and having sex with Mr. BLAH BLAH, but she did not consent to, and would not have consented to, having sex with Mr. sleeze sleeze and when Mr. Sleeze Sleeze had sex with her without her knowledge of who he actually was, and in fact knowingly impersonated another person to specifically have sex with her and other women, it was a concept of rape. I am mulling this over, i can't wrap my head around its rape but i can see the argument. There is another situation, where a man disguise as her husband in the dark, and fucked her and she fucked him thinking it's her husband. That might be rape. But in this case! I am sure she totally saw the physical appearance of this person. And decided it was good enough to have sex with him. Doesn't matter what his identity is. To me, this is completely consensual.

Greta75 -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:35:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent You never said if your fuck buddies know you lie to them about your identity? If they do, then no it wouldn't be because they are consenting to sex knowing you aren't who you said you are. If they don't know you lie to them -- if this ever became an actual charge, you would be committing a crime such as rape. Maybe in the US, but probably not in my country. My fuck buddies are all unaware I am lying about my identity of course. If they knew, they will be pressuring me forever for my real identity or do the butthurt thing where I don't trust them to this extent, despite knowing them for so long. But fact of the matter is, some people I can feel in my gut I cannot trust. Most people anyway. My best sex and my best friend, knows my real identity, because I know I can trust them to always have my back. And interestingly, with both men, they didn't get mad at me at all about it, they understood and even supported me on this issue that I should protect myself and stay safe. Took awhile for me to trust and reveal. And anyway, it doesn't bother me if they lie about their identity too. End of the day. I am just looking for sexual compatibility. I don't care who you are, what you work as, whatever. The only criteria is that, you give me nirvana level sex. You can call yourself whatever you want. OR be whoever you want. I don't care. I just want you for sex. Anyway, it's no big deal. It's just casual sex. And in casual sex, they fuck a woman they find physically attractive, period. All other things does not matter. It's not finding a spouse ya know. This is what I mean I can have vanilla sex with men I trust only 10%. I trust them so little, I refuse to even give them my real identity. Blackmails later would not be fun to deal with.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:44:18 PM)
See that's where i have a conundrum -- i value honesty and i keep trying to put myself mentally in the position that some one impersonated someone or advised they were one person and turned out to be another -- would i feel raped and then lol the legal person in me asks me if it would be rape in the legal sense because i didn't consent to having sex with so and so, but with blah blah. Then i keep thinking- rape is a physical action and if you consent to having sex with the body in front of you -- its not rape because emotional rape is not a crime. lol i keep seeing it more as a civil damages concept for emotional distress than a criminal actin. But on some level i think -- hell yes they should be arrested and sent to jail.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:47:10 PM)
I was thinking along the lines of a blind woman.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:52:18 PM)
quote: I am mulling this over, i can't wrap my head around its rape but i can see the argument. Yeah, that's pretty much where I am as well. In the end I think it is scummy as fuck, but no it isn't rape.

Greta75 -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/5/2016 8:56:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent I was thinking along the lines of a blind woman. If a woman is blind, then it is rape under false identity. I think physical attraction plays a part. But if a woman is blind. She has no choice but to trust you are who you say you are. I mean I don't know, on another hand. I feel like a blind woman has hands that works as good as sight and can feel better than a regular woman with sight, in the dark, IF the man is who he say he is.

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