quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Sigh...

The "well regulated militia" is an enabling clause stating why the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
___________________________________________
The cost of $150.00 per firearm to implement micro-stamping is due to the record keeping, labor for back fitting, and certification to show a given micro-stamp is tied to a given firearm serial number. Since it takes about 5 minutes to grind off the micro-stamp on a firing pin and even less time to strip down and replace a firing pin; the added cost to a firearm is totally ineffectual in gaining any benefit to criminal justice prosecution. Micro-stamping is just more onerous bureaucratic requirement with no benefit to anyone.
_________________________________________________

There are already background check requirements in place to purchase a firearm. Alluding that there are none is fantasy based inflammatory rhetoric. We don't need more legislation we just need the administration to enforce the laws already on the books. But, enforcing the laws already in effect doesn't make political brownie points like screaming things like "gun show loophole". BTW, the "gun show loophole" is a total fantasy fabrication to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Forget changing firing pins, how many shots will it take for the repeated impact to distort the microstamping to the point that it is useless, it is just excuse to make it harder to afford firearms. It is at its heart racist, because since blacks have a higher poverty rate than any other group they will be more heavily penalized.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable.

The fabrication fantasy is what?
Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole.

In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state.

Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable.

The fabrication fantasy is what?
Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole.

In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state.

Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns?

I did mention that private sales between individuals do not require a background check.

Again, there is no gun show loophole. Background checks are required for commercial sale of a firearm. If one is selling guns at a gun show; you are in the business of making a profit from gun sales and require a FFL and are required to do the concomitant background checks. When registering for a table at a gun show to sell actual firearms and not accessories a copy of your FFL is very often required so the promoter can't be considered as culpable in promoting an illegal firearm sale. The "gun show loophole" that needs closing was a myth used to scare the gullible.

FYI, how about some actual info on whether you need a FFL to sell firearms at a gun show? Hmm?

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

By your own statement; "the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows" and not from merchants at the gun show. Why not close the "Craigslist loophole" or the "want ads loophole" as well?
Yep, "gun show loophole" is a myth. A gun show is not a "private sale" and in actual practice you will find you will do the required background checks when purchasing a firearm at a gun show. And, if the illegal firearm dealer is working out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot is caught; he will be up on federal charges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable.

The fabrication fantasy is what?
Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole.

In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state.

Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns?

I did mention that private sales between individuals do not require a background check.

Again, there is no gun show loophole. Background checks are required for commercial sale of a firearm. If one is selling guns at a gun show; you are in the business of making a profit from gun sales and require a FFL and are required to do the concomitant background checks. When registering for a table at a gun show to sell actual firearms and not accessories a copy of your FFL is very often required so the promoter can't be considered as culpable in promoting an illegal firearm sale. The "gun show loophole" that needs closing was a myth used to scare the gullible.

FYI, how about some actual info on whether you need a FFL to sell firearms at a gun show? Hmm?

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

By your own statement; "the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows" and not from merchants at the gun show. Why not close the "Craigslist loophole" or the "want ads loophole" as well?
Yep, "gun show loophole" is a myth. A gun show is not a "private sale" and in actual practice you will find you will do the required background checks when purchasing a firearm at a gun show. And, if the illegal firearm dealer is working out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot is caught; he will be up on federal charges.

Question-I haven't read the links, and I am basing this on what I have seen myself, but this may not be allowed anymore or may be a state-by-state thing, I don't know. But what I always saw as part of the 'gun show loophole' was the number of private individuals, not dealers, that sold guns at gun shows. My ex was always wheeling and dealing anything he could get his hands on, and guns were no exception. We always went to every gun show within 100 miles (which in AL is a lot, lol). And he always went in with a gun that he wanted to sell or trade. I remember rifles and shotguns he would wear slung over his shoulder, with the gun hanging off his back, and a sign telling the make and asking price. We never left a show that he didn't successfully sell or trade. And there were always several people doing that.

When we entered the show, he always had to show the gun to the sheriffs booth at the entrance, and they always put a long zip tie through the barrel and out the end, to ensure that it was unloaded and stayed that way. But he didn't have to do any other verification.

I knew that for the most part, the 'gun show loophole' was no longer an issue, but I have always seen this aspect of it to be the 'loop-hole' to the fabled 'gun show loophole'. Yes these circumstances were almost always one gun per person, not a whole inventory like a dealer would have, and would not be every person at the show, only some. But there always seemed to be lots of people selling their guns this way, and if this is still permitted, it seems like it is an ideal situation to be able to buy or sell a gun without any checks being made, with a built in client base and/or inventory to choose from. It was guaranteed that if we were looking for a specific type of gun, or one for a specific purpose, we could invariably find that being sold by private individuals at gun shows, the larger the show the more likely it was.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You live in Jefferson county. I would think that you are familiar with the Bulletin board or something like it. If you and I run into each other at a gun show and I sell you a gun, that is no different than if I advertise said gun in the bulletin board and you answer the add. It is a private sale, not a loophole. Now as already pointed out someone is selling a dozen guns or so every weekend at a gun show the he is already in violation of the law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You live in Jefferson county. I would think that you are familiar with the Bulletin board or something like it. If you and I run into each other at a gun show and I sell you a gun, that is no different than if I advertise said gun in the bulletin board and you answer the add. It is a private sale, not a loophole. Now as already pointed out someone is selling a dozen guns or so every weekend at a gun show the he is already in violation of the law.

I actually have no idea what the bulletin board is. If it is gun related, I haven't been in those circles in a while, which is why I was asking if you could still buy guns privately at gun shows. For all I knew, those laws had changed by now.

I do know that you can buy guns online and through ads. But you can't deny the convenience of having several guns available for purview, on hand, in a negotiating situation, which can be closed privately with no record. Much more convenient and attractive way to purchase than answering ads, where the seller may insist on records, where there is less room for negotiating price because it is only the two of you, and you may have to go through this several times before you get just the gun you want.

I say 'may' have to do these things. Buying a gun is not like buying a car or furniture. As long as you know that the gun is the model you were looking for, there are less things to consider when buying a used car or furniture then there is buying a gun.

But as far as private sells at gun shows, like I said, I have always thought of those as 'loopholes' to the 'gun show loophole' that isn't talked about much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
True you can buy guns online, but did you know they have to be shipped to a dealer who has to run a background check before he can pass it on to you?

quote:


You also seem to think that dealers at gun shows don't do background checks, this is not true, when a dealer is at a gun show he has to follow the same rules as he would have to follow if he was in his store, the "Loop Hole" is that, in this state, you don't have to a background check for PRIVATE sales.

quote:

If that is what you want say so and don't hide behind a fictitious gun show loop hole

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

No, I did not know that. Is the same true when you answer an ad by an individual and meet in person, as I do when I buy something off Craigslist?

That depends.

A If he is going to ship it to you it has to go through a dealer.
B If he is going to meet you it depends on the state, comes under each states laws on private transfers.
C If I pass a firearm to a friend in Ca I have to get a background check.
D No background check is required to transfer a firearm in a private in person sale in Alabama.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

My point was asking if individuals could still sell without background checks, or did the law extend to all sales at gun shows requiring background checks.


No, because the people running the show can't enforce it.
Making it a requirement is just a tool for driving gun shows out of business.

quote:

I didn't mean you as in you personally it was the people who call the fact that you can make private sales at a gun show without a background check a gun show loophole are trying to mislead you.

quote:

It is not a loophole period, the sales are made in compliance with state law.

quote:

If for example I sell a firearm away from a gun show and it is legal to do so why should it being at a gun show make any difference.

quote:

If you want a background check on private sales say that is what you want and don't use it as a weapon against dealers who are doing what they are supposed to.