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RE: No one has the right... - 2/3/2017 10:48:22 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

And, considering the world wide epidemic of terminal stupidity, I am of the opinion that evolution has stopped and de-evolution has begun.


ftfy

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: No one has the right... - 2/3/2017 10:58:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

But those that have 'found god' have only found [him] in their minds.

Where else, precisely, would you expect to find God? In the park feeding the ducks?

K.


You make my point...nowhere in reality.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: No one has the right... - 2/3/2017 11:03:37 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

But those that have 'found god' have only found [him] in their minds.
If you haven't found God, how would you know where others have found God?

In any case, I have to ask without a mind does a person find anything?

So isn't everything found in our minds?

;-)


No, things or 'gods' if real, must exist in reality not just in thought. From what all of those others who claim to have 'found god' can't prove it or show him (or her) too me. I need real evidence...not just claims.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: No one has the right... - 2/3/2017 11:06:35 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Some people feel a need for a god and obviously millions believe that so passionately...they will imagine one.
And vice versa, there are those who will imagine there isn't one.


Those that don't claim the existence of anything unproven to exist, don't need to imagine any god that also doesn't exist. They know that there is no evidence available to prove there...is a god.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: No one has the right... - 2/3/2017 11:08:45 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

And they will be disappointed when they die.
That's comedy, that is.

Which begs the question; what do you think death is?

;-)

I know you didn't ask me but death is the end of life. In humans, detectable by the end of brain waves.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 4:46:35 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

But those that have 'found god' have only found [him] in their minds.
If you haven't found God, how would you know where others have found God?

In any case, I have to ask without a mind does a person find anything?

So isn't everything found in our minds?

;-)


No, things or 'gods' if real, must exist in reality not just in thought. From what all of those others who claim to have 'found god' can't prove it or show him (or her) too me. I need real evidence...not just claims.
You missed the point entirely.

Humans cannot experience anything except with their mind.

If there was absolutely nothing real except for our minds there would be no way to know it. The only known fact for mankind is; I think therefore I exist.

So what really is this "reality" you are so sure of?

As for your need for proof; first, go to a person totally blind from birth and prove to him that color exists. You and I know that color exists but that blind person will never know for himself that color exists, no matter how many times he is told it exists. What "real evidence" can you give that blind person? Does that mean that because you can't give that blind person "real evidence" that will convince him that color exists, that color doesn't exist? If you asked a five year old child that can see if color exists, he would probably look at you funny but say; "yes, it does". And if you asked him to prove it, he would probably say; "just look around".

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 4:55:25 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Some people feel a need for a god and obviously millions believe that so passionately...they will imagine one.
And vice versa, there are those who will imagine there isn't one.


Those that don't claim the existence of anything unproven to exist, don't need to imagine any god that also doesn't exist. They know that there is no evidence available to prove there...is a god.
Once again, unproven only to you.

History is fulled with examples of people who were given proof they denied.



(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 5:01:59 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

And they will be disappointed when they die.
That's comedy, that is.

Which begs the question; what do you think death is?

;-)

I know you didn't ask me but death is the end of life. In humans, detectable by the end of brain waves.
That's okay, Thanx.

The reason I asked was that WhoreMods said people "will be disappointed when they die" and I thought that if WhoreMods thought death was what you said it was it would seem to be difficult to be disappointed when you die. Perhaps disappointed while dying but not disappointed after they died.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 7:44:14 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Actually, yeah yeah.
can life be created from chemicals. yes. has it been done. yes

You don't get to make up your own questions.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

That hasn't been done. Life has not been created de novo in the lab. Ventner started with a living cell and replaced its DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have met the necessary and sufficient condtions of the statement that claims its a real piss cutter.

No, you haven't. And you won't be doing so anytime soon.

Nobody really understands how life got started on Earth ~NASA

Have a nice day.

K.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 8:03:06 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Actually, yeah yeah.
can life be created from chemicals. yes. has it been done. yes

You don't get to make up your own questions.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

That hasn't been done. Life has not been created de novo in the lab. Ventner started with a living cell and replaced its DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have met the necessary and sufficient condtions of the statement that claims its a real piss cutter.

No, you haven't. And you won't be doing so anytime soon.

Nobody really understands how life got started on Earth ~NASA

Have a nice day.

K.



It's the watch illustration, reality is like watch that can't be opened. We know what it does and we can make guesses about how it does it but we will never know what actually is going on inside.

Many people don't realize science is only a conjectural model of what is thought to be going on.

That is what the theory of Evolution is; a conjectural model of what is thought to be going on. Even if they actually create "real life" in a test tube does that prove that evolution is a fact? No, it just proves "real life" can be created in a test tube. So? The fact is until they invent a time machine and go back and see what actually happened there is no way to prove that Evolution is in fact the way life came to Earth.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 8:29:33 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		bravo, nice posts. I would put everything we think we know under that umbrella. What we call 'laws' of physics are not law at all, as you said best fit conjectual models, often times not even that, and just method of thinking to get the same or a consitent conclusion, to create the same picture when passing information from one to the next.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 10:20:21 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Actually, yeah yeah.
can life be created from chemicals. yes. has it been done. yes

You don't get to make up your own questions.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

That hasn't been done. Life has not been created de novo in the lab. Ventner started with a living cell and replaced its DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have met the necessary and sufficient condtions of the statement that claims its a real piss cutter.

No, you haven't. And you won't be doing so anytime soon.

Nobody really understands how life got started on Earth ~NASA

Have a nice day.

K.



Sorry, now you are have solicited Fs across the board.

We were not arguing your strawman, I never said anyone understands how it got started.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4995834/mpage_3/key_chemical/tm.htm#4997175

There is the post, which of course you are trying to clip out of context and project some nothing to do with the post into some sort of incorrect god particle.

Has a human (not god) produced such a chemical reaction. Yes. nothing else. De novo? not a requirement, and cannot be because when you are typing sentient or not, we will call you life, there is no shot at de novo, fixed point in time, that ship has sailed. Now I will admit that there was some eliding of a pure and wonderous sponteneity but the thing was put out as in the 'lab' intelligence is a necessary condition of the term 'lab'. He started with a computer model of the cell, and created not from an original cell, but from chemicals, now why did he do that? He didnt have millions of years, nor did he have the patience to sit there with a pipette and make millions of chemical reactions for the next millenia to do the necessary stuff. People want to see that shit, NOW!

given the permutations of the universe, and the variables inherent in that miasma, we are understandably a little light on the reactions. But random reactions of that magnitude do not require a god or intelligence.

Since you are using anecdotes to portray the synecdoche, and attempting to prove that there is 'intelligent design' you will tell me how Jaques Cousteau could have helped Noah get these guys shimmying up in the ark, and throw a live volcano in there and that rather unremarkable vignette never made it to the bible, but sending out a dove for an olive branch did.

http://www.seasky.org/deep-sea/giant-tube-worm.html

And nope, atheists have no issue with it, and it is not in anyway an essential problem.

so, its simply a matter (at this time) of there not being tools that will allow the precise manipulation of atoms to build a cell.

I can say with the same certainty that there do not exist the tools for you to build a sun in the comfort of your own home.

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-made-the-best-artificial-sperm-yet-and-they-re-breeding-mice-with-it

So, until we have the tools or the time, we use the start of stuff that we can work with.

Simply because we own a penis, does not require we have the intelligence to operate one, and the world is rife with those situations.

So, the nirvana fallacy is answered with fallacy. Still, the gravamen is clear, there isnt any proof it requires God or intelligence.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 12:24:50 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Sorry, now you are have solicited Fs across the board.

We were not arguing your strawman, I never said anyone understands how it got started.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4995834/mpage_3/key_chemical/tm.htm#4997175

There is the post, which of course you are trying to clip out of context and project some nothing to do with the post into some sort of incorrect god particle.

Bullshit. This is the post you responded to when our exchange began:

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Mr Rodgers How would you explain the first molicues creation if it weren't devine intervention? Just askin cause you are entitled to your belief system :D

Darwinian evolution??

Well actually, no. Biological evolution presupposes biology. The origins of life are something we haven't nailed down yet.

Life begins with a chemical reaction.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

This was your response:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yes, and they have done it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/7745868/Scientist-Craig-Venter-creates-life-for-first-time-in-laboratory-sparking-debate-about-playing-god.html
http://www.space.com/29057-life-building-blocks-created-nasa-lab.html
http://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/03/scientists-create-revolutionary-synthetic-life-form
http://www.livescience.com/54165-artificial-bacterium-has-smallest-genome.html

And my reply was, no they haven't.

They still haven't. Have a nice day.

K.



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 1:01:11 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		Technical shenanigans the last couple of days - so I have not had time to read all 5 pages…are they worth a read & can someone give me the gist, and who got tarred and feathered thus far, and who is asking for a bucket of biblical piranhas to be hurled over them – yes that was the plague scourge of Egypt, then it was shoes I think next, and I am still praying for that rampaging hoard of nymphomaniacs from outerspace, in boots and corsets – not to be confused with the 40ish virgin thingy and its inherent maths.

I always found it curious he declared himself the last prophet of God.

Slippernotes:
1: What if god had a bit of change of mind.
2: Not read the book, but it’s one singular book, but a cacophony of contradictions
3: Lived in a cave when he wrote, not sure he could write, oral tradition…then someone wrotey it, or did they, and it was lost, and then reassembled…I believe that is the actual History of that book?

As much as part of me says I would ban that religion-book firstly – no can say that sorry. Wonders if anyone knows why I sat that?

Religion I do not like, but I can tolerate it – date/marry people of other heinous denominations – writer’s prerogative for I am a god less heretic nowadays.

The only newer religion I know than that one is those mad cult bastard in Americashire and that Scientology one think he dug up that book…and why is it when Jehovah witnesses come to my door its always 2 hot women?

Oh, and trump speaks for god

Christianity is dying:
When I was younger there were 4 masses on a Sunday, nowadays there are 1 – seems the easiest example to cite

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: No one has the right... - 2/4/2017 8:09:50 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Actually, yeah yeah.
can life be created from chemicals. yes. has it been done. yes

You don't get to make up your own questions.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

That hasn't been done. Life has not been created de novo in the lab. Ventner started with a living cell and replaced its DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have met the necessary and sufficient condtions of the statement that claims its a real piss cutter.

No, you haven't. And you won't be doing so anytime soon.

Nobody really understands how life got started on Earth ~NASA

Have a nice day.

K.



It's the watch illustration, reality is like watch that can't be opened. We know what it does and we can make guesses about how it does it but we will never know what actually is going on inside.

Many people don't realize science is only a conjectural model of what is thought to be going on.

That is what the theory of Evolution is; a conjectural model of what is thought to be going on. Even if they actually create "real life" in a test tube does that prove that evolution is a fact? No, it just proves "real life" can be created in a test tube. So? The fact is until they invent a time machine and go back and see what actually happened there is no way to prove that Evolution is in fact the way life came to Earth.

The watch illustration fails when it comes to biological processes. We do have very good, detailed understanding of schemes at the atomic and molecular levels. We know how DNA acts as a template to produce structural and catalytic proteins. We know how energy is exchanged in photosynthetic and mitochondrial processes. We have huge volumes of knowledge of internal mechanisms down to quantum energy states and exchanges. Tick tock tick tock.

"Only a conjectural model" is a deceptive offering by you. Models may be conjectural but they are constructed from a solid base of empirical evidence, predictions, and testings. Evolution is solidly supported by genome scans and comparative genetics.

It is necessary to separate Evolution from Abiogenesis. They are distinct disciplines. AFAIK, no evolutionists rely upon abiogenetic developments to support evolution models.

Has life been created in a lab from rudimentary minerals and gases? I don't think so. But amino acids have been shown to occur from methane and ammonia and carbon dioxide mixtures infused with energy. Amino acids are the constituent molecules for the construction of proteins.

Another issue to be considered is that biological molecules may have arisen spontaneously through different mechanisms under different natural conditions. No reason why it was just one event in one specific friendly environment. Chemical bonds are tenacious.

Scientists are not "making guesses" about processes; they have been demonstrating likely processes with high degrees of probability.

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock . . . . . . .



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: No one has the right... - 2/6/2017 12:31:36 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		sorry thread

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 2/6/2017 12:33:38 PM >

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: No one has the right... - 2/6/2017 1:11:04 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Sorry, now you are have solicited Fs across the board.

We were not arguing your strawman, I never said anyone understands how it got started.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4995834/mpage_3/key_chemical/tm.htm#4997175

There is the post, which of course you are trying to clip out of context and project some nothing to do with the post into some sort of incorrect god particle.

Bullshit. This is the post you responded to when our exchange began:

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Mr Rodgers How would you explain the first molicues creation if it weren't devine intervention? Just askin cause you are entitled to your belief system :D

Darwinian evolution??

Well actually, no. Biological evolution presupposes biology. The origins of life are something we haven't nailed down yet.

Life begins with a chemical reaction.

should be easy to reproduce that very first "chemical reaction" (the one where "life" came from "non life") in a laboratory then right?

This was your response:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yes, and they have done it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/7745868/Scientist-Craig-Venter-creates-life-for-first-time-in-laboratory-sparking-debate-about-playing-god.html
http://www.space.com/29057-life-building-blocks-created-nasa-lab.html
http://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/03/scientists-create-revolutionary-synthetic-life-form
http://www.livescience.com/54165-artificial-bacterium-has-smallest-genome.html

And my reply was, no they haven't.

They still haven't. Have a nice day.

K.




And they did. from chemicals, non life to life. They still have.

have a nicer day.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: No one has the right... - 2/6/2017 8:22:37 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The watch illustration fails when it comes to biological processes. We do have very good, detailed understanding of schemes at the atomic and molecular levels. We know how DNA acts as a template to produce structural and catalytic proteins. We know how energy is exchanged in photosynthetic and mitochondrial processes. We have huge volumes of knowledge of internal mechanisms down to quantum energy states and exchanges. Tick tock tick tock.

"Only a conjectural model" is a deceptive offering by you. Models may be conjectural but they are constructed from a solid base of empirical evidence, predictions, and testings. Evolution is solidly supported by genome scans and comparative genetics.

It is necessary to separate Evolution from Abiogenesis. They are distinct disciplines. AFAIK, no evolutionists rely upon abiogenetic developments to support evolution models.

Has life been created in a lab from rudimentary minerals and gases? I don't think so. But amino acids have been shown to occur from methane and ammonia and carbon dioxide mixtures infused with energy. Amino acids are the constituent molecules for the construction of proteins.

Another issue to be considered is that biological molecules may have arisen spontaneously through different mechanisms under different natural conditions. No reason why it was just one event in one specific friendly environment. Chemical bonds are tenacious.

Scientists are not "making guesses" about processes; they have been demonstrating likely processes with high degrees of probability.

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock . . . . . . .


One of the greatest physicists of all, Albert Einstein in 1938 wrote:
Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world. In our endeavor to understand reality we are somewhat like a man trying to understand the mechanism of a closed watch. He sees the face and the moving hands, even hears its ticking, but he has no way of opening the case. If he is ingenious he may form some picture of a mechanism which could be responsible for all the things he observes, but he may never be quite sure his picture is the only one which could explain his observations. He will never be able to compare his picture with the real mechanism and he cannot even imagine the possibility of the meaning of such a comparison.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 98
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