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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 8:56:55 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Adopt the French system that takes half your income in taxes, but provides for all healthcare costs and retirement benefits.

With income tax, State tax, property tax, sales tax and on and on, they already do take half.

Well, looking as you do from a perspective of moral relativism, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Keep your eye on that voice mental patient. It's probably the stupidest thing you've said in a while. I won't even try to explain the idiocy. That voice is not your friend.

You are the feclgobbling nutsucker who retardedly cast yourself as a moral relativist when you meant mentally deficient toiletlicker, wilbur.

Actually no. That was sarcasm for the morally deficient leftist. If one or two of your other voices had been paying attention mental patient, I'm sure you would have caught that. I know you would have. That's why I said it was stupid. Obviously you were a couple of voices down.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 8:58:28 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

It is immoral, for many reasons

You have to take the money away from someone to do it, that's stealing. Government is notoriously corrupt and inefficient, so it is wasteful. Politicians use taxpayer money to buy votes with such programs, so motivations are very often impure

For the same reasons you can't provide people with everything you need as I suggested above, it is cruel to get people hooked and dependent on government handouts, especially when government may not always be there. Our current debt is unsustainable and something's got to give



money isnt "moral"




From a morally relativistic position that's nonsense, yet I don't expect you to understand.


As you are a conservative american talking about moral relativism
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAH


Absolutely. Using sarcasm to point out the idiocy of you discussing morals. I do notice the other sock already made the same mistaken comment.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:00:57 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Interesting if bizarre characterization.

Let's go with the "corny projects."

Start with repairing roads and bridges.

I've paid about half a dollar tax on a gallon of gas for years. That money was always supposed to be spent on roads and bridges but hasn't. Here in the People's Rublic of California it just gets dumped into leftist vote buying projects. So, ya, I'm real interested in giving them more money to do what they told us they would do for years. Please try and be less of an idiot.

So your solution is just not pay, let the roads and bridges go to hell.

Please try and be less of an idiot.

Well, that was a really phoequing stupid thing to say. Let's see if you can figure out why. Let's start with the fact that I have paid for decades through a very high gas tax. In this state, the state and the Feds make more than the oil companies on a gallon of gas. But, your wonderful government doesn't use the money for roads and bridges, as they promised, and as the law requires. They just spend it on bullet trains to nowhere and cleaning up the urine and feces the homeless leave on sidewalks.

First, I'm not going to have a pissing match with someone being a child. Clearly, roads and bridges need attention. You've constructed a straw man to maintain we can never do that. That's patently absurd, and I'm not gonna play "Nuh-uh" with you. Especially not while you're being a dick about it to boot.

Second, I don't give a fuck about California's politics. You go deal with that. In particular, you have this dysfunctional populist notion of referendums, which lets the public decide both (a) don't cut services and (b) don't increase revenue or spending, which hamstrings administration, now not allowed to make the necessary decisions part of administering anything. So your economy keeps sucking.

Wait 'til your crops rot in the fields as a result of Trump's ranting about immigration. That'll be a hoot.

But sure, in the meantime, call a lot of people idiots. That'll get your roads and bridges set!

Fucking moron. It was a mistake to unblock you. Fixing that now.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:03:14 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Interesting if bizarre characterization.

Let's go with the "corny projects."

Start with repairing roads and bridges.

I've paid about half a dollar tax on a gallon of gas for years. That money was always supposed to be spent on roads and bridges but hasn't. Here in the People's Rublic of California it just gets dumped into leftist vote buying projects. So, ya, I'm real interested in giving them more money to do what they told us they would do for years. Please try and be less of an idiot.

So your solution is just not pay, let the roads and bridges go to hell.

Please try and be less of an idiot.

Well, that was a really phoequing stupid thing to say. Let's see if you can figure out why. Let's start with the fact that I have paid for decades through a very high gas tax. In this state, the state and the Feds make more than the oil companies on a gallon of gas. But, your wonderful government doesn't use the money for roads and bridges, as they promised, and as the law requires. They just spend it on bullet trains to nowhere and cleaning up the urine and feces the homeless leave on sidewalks.

First, I'm not going to have a pissing match with someone being a child. Clearly, roads and bridges need attention. You've constructed a straw man to maintain we can never do that. That's patently absurd, and I'm not gonna pay "Nuh-uh" with you. Especially not while you're being a dick about it to boot.

Second, I don't give a fuck about California's politics. You go deal with that. In particular, you have this dysfunctional populist notion of referendums, which lets the public decide both (a) don't cut services and (b) don't increase revenue or spending, which hamstrings administration, now not allowed to make the necessary decisions part of administering anything. So your economy keeps sucking.

Wait 'til your crops rot in the fields as a result of Trump's ranting about immigration. That'll be a hoot.

But sure, in the meantime, call a lot of people idiots. That'll get your roads and bridges set!

Fucking moron. It was a mistake to unblock you. Fixing that now.

You always seem to get to that same point where your wits/understanding fails you and then have a hissy fit. Please do block me. I don't want to inflict a wider perspective of the world on you. I don't enjoy hurting people.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:05:39 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

It is immoral, for many reasons

You have to take the money away from someone to do it, that's stealing. Government is notoriously corrupt and inefficient, so it is wasteful. Politicians use taxpayer money to buy votes with such programs, so motivations are very often impure

For the same reasons you can't provide people with everything you need as I suggested above, it is cruel to get people hooked and dependent on government handouts, especially when government may not always be there. Our current debt is unsustainable and something's got to give



money isnt "moral"




From a morally relativistic position that's nonsense, yet I don't expect you to understand.


As you are a conservative american talking about moral relativism
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAH


Absolutely. Using sarcasm to point out the idiocy of you discussing morals. I do notice the other sock already made the same mistaken comment.


ANd I pointed out you have no place to come from regarding knowledge or morality. that wasnt sarcasm, you thought it meant something


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(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:05:40 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Page of "quotes" my favourite - I am going to bill you lot one click, or, forever the humanitarian is wicked, a sound thrashing.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:11:33 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

I don't want to inflict a wider perspective of the world on you. I don't enjoy hurting people.

You dont have a " world view" perspective, you show it in every post. Thats what makes it painful for lefties and furrigners.


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(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:14:33 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

It is immoral, for many reasons

You have to take the money away from someone to do it, that's stealing. Government is notoriously corrupt and inefficient, so it is wasteful. Politicians use taxpayer money to buy votes with such programs, so motivations are very often impure

For the same reasons you can't provide people with everything you need as I suggested above, it is cruel to get people hooked and dependent on government handouts, especially when government may not always be there. Our current debt is unsustainable and something's got to give



money isnt "moral"




From a morally relativistic position that's nonsense, yet I don't expect you to understand.


As you are a conservative american talking about moral relativism
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAH


Absolutely. Using sarcasm to point out the idiocy of you discussing morals. I do notice the other sock already made the same mistaken comment.


ANd I pointed out you have no place to come from regarding knowledge or morality. that wasnt sarcasm, you thought it meant something


But...how would you know? Oh...mind reading.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 9:31:24 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Your comment was the clue

It was pathetic, like 99.9 of your posts devoid of fact or intelligence, proof, or evidence.
sorry sad man, you lose again.


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(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 12:47:32 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

What prevents a free market for healthcare now?


at least 4 things that come to mind.

artificial limitations on the amount of doctors.

limitations on who can do what when it comes to practice (though this is changing somewhat in our times)

insurance companies. (let me know if you want some elaboration on that point)

increased government involvement/regulation that drives up provider costs.





(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 12:56:57 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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And the fact that there can never be a free market on the face of the earth.

But you forgot the Hospital and healthcare system monopolies.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:53:22 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

What prevents a free market for healthcare now?


at least 4 things that come to mind.

artificial limitations on the amount of doctors.

limitations on who can do what when it comes to practice (though this is changing somewhat in our times)

insurance companies. (let me know if you want some elaboration on that point)

increased government involvement/regulation that drives up provider costs.



Yes if you wouldn't mind elaborating on the insurance companies, i would appreciate it.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:55:00 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Well okay, I take your point. But if you want to frame it in terms of morality, then the morality that I am invoking here is biological, not philosophical. We are a species that has evolved a genetic endowment that inclines us to offer succor and protection to the weak and infirm, from which we may conclude that groups of humans that lacked it failed to thrive in the long run, and that to go against it will not benefit us in the long run either. So when I say that we have an obligation, I mean an obligation to ourselves, to be true to our humanity, and to resist those arguments that would ultimately betray us.

K.



that's an interesting view and I don't necessarily disagree with it but at the very least, id add to it from a religious worldview perspective.

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.

further, its a teaching and model Christ gave in his life.




I sure wish more republicans felt like you do,

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:58:53 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Well okay, I take your point. But if you want to frame it in terms of morality, then the morality that I am invoking here is biological, not philosophical. We are a species that has evolved a genetic endowment that inclines us to offer succor and protection to the weak and infirm, from which we may conclude that groups of humans that lacked it failed to thrive in the long run, and that to go against it will not benefit us in the long run either. So when I say that we have an obligation, I mean an obligation to ourselves, to be true to our humanity, and to resist those arguments that would ultimately betray us.

K.



that's an interesting view and I don't necessarily disagree with it but at the very least, id add to it from a religious worldview perspective.

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.

further, its a teaching and model Christ gave in his life.




I sure wish more republicans felt like you do,


They do. That's why they couldn't pass their own bill.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:20:22 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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tamaka, i'll come back tomorrow to fill in on the insurance elaboration.

this is just a quick note to address hillwilliam's comment.

jesus was not a political figure and he didn't teach nor spend his life advocating for governments to be doing the work that individual people could be/should be doing.

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:23:21 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
yes because charity is so well funded
and covers everyone

Oh and Jesus didnt say that money grabbing insurance companies and pharma companies, could decide who was worthy of care depending on his income, and he didnt set up a for profit clinic to heal the sick either.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/24/2017 6:31:12 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:40:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


this is just a quick note to address hillwilliam's comment.

jesus was not a political figure and he didn't teach nor spend his life advocating for governments to be doing the work that individual people could be/should be doing.

No, he wasn't political. In fact, he may have been the first human to advocate separation of church and state.
No, he advocated how people, EVERYONE, (even politicians) should behave.
It's just a damn shame that more of the people of the party that CLAIMS to follow him don't believe that.
Several of them post here.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 7:41:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Well okay, I take your point. But if you want to frame it in terms of morality, then the morality that I am invoking here is biological, not philosophical. We are a species that has evolved a genetic endowment that inclines us to offer succor and protection to the weak and infirm, from which we may conclude that groups of humans that lacked it failed to thrive in the long run, and that to go against it will not benefit us in the long run either. So when I say that we have an obligation, I mean an obligation to ourselves, to be true to our humanity, and to resist those arguments that would ultimately betray us.

that's an interesting view and I don't necessarily disagree with it but at the very least, id add to it from a religious worldview perspective.

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.

From a Christian perspective I think you are correct, doctrine to the contrary notwithstanding (see here).

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2017 7:45:31 PM >

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/25/2017 1:42:58 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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yes I think when churches as bodies make such statements, they are in error theologically.

that said though, and perhaps to the point, its actually a relatively rare position within the church.

among other interesting things to consider is to what extent the church is influenced by the political climate of the day.


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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/25/2017 2:13:09 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

What prevents a free market for healthcare now?


at least 4 things that come to mind.

artificial limitations on the amount of doctors.

limitations on who can do what when it comes to practice (though this is changing somewhat in our times)

insurance companies. (let me know if you want some elaboration on that point)

increased government involvement/regulation that drives up provider costs.



Yes if you wouldn't mind elaborating on the insurance companies, i would appreciate it.


there are a few things tamaka, one is indeed a "meddling" in the free market and the others, while perhaps technically still "free market" nevertheless end up distorting it.

the first is, and I think this one's already been mentioned, state involvement/regulations on insurance companies. so insurance companies do not and indeed cannot offer only what consumers are interested in buying and so people have to buy things they don't want. the result of that is premiums go up.

another is, the presence of insurance companies (and government regulation) increases costs at the provider level. physicians typically have to hire people for whom a large part of their job responsibility is just that. that cost gets passed along to the consumer.

the last is, when a third party (or "everyone") is paying, it removes the intimate relationship between consumer and provider in terms of the price and worth of the product being given. because of insurance, providers can charge 150 dollars for an office visit in which you are only seen for 15 minutes. whereas, if you were paying that much money out of your own pocket, its likely at times you wouldn't find that 15 minute product worth it, or you would strongly consider when it was indeed worth it as opposed to going to the doctor willy nilly for every ache and pain simply because "insurance is paying for it." ultimately, when that happens enough, demand goes down and prices go down with it. further, doctors, from both fear of litigation and because someone else is paying, will frequently order tests and procedures that wouldn't be ordered if people had to consider the worth of such things themselves. its simply too easy to spend other people's money and the result is, the product becomes more expensive.


to go off in a different direction, I mentioned practice limitations and that a change is occurring in our times---the advent of physicians assistants and nurse practitioners are a great step in the right direction. not everyone going to the doctor actually needs to see a doctor.

but even given that, and though we need more of that, we do need more doctors. there is little to no competition for practices comparatively speaking. my area for instance has one nephrologist, one endocrinologist, one dermatologist, one neurologist, one ophthalmologist...you get the idea.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 3/25/2017 2:24:27 AM >

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 140
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