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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 4:44:05 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

again, based on what?


Common sense.


"common sense" is a not an explication of how a thing is a right.

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 4:46:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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By your arguements, nothing is a right.

So any discussion of rights would be moot.


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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 4:55:47 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.




Yes. l agree with that. But access to healthcare also helps prevent people from becoming infirm. A pregnant woman is not infirm but needs care. There is a bigger issue than just caring for the sick.




a moral obligation view is a different argument from a rights view.

in the former then the question becomes how best to obtain healthcare and so i'll say it again, in principle, the free market produces the best product for the least amount of dollars.

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:04:18 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Well okay, I take your point. But if you want to frame it in terms of morality, then the morality that I am invoking here is biological, not philosophical. We are a species that has evolved a genetic endowment that inclines us to offer succor and protection to the weak and infirm, from which we may conclude that groups of humans that lacked it failed to thrive in the long run, and that to go against it will not benefit us in the long run either. So when I say that we have an obligation, I mean an obligation to ourselves, to be true to our humanity, and to resist those arguments that would ultimately betray us.

K.



that's an interesting view and I don't necessarily disagree with it but at the very least, id add to it from a religious worldview perspective.

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.

further, its a teaching and model Christ gave in his life.




< Message edited by bounty44 -- 3/24/2017 5:22:21 AM >

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:23:32 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.




Yes. l agree with that. But access to healthcare also helps prevent people from becoming infirm. A pregnant woman is not infirm but needs care. There is a bigger issue than just caring for the sick.




a moral obligation view is a different argument from a rights view.

in the former then the question becomes how best to obtain healthcare and so i'll say it again, in principle, the free market produces the best product for the least amount of dollars.


Since there is no free market, and never has been, and we have never had any proof of that, how would we test that already pretty well hacked theory?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:28:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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...and the well-established and oft-demonstrated problem of market externalities, which a "free market" imposes on others without their participation.

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:45:08 AM   
bounty44


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"Coulter: How to Provide Universal Healthcare Using This One Weird Trick"

quote:

The first sentence of Congress' Obamacare repeal should read: "There shall be a free market in health insurance.”

Right there, I've solved the health insurance crisis for 90 percent of Americans. Unfortunately, no one can imagine what a free market in health care looks like because we haven't had one for nearly a century.

On NBC's "Meet the Press" this weekend, for example, Chuck Todd told Sen. Tom Cotton that his proposal to create affordable health care that would be widely available, "sounds good," but "do you understand why some people think that's an impossible promise to keep?”

(The "do you understand ...?" formulation is a condescension reserved only for conservatives, whose disagreement with liberals is taken as a sign of stupidity.)

Todd continued: "To make it affordable, making it wider, I mean, that just seems like -- you know, it seems like you're selling something that can't be done realistically.”

Dream Sequence: Chuck Todd on Russia's "Meet the Press" after the fall of the Soviet Union: "Do you understand why some people think that's an impossible promise to keep? To make bread affordable, making it wider, I mean, that just seems like -- you know, it seems like you're selling something that can't be done realistically.”

It turns out that, outside of a communist dictatorship, all sorts of products are affordable AND widely available! We don't need Congress to "provide" us with health care any more than we need them to "provide" us with bread. What we need is for health insurance to be available on the free market.

With lots of companies competing for your business, basic health insurance would cost about $50 a month. We know the cost because Christian groups got a waiver from Obamacare, and that's how much their insurance costs right now. (Under the law, it can't be called "insurance," but that's what it is.)

Even young, healthy people would buy insurance at that price, expanding the "risk-sharing pools" and probably bringing the cost down to $20 or $30 a month.

In a free market, there would be an endless variety of consumer-driven plans, from catastrophic care for the risk-oblivious to extravagant plans for the risk-averse.

You know -- just like every other product in America.

You should visit America sometime, Chuck! The orange juice aisle in a Texas grocery store knocked the socks off Russian president Boris Yeltsin. (Imagine how cheap a double screwdriver must be in America!)

Just as there are rows of different types of orange juice in the grocery store –- and loads of grocery stores -- there will be loads of health insurance plans and insurance companies offering them.

Americans would finally be able to buy whatever insurance plans they liked, as easily as they currently buy flat-screen TVs, cellphones and -- what's that product with the cute gecko in its commercials? I remember now! CAR INSURANCE!

Evidently, insurance is not impervious to the iron law of economics that every product sold on the free market gets better and cheaper over time.

The only complicated part of fixing health care is figuring out how to take care of the other 10 percent of Americans -- the poor, the irresponsible and the unlucky. And the only reason that is complicated is because of fraud.

Needless to say, the modern nanny state already guarantees that no one will die on the street in America. The taxpayer spends more than a trillion dollars every year on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security disability insurance so that everyone's health is taken care of, from cradle to grave.

Unfortunately, probably at least half of that sum is fraud.

Policing fraud is difficult because: (1) the bureaucrats dispensing government benefits believe there is no fraud and, if there is, it's a good thing because it redistributes income; and (2) we keep bringing in immigrants for whom fraud is a way of life. (See "Adios, America! The Left's Plan to Turn Our Country Into a Third World Hellhole.”)

Consequently, after the first sentence establishing a free market in health insurance, the entire rest of the bill should be nothing but fraud prevention measures to ensure that only the truly deserving -- and the truly American -- are accessing taxpayer-supported health care programs.

I'd recommend sending as much as possible back to the states, and also paying bounties to anyone who exposes a fraud against Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security. Anyone caught committing health care fraud should get 10 years. Not in prison, in a Medicaid doctor's waiting room.

But I'm sure you guys in Congress have come up with lots of great ideas for policing fraud in the SEVEN YEARS you've had to think about it. (Hello? Is he breathing? Dammit, I'm not getting a pulse!!)

Then, Congress can start removing all the bad stuff from the U.S. Code, such as:

-- the requirement that hospitals provide "free" care to anyone who shows up (how about separate health clinics for poor people with the sniffles?);

-- the exemption of insurance companies from the antitrust laws (where all our problems began); and

-- the tax breaks only for employer-provided health insurance (viciously and arbitrarily punishing the self-employed).

The goal of "universal health care" is very simple to achieve, just as the goal of "universal wearing of clothing" seems to have been taken care of.

The government can provide for those who can't provide for themselves, but the rest of us need to be allowed to buy health insurance on the free market -- an innovation that has made America the richest, most consumer-friendly country in the world.

It's taken 50 years, but, thanks to Hillary's losing the election, we finally have liberals on the record opposing the Soviet Union. Can't all of Washington come together and end our soviet health care system?


http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/coulter-how-provide-universal-healthcare-using-one-weird-trick

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:56:21 AM   
BoscoX


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That's why leftists HATE Coulter, she is so good at smashing their faces down into their constant repeated communist tendencies and forces them to get it in their noses and in their mouths

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Thought Criminal

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 5:57:29 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Adopt the French system that takes half your income in taxes, but provides for all healthcare costs and retirement benefits.

No, the German system.

FYI

World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan


Germany ranks 25th, and the U.S. comes in at 37th.

K.


Just read this. Thanks for the link. I am going to read it now and I am very curious how they rank them.

I am thinking before I even look, that the amount of paycheck contribution is discounted. It is my understanding although I could be wrong, we'll see, that the French system may take much more of taxpayer's money.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/24/2017 6:16:19 AM >


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:11:30 AM   
MrRodgers


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Just as I thought, the WTO link shows no methodology. These comparisons are for the most part meaningless, yet organ. like the WTO put these out there as if there is something to be revealed.

The problem is that all of the data comes from self-reporting entities. There’s no methodology to the ranking.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/24/2017 6:15:40 AM >


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:26:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Just as I thought, the WTO link shows no methodology. These comparisons are for the most part meaningless, yet organ. like the WTO put these out there as if there is something to be revealed.

The problem is that all of the data comes from self-reporting entities. There’s no methodology to the ranking.

Well that link was to a Canadian site reporting the rankings, not to the WHO itself.

WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

Edited to add:

Looking at the link, I notice that the report is for the year 2000. Things are likely to have changed since then, but a quick look through the latest report didn't discover any country ratings.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2017 6:39:41 AM >

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:27:33 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Comrade alt-snowflake boscox enquires WTF is an arch conservative? I think it is the same as a viaduct conservative but the latter can shit more bricks.

Ah yes, he did threaten someone but kidded on later it was a joke, or was it fake news.
I thought the vote was full steam ahead Warp 9 to doolally land or else!

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:39:44 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

That's why leftists HATE Coulter, she is so good at smashing their faces down into their constant repeated communist tendencies and forces them to get it in their noses and in their mouths

No, because she is an exemplar retard. The commies are in the White house. There is no free market, and we are the only country on the face of the earth who tries to practice it, and we are having our ass handed to us. She attacked the 9/11 widows and helped you pimp pedophiles, thats why real Americans dont listen to her fucking retarded felchgobble.

Hey, the nutsuckers free-marketed corporations and they took nutsucker welfare and protections and personhood and went overseas with the money. Sorta dont make you fucking retards think, does it?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:40:19 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.


Food for Thought

"Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege," the pope said May 7 during a meeting with members, volunteers and supporters of Doctors with Africa, a medical mission begun by the Diocese of Padua, Italy, 65 years ago.
http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/health-care-is-a-right-not-a-privilege-pope-says.cfm

The teaching that health care is a right rather than a privilege was articulated by Pope John XXIII in his encyclical, Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth), published less than two months before his death on June 3, 1963.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/what-church-teaches-health-care-reform

The United Methodist Church therefore affirms in our Social Principles (¶ 162V) health care as a basic human right and affirms the duty of government to assure health care for all."
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-united-methodist-churchs-position-on-health-care-reform

In this review, I have emphasized the concept of healthcare as a basic right within the ethical framework of the three Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
http://hekint.org/index.php?id=324

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:49:20 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.


Food for Thought

"Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege," the pope said May 7 during a meeting with members, volunteers and supporters of Doctors with Africa, a medical mission begun by the Diocese of Padua, Italy, 65 years ago.
http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/health-care-is-a-right-not-a-privilege-pope-says.cfm

The teaching that health care is a right rather than a privilege was articulated by Pope John XXIII in his encyclical, Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth), published less than two months before his death on June 3, 1963.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/what-church-teaches-health-care-reform

The United Methodist Church therefore affirms in our Social Principles (¶ 162V) health care as a basic human right and affirms the duty of government to assure health care for all."
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-united-methodist-churchs-position-on-health-care-reform

In this review, I have emphasized the concept of healthcare as a basic right within the ethical framework of the three Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
http://hekint.org/index.php?id=324


Well then go become a nun rather than have men with guns (the IRS) steal from people in order to suit your whims

I seriously doubt that JESUS Christ taught that men with swords should force communism on the planet

Substitute the word "food" or the word "clothes" or the word "housing" for healthcare and it becomes apparent that "healthcare" is simply the cause du jour for communists today

Tomorrow it will be some other "right" that we need an all-powerful government to force on us, clothing or Internet or whatever

Grey uniforms, and heavily censored Internet, likely

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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:49:20 AM   
dcnovice


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FR

For much of its history, the U.S. took a free market approach to healthcare. How well did that work?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 6:51:46 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

For much of its history, the U.S. took a free market approach to healthcare. How well did that work?


We haven't had a free market for healthcare for 100 years

We do have a free market for car care though

Compare the costs

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 7:12:01 AM   
tamaka


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What prevents a free market for healthcare now?

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 7:24:08 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

while I cant speak to other religions, Christians in general and Christian healthcare givers in particular are motivated to provide care because man is created in the image of god. loving each other, which implies caring for them when they are sick, is a meaningful part of their faith life, and their relationship with god.


Food for Thought

"Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege," the pope said May 7 during a meeting with members, volunteers and supporters of Doctors with Africa, a medical mission begun by the Diocese of Padua, Italy, 65 years ago.
http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/health-care-is-a-right-not-a-privilege-pope-says.cfm

The teaching that health care is a right rather than a privilege was articulated by Pope John XXIII in his encyclical, Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth), published less than two months before his death on June 3, 1963.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/what-church-teaches-health-care-reform

The United Methodist Church therefore affirms in our Social Principles (¶ 162V) health care as a basic human right and affirms the duty of government to assure health care for all."
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-united-methodist-churchs-position-on-health-care-reform

In this review, I have emphasized the concept of healthcare as a basic right within the ethical framework of the three Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
http://hekint.org/index.php?id=324

Insofar as Christianity is concerned, I am more inclined to agree with Bounty's interpretation that the scriptural obligation falls upon those able to help, and I don't see any legitimate way to get from there to a "right" to be helped. In my view, the fact that Christ places obligations on his followers does not confer upon them the right to place obligations on others.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2017 7:30:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 7:31:48 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

For much of its history, the U.S. took a free market approach to healthcare. How well did that work?


We haven't had a free market for healthcare for 100 years

We do have a free market for car care though

Compare the costs

Gee, I wonder why ?

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 100
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