RE: Are cakes art? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Are cakes art?


No: thinking that they are is really gay
  35% (10)
No: of course they're not
  3% (1)
Don't know
  0% (0)
Don't care
  17% (5)
Maybe if they're really good cakes
  7% (2)
Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan
  28% (8)
Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake
  7% (2)


Total Votes : 28
(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/20/2017 6:20:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

And the ceremony had already been conducted.

They would have had to participate in the reception.
The fact that it was after the wedding weakens their case


Well, a self-respecting fag would have planned the party before anything.

But no, I think that the baker not asking or listening to any details of the event will be what sinks him.


Unless you want a cake that you can get at Walmart the Baker has to have information on the event.



I'm not sure what to say when you make my point for me.




tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/20/2017 6:23:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

You mean like a birth certificate for every birthday cake, since his religion doesn't condone bastard children? Surely, he wouldn't want to do business with a wayward woman.

Hey, what you trying to say, dude?[sm=spanking.gif]


Sorry, it's not just homos the Bible speaks ill of - women are barely tolerated too.


Barely tolerated? C'mon... we're fine as long as we are silent, and submissive and obedient to our Master.



And not bleeding.


.... yeah that too




Lucylastic -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/20/2017 7:22:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


And not bleeding.

oh yes, cant be having that.




WhoreMods -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 4:31:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Did he get an invite?

That could be the issue, couldn't it?




bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 4:47:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?

I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."


I trust I could make an argument for that being the case, but youd rather have to speak with the person in question and ascertain his interpretation of his actions. its really a case for the acronym "WWJD?"

however, I don't think that's the essential question. not everything a Christian does can rightly be understood as "an act of love" nor should it.

and again, the golden rule is not a panacea for permissiveness. if I treat people consistent with my understanding of morality, I expect the same in return. a "no" can still be given lovingly, kindly, with empathy, etc. that doesn't mean the person on the receiving end of it has to agree with the reasons behind the no.

your later statement (and tamaka's too) about women being "barely tolerated" is drivel---the bible is full of admonitions to honor and cherish wives, examples of women in leadership and places of honor, and no religion worldwide has done more for the status of women than Christianity.

and the whole "silent and obedient" complaint ultimately, especially in light of everything else, lands itself in the land of hyperbole borne of bitterness rather than a serious study of women in christianity.






DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:58:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
It's a matter of "fire & brimstone" vs "Christ is love". If you hold on too tightly to the former, it can be hard to remember the latter.

That's not for you to decide for anyone else, though.

I don't pretend to be able to pass judgment on anyone. Just speaking the truth, as I know it.


Bullshit. You're "speaking the truth, as [you] know it" and attempting to apply it to the bakery.

It's not for you to determine the truth as they know it. Since you're not the Christian baker in question, the "truth as [you] know it" is worthless.

Disagree with the baker and his/her faith, but give them the respect to determine their own beliefs. FFS, this is one of the reasons the Pilgrims fucking came to America!




DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 7:01:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?
I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."


Right! Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you! Don't fucking define their relationship with Christ according to yours! How 'bout them apples?






DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 7:04:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?
I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."

I trust I could make an argument for that being the case, but youd rather have to speak with the person in question and ascertain his interpretation of his actions. its really a case for the acronym "WWJD?"
however, I don't think that's the essential question. not everything a Christian does can rightly be understood as "an act of love" nor should it.
and again, the golden rule is not a panacea for permissiveness. if I treat people consistent with my understanding of morality, I expect the same in return. a "no" can still be given lovingly, kindly, with empathy, etc. that doesn't mean the person on the receiving end of it has to agree with the reasons behind the no.
your later statement (and tamaka's too) about women being "barely tolerated" is drivel---the bible is full of admonitions to honor and cherish wives, examples of women in leadership and places of honor, and no religion worldwide has done more for the status of women than Christianity.
and the whole "silent and obedient" complaint ultimately, especially in light of everything else, lands itself in the land of hyperbole borne of bitterness rather than a serious study of women in christianity.


Hey! Maybe Trump was following the Golden Rule! He wanted those women to grab and fondle his junk, so he grabbed and fondled theirs!




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 7:39:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
It's a matter of "fire & brimstone" vs "Christ is love". If you hold on too tightly to the former, it can be hard to remember the latter.

That's not for you to decide for anyone else, though.

I don't pretend to be able to pass judgment on anyone. Just speaking the truth, as I know it.


Bullshit. You're "speaking the truth, as [you] know it" and attempting to apply it to the bakery.

It's not for you to determine the truth as they know it. Since you're not the Christian baker in question, the "truth as [you] know it" is worthless.

Disagree with the baker and his/her faith, but give them the respect to determine their own beliefs. FFS, this is one of the reasons the Pilgrims fucking came to America!


Pilgrims came to America to avoid baking gay cakes?

No. If any part of a shopkeeper's possible daily duties or customer interactions force his faith to be stretched, then he's in the wrong business, plain and simple. Any product or service offered must be available to every customer. If you suffer in the name of Christ, then you'll be rewarded by Him anyway.

If you can't make a cake for a gay couple, then you should have no right to bake a cake for any wedding. At least under Colorado law.




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 8:39:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?
I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."


Right! Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you! Don't fucking define their relationship with Christ according to yours! How 'bout them apples?



I'm secure in my relationship with Christ. I'm also aware He hates hypocrites.




tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:35:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?

I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."


I trust I could make an argument for that being the case, but youd rather have to speak with the person in question and ascertain his interpretation of his actions. its really a case for the acronym "WWJD?"

however, I don't think that's the essential question. not everything a Christian does can rightly be understood as "an act of love" nor should it.

and again, the golden rule is not a panacea for permissiveness. if I treat people consistent with my understanding of morality, I expect the same in return. a "no" can still be given lovingly, kindly, with empathy, etc. that doesn't mean the person on the receiving end of it has to agree with the reasons behind the no.

your later statement (and tamaka's too) about women being "barely tolerated" is drivel---the bible is full of admonitions to honor and cherish wives, examples of women in leadership and places of honor, and no religion worldwide has done more for the status of women than Christianity.

and the whole "silent and obedient" complaint ultimately, especially in light of everything else, lands itself in the land of hyperbole borne of bitterness rather than a serious study of women in christianity.






Lol




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:50:10 AM)

Of course women were cherished. As any property would be.




tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 11:13:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Of course women were cherished. As any property would be.


... as long as they kept their mouths shut.




jlf1961 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 11:26:58 AM)

The issue is not art, but stupity and the fucked up American legal system.

Of course the simple fact that a business, any business has the right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reason, even a stupid, bigoted reason, and thus, if these two individuals want to waste money to sue the business, they can do just that.

In a country where a woman can sue McDonalds because the contents of a to go cup of coffee burned her crotch because she put the damn cup between her legs and actually wins the case has a serious problem.

And if a gay couple wants to sue some idiot to try and force him to make a cake, the question becomes, why the hell would they want to take their business to this guy after being refused service?

Because they are stupid.

Its not like he is the only baker of wedding cakes in the country.

The only thing they really accomplished is to give this guy tons of free publicity so that other bigoted idiots will go to his business because he stood up to the 'gay anti christian spawn of satan."




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 12:46:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The issue is not art, but stupity and the fucked up American legal system.

Of course the simple fact that a business, any business has the right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reason, even a stupid, bigoted reason, and thus, if these two individuals want to waste money to sue the business, they can do just that.

In a country where a woman can sue McDonalds because the contents of a to go cup of coffee burned her crotch because she put the damn cup between her legs and actually wins the case has a serious problem.

And if a gay couple wants to sue some idiot to try and force him to make a cake, the question becomes, why the hell would they want to take their business to this guy after being refused service?

Because they are stupid.

Its not like he is the only baker of wedding cakes in the country.

The only thing they really accomplished is to give this guy tons of free publicity so that other bigoted idiots will go to his business because he stood up to the 'gay anti christian spawn of satan."


According to the laws of the State of Colorado, it is illegal to discriminate against anyone on the basis of sexual orientation. Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act. Only valid in Colorado. Home of legal weed and the fucking Broncos (not covered as a protected class by the CADA).

The gay couple isn't suing the bakery. No, instead, they filed a report with the proper agency, which is likely the one named in the case.

What's really happened is that RWNJs with money latched on to the first case (and probably every other as well) they found, and lost their asses every decision along the way. The Supreme Court is hearing it this term. And they will have to answer the question "does religious freedom give the right to discriminate against the currently evil thing?".




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 12:51:51 PM)

And the lady that sued McDonald's had a legitimate case. Please stop spreading malicious lies on the internet.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

CAOC

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The McDonald’s Hot Coffee Case
It is the case that gave rise to the attacks on “frivolous lawsuits” in the United States. Almost everyone seems to know about it. And there’s a good chance everything you know about it is wrong.

In 1992, 79-year-old Stella Liebeck bought a cup of takeout coffee at a McDonald’s drive-thru in Albuquerque and spilled it on her lap. She sued McDonald’s and a jury awarded her nearly $3 million in punitive damages for the burns she suffered.

Typical reaction: Isn’t coffee supposed to be hot? And McDonald’s didn’t pour the coffee on her, she spilled it on herself! Besides, she was driving the car and wasn’t paying attention.

Now for the facts:

Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car that was stopped in the parking lot of the McDonald’s where she bought the coffee. She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap.

The coffee was not just “hot,” but dangerously hot. McDonald’s corporate policy was to serve it at a temperature that could cause serious burns in seconds. Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries were far from frivolous. She was wearing sweatpants that absorbed the coffee and kept it against her skin. She suffered third-degree burns (the most serious kind) and required skin grafts on her inner thighs and elsewhere.

Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases.

Mrs. Liebeck offered to settle the case for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and lost income. But McDonald’s never offered more than $800, so the case went to trial. The jury found Mrs. Liebeck to be partially at fault for her injuries, reducing the compensation for her injuries accordingly. But the jury’s punitive damages award made headlines — upset by McDonald’s unwillingness to correct a policy despite hundreds of people suffering injuries, they awarded Liebeck the equivalent of two days’ worth of revenue from coffee sales for the restaurant chain. That wasn’t, however, the end of it. The original punitive damage award was ultimately reduced by more than 80 percent by the judge. And, to avoid what likely would have been years of appeals, Mrs. Liebeck and McDonald’s later reached a confidential settlement.

Here is some of the evidence the jury heard during the trial:
McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns in three to seven seconds.
The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and biomechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation, the leading scholarly publication in the specialty.
McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
At least one juror later told the Wall Street Journal she thought the company wasn’t taking the injuries seriously. To the corporate restaurant giant those 700 injury cases caused by hot coffee seemed relatively rare compared to the millions of cups of coffee served. But, the juror noted, “there was a person behind every number and I don’t think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that.”
McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

In a story about the case (pdf) published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.”

That’s because those jurors were able to hear all the facts — including those presented by McDonald’s — and see the extent of Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries. Ask anyone who criticizes the case as a “frivolous lawsuit” that resulted in “jackpot justice” if they have done the same.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 2:08:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
It's a matter of "fire & brimstone" vs "Christ is love". If you hold on too tightly to the former, it can be hard to remember the latter.

That's not for you to decide for anyone else, though.

I don't pretend to be able to pass judgment on anyone. Just speaking the truth, as I know it.

Bullshit. You're "speaking the truth, as [you] know it" and attempting to apply it to the bakery.
It's not for you to determine the truth as they know it. Since you're not the Christian baker in question, the "truth as [you] know it" is worthless.
Disagree with the baker and his/her faith, but give them the respect to determine their own beliefs. FFS, this is one of the reasons the Pilgrims fucking came to America!

Pilgrims came to America to avoid baking gay cakes?
No. If any part of a shopkeeper's possible daily duties or customer interactions force his faith to be stretched, then he's in the wrong business, plain and simple. Any product or service offered must be available to every customer. If you suffer in the name of Christ, then you'll be rewarded by Him anyway.
If you can't make a cake for a gay couple, then you should have no right to bake a cake for any wedding. At least under Colorado law.


Freedom of religion, JVOV. If you can't freely practice your religion then you don't have freedom of religion. As long as someone's free practice of religion isn't abridging any of your natural rights, then they should be free to practice as they see fit. You do not have a right to purchase anything from anyone. I bet that bakery wouldn't hesitate to decline to sell a gay-wedding cake to a straight couple/person.

As far as your comment about a shopkeepers possible daily duties, should a Jewish/Muslim butcher not going into business because it's against their religious tenets to handle pork? I guess it should be illegal to open a halal or kosher butcher shop, too, eh?

Does a shop owner have any rights, whatsoever, to decline business opportunities?

Are there no other cake bakers in the area? FFS, there is a serious market failure at play here! If there are bakers who will not bake/decorate wedding cakes for gay weddings, what's preventing someone from marketing to fill that niche?!? Are there no bakers willing to decorate a cake for a gay wedding? Seriously?

I'm almost willing to bet (I would, but I'm not a betting man) this bakery was singled out in hopes that this would happen.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 2:11:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?
I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."

Right! Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you! Don't fucking define their relationship with Christ according to yours! How 'bout them apples?

I'm secure in my relationship with Christ. I'm also aware He hates hypocrites.


There you go again, implying that the bakers are hypocrites, based on your beliefs. I bet they see it differently and are just as secure in their relationships with Christ.




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 2:21:59 PM)

See, again, the gay couple really just filed a complaint. The State took over from there, as was their right to do under Colorado law as written.

Anyway, evidence in the case and supporting arguments for both sides will likely be held over several months, with no decisions before late Spring.




BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 3:21:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

And the lady that sued McDonald's had a legitimate case. Please stop spreading malicious lies on the internet.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

CAOC

About
Leadership
Join
Issues
Legislation
Political
Newsroom
Staff
Docs & Depos
Eclips
The McDonald’s Hot Coffee Case
It is the case that gave rise to the attacks on “frivolous lawsuits” in the United States. Almost everyone seems to know about it. And there’s a good chance everything you know about it is wrong.

In 1992, 79-year-old Stella Liebeck bought a cup of takeout coffee at a McDonald’s drive-thru in Albuquerque and spilled it on her lap. She sued McDonald’s and a jury awarded her nearly $3 million in punitive damages for the burns she suffered.

Typical reaction: Isn’t coffee supposed to be hot? And McDonald’s didn’t pour the coffee on her, she spilled it on herself! Besides, she was driving the car and wasn’t paying attention.

Now for the facts:

Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car that was stopped in the parking lot of the McDonald’s where she bought the coffee. She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap.

The coffee was not just “hot,” but dangerously hot. McDonald’s corporate policy was to serve it at a temperature that could cause serious burns in seconds. Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries were far from frivolous. She was wearing sweatpants that absorbed the coffee and kept it against her skin. She suffered third-degree burns (the most serious kind) and required skin grafts on her inner thighs and elsewhere.

Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases.

Mrs. Liebeck offered to settle the case for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and lost income. But McDonald’s never offered more than $800, so the case went to trial. The jury found Mrs. Liebeck to be partially at fault for her injuries, reducing the compensation for her injuries accordingly. But the jury’s punitive damages award made headlines — upset by McDonald’s unwillingness to correct a policy despite hundreds of people suffering injuries, they awarded Liebeck the equivalent of two days’ worth of revenue from coffee sales for the restaurant chain. That wasn’t, however, the end of it. The original punitive damage award was ultimately reduced by more than 80 percent by the judge. And, to avoid what likely would have been years of appeals, Mrs. Liebeck and McDonald’s later reached a confidential settlement.

Here is some of the evidence the jury heard during the trial:
McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns in three to seven seconds.
The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and biomechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation, the leading scholarly publication in the specialty.
McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
At least one juror later told the Wall Street Journal she thought the company wasn’t taking the injuries seriously. To the corporate restaurant giant those 700 injury cases caused by hot coffee seemed relatively rare compared to the millions of cups of coffee served. But, the juror noted, “there was a person behind every number and I don’t think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that.”
McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

In a story about the case (pdf) published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.”

That’s because those jurors were able to hear all the facts — including those presented by McDonald’s — and see the extent of Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries. Ask anyone who criticizes the case as a “frivolous lawsuit” that resulted in “jackpot justice” if they have done the same.

Your first line shows you don't understand responsibility.




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