RE: Are cakes art? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Are cakes art?


No: thinking that they are is really gay
  35% (10)
No: of course they're not
  3% (1)
Don't know
  0% (0)
Don't care
  17% (5)
Maybe if they're really good cakes
  7% (2)
Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan
  28% (8)
Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake
  7% (2)


Total Votes : 28
(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 3:23:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

See, again, the gay couple really just filed a complaint. The State took over from there, as was their right to do under Colorado law as written.

Anyway, evidence in the case and supporting arguments for both sides will likely be held over several months, with no decisions before late Spring.

Colorado law is wrong.




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:01:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

See, again, the gay couple really just filed a complaint. The State took over from there, as was their right to do under Colorado law as written.

Anyway, evidence in the case and supporting arguments for both sides will likely be held over several months, with no decisions before late Spring.

Colorado law is wrong.


Not according to every court so far. And there are similar laws around the country, gaining ground even as States push 'religious liberties' bills down our throats. Those just work so well, don't they?




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:04:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
But can the denial of a cake be done as an act of love?
I vaguely remember something about "Do unto others..."

Right! Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you! Don't fucking define their relationship with Christ according to yours! How 'bout them apples?

I'm secure in my relationship with Christ. I'm also aware He hates hypocrites.


There you go again, implying that the bakers are hypocrites, based on your beliefs. I bet they see it differently and are just as secure in their relationships with Christ.



The devil's always at work.




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:07:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

And the lady that sued McDonald's had a legitimate case. Please stop spreading malicious lies on the internet.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

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The McDonald’s Hot Coffee Case
It is the case that gave rise to the attacks on “frivolous lawsuits” in the United States. Almost everyone seems to know about it. And there’s a good chance everything you know about it is wrong.

In 1992, 79-year-old Stella Liebeck bought a cup of takeout coffee at a McDonald’s drive-thru in Albuquerque and spilled it on her lap. She sued McDonald’s and a jury awarded her nearly $3 million in punitive damages for the burns she suffered.

Typical reaction: Isn’t coffee supposed to be hot? And McDonald’s didn’t pour the coffee on her, she spilled it on herself! Besides, she was driving the car and wasn’t paying attention.

Now for the facts:

Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car that was stopped in the parking lot of the McDonald’s where she bought the coffee. She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap.

The coffee was not just “hot,” but dangerously hot. McDonald’s corporate policy was to serve it at a temperature that could cause serious burns in seconds. Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries were far from frivolous. She was wearing sweatpants that absorbed the coffee and kept it against her skin. She suffered third-degree burns (the most serious kind) and required skin grafts on her inner thighs and elsewhere.

Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases.

Mrs. Liebeck offered to settle the case for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and lost income. But McDonald’s never offered more than $800, so the case went to trial. The jury found Mrs. Liebeck to be partially at fault for her injuries, reducing the compensation for her injuries accordingly. But the jury’s punitive damages award made headlines — upset by McDonald’s unwillingness to correct a policy despite hundreds of people suffering injuries, they awarded Liebeck the equivalent of two days’ worth of revenue from coffee sales for the restaurant chain. That wasn’t, however, the end of it. The original punitive damage award was ultimately reduced by more than 80 percent by the judge. And, to avoid what likely would have been years of appeals, Mrs. Liebeck and McDonald’s later reached a confidential settlement.

Here is some of the evidence the jury heard during the trial:
McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns in three to seven seconds.
The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and biomechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation, the leading scholarly publication in the specialty.
McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
At least one juror later told the Wall Street Journal she thought the company wasn’t taking the injuries seriously. To the corporate restaurant giant those 700 injury cases caused by hot coffee seemed relatively rare compared to the millions of cups of coffee served. But, the juror noted, “there was a person behind every number and I don’t think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that.”
McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

In a story about the case (pdf) published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.”

That’s because those jurors were able to hear all the facts — including those presented by McDonald’s — and see the extent of Mrs. Liebeck’s injuries. Ask anyone who criticizes the case as a “frivolous lawsuit” that resulted in “jackpot justice” if they have done the same.

Your first line shows you don't understand responsibility.


What in the actual fuck are you babbling about now?




BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:17:11 PM)



There was no way you can put a collapsible cup of coffee between your legs and blame anyone but yourself when you get burned.




JVoV -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:23:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



There was no way you can put a collapsible cup of coffee between your legs and blame anyone but yourself when you get burned.


Except for all those words in a row that I posted that says you can.

I notice that you stop reading after five to eight words of any post. Sorry to confuse you with so much at once.




BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:30:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



There was no way you can put a collapsible cup of coffee between your legs and blame anyone but yourself when you get burned.


Except for all those words in a row that I posted that says you can.

I notice that you stop reading after five to eight words of any post. Sorry to confuse you with so much at once.

You can add a thousand words, it still doesn't make anyone responsible but her.
I live within 100 miles of where this idiot burned herself and have a lot more info than you do.
She got burned because she did something stupid, no other reason.




MercTech -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:36:49 PM)

Cakes CAN be art but most aren't.

The lady at the grocery deli or Walmat baked goods counter that is following instructions in a Wilton guide is as much art as a paint by number masterpiece.




tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:39:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



There was no way you can put a collapsible cup of coffee between your legs and blame anyone but yourself when you get burned.


Except for all those words in a row that I posted that says you can.

I notice that you stop reading after five to eight words of any post. Sorry to confuse you with so much at once.

You can add a thousand words, it still doesn't make anyone responsible but her.
I live within 100 miles of where this idiot burned herself and have a lot more info than you do.
She got burned because she did something stupid, no other reason.


The coffee that you drink should not be so hot that it causes 3rd degree burns. I mean, you're supposed to be able to swallow it.




jlf1961 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 6:41:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

And the lady that sued McDonald's had a legitimate case. Please stop spreading malicious lies on the internet.



From your article:

quote:

Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car that was stopped in the parking lot of the McDonald’s where she bought the coffee. She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap.


Anyone stupid enough to place a to go cup of hot coffee between their knees is asking for trouble.

As for the McDonald's policy of serving dangerously hot coffee, having personally gotten coffee at McDonald's in just about every state, and taking a drink almost immediately, and never once burning my mouth, this sounds like more bullshit.

For this to be true, either McDonald's has its employees microwave already hot coffee to boiling or they are purchasing specially designed coffee makers that keeps coffee at the boiling point.

Since the trial, McDonalds has not lowered the temperature of the coffee they serve, and according to the National Coffee Association, McDonald's has always served coffee at the desired temp of between 176 to 194 degrees, and the whole fucking reason Liebeck won the fucking case was that even though there was a warning on the cup, the jury felt it was not worded strongly enough OR written large enough.

In point of fact, this case is one of the primary fucking reasons congress passed the Tort reform bills. This case is considered one of the prime examples of a frivolous lawsuit, and if McDonald's had continued its appeals, the case would have been thrown out. The reason the final settlement was reached for under 600k was that McDonald's saw no gain in financially destroying a person, which is exactly what would have happened if McDonalds had continued the court process.

Hell the judge in the original case reduced the amount of damages the jury awarded, by a substantial amount, which should indicate what his thoughts were on the entire case.




Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 7:02:05 PM)

The thing not mentioned here yet is the basis for her suit and why she asked for such high damages.
The 79 year old woman claimed that the burns had destroyed her sex life.
While I am sure that a woman of that age can have sex, and many may, but the odds that she was facing a future full of sex are probably not very high. I seem to recall she was widowed at the time. Now, surely being widowed never stopped women from having sex, (and in some cases might even increase her chances) it seems unlikely to me that a woman of that age without a spouse is likely to have a lively and fulfilling sex life.
I have no doubt that a severely burned clitoris would seriously reduce her enjoyment of the act of intercourse, it just seems to me that she wasn't facing much of that in the future anyway, but that an opportunistic lawyer would view that as a perfect opportunity to make some serious money for himself. So yeah, I'm a skeptic about the motives behind that suit.




BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 7:36:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

The thing not mentioned here yet is the basis for her suit and why she asked for such high damages.
The 79 year old woman claimed that the burns had destroyed her sex life.
While I am sure that a woman of that age can have sex, and many may, but the odds that she was facing a future full of sex are probably not very high. I seem to recall she was widowed at the time. Now, surely being widowed never stopped women from having sex, (and in some cases might even increase her chances) it seems unlikely to me that a woman of that age without a spouse is likely to have a lively and fulfilling sex life.
I have no doubt that a severely burned clitoris would seriously reduce her enjoyment of the act of intercourse, it just seems to me that she wasn't facing much of that in the future anyway, but that an opportunistic lawyer would view that as a perfect opportunity to make some serious money for himself. So yeah, I'm a skeptic about the motives behind that suit.

Hers was one of the most successful and slimy lawyer in the state.
He even ran for Gov once, and got stomped..




LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 9:07:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey
The thing not mentioned here yet is the basis for her suit and why she asked for such high damages.
The 79 year old woman claimed that the burns had destroyed her sex life.
While I am sure that a woman of that age can have sex, and many may, but the odds that she was facing a future full of sex are probably not very high. I seem to recall she was widowed at the time. Now, surely being widowed never stopped women from having sex, (and in some cases might even increase her chances) it seems unlikely to me that a woman of that age without a spouse is likely to have a lively and fulfilling sex life.
I have no doubt that a severely burned clitoris would seriously reduce her enjoyment of the act of intercourse, it just seems to me that she wasn't facing much of that in the future anyway, but that an opportunistic lawyer would view that as a perfect opportunity to make some serious money for himself. So yeah, I'm a skeptic about the motives behind that suit.

Have you ever seen the pictures of the third degree burns that were the result of this incident? I found a link that shows a couple of the pictures of her burns. These are kind of graphic, so consider that before viewing. http://truecrimejunkie.com/the-infamous-mcdonalds-hot-coffee-case-what-you-didnt-know-graphic-photos/

Speaking as a woman, scars from burns like that would effectively end my sex life. They would also end any thoughts I had about going swimming, to the beach, wearing skirts, etc. That's over and above time spent having the areas treated for the burns, surgeries/recuperating from skin graphs, and everything else person would have to go through from damage that severe. It's definitely a life changing event.





Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 9:33:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Have you ever seen the pictures of the third degree burns that were the result of this incident? I found a link that shows a couple of the pictures of her burns. These are kind of graphic, so consider that before viewing. http://truecrimejunkie.com/the-infamous-mcdonalds-hot-coffee-case-what-you-didnt-know-graphic-photos/

Speaking as a woman, scars from burns like that would effectively end my sex life. They would also end any thoughts I had about going swimming, to the beach, wearing skirts, etc. That's over and above time spent having the areas treated for the burns, surgeries/recuperating from skin graphs, and everything else person would have to go through from damage that severe. It's definitely a life changing event.



I have seen burns up close in person more than I would like. When I was three my two year old sister came down with Meningitis, but was mis-diagnosed initially as having Polio. She was placed in a children's hospital that only treated children with Polio (this was mid-50s, just before the Salk Vaccine) and children who were burn victims. Because my sister was not expected to live the hospital made an exception to the minimum visiting age and for the next year and a half I accompanied my mother to the hospital every day all day. My mother being a nurse herself encouraged me to visit and interact with the other children who were patients. Two of those had been neighbors from down our street who had been caught in a house fire. They had been beautiful Greek girls and they both had burns over 80% of their bodies. Far worse burns than any hot liquid could ever do unless it was something like melted lead.
Later in life I saw a great many children and adults who had been burned by Napalm. I know burns very well.

I am well aware that burns in the crotch could easily end any kind of pleasurable sex life for good.
My point is that she probably did not have much expectation of a sex life even without the burns, so that was probably only a topic for jury sympathy.
Also, since she chose to place the cup between her legs instead of in a cup holder, she herself is at least partially complicit. It's the old, actions have consequences, thing. Her lawyer was trying to place it entirely on McDonald's.
And if her age was a factor in her decision making, then what was she doing driving a car? We have to assume she was mentally competent. So whether the coffee was too hot or not, she got burned through her own bad decision.
The court decision seems to have discounted her own complicity in it all.





LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:02:28 PM)

She wasn't driving the car. She was a passenger.




Real0ne -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:06:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

See, again, the gay couple really just filed a complaint. The State took over from there, as was their right to do under Colorado law as written.

Anyway, evidence in the case and supporting arguments for both sides will likely be held over several months, with no decisions before late Spring.

Colorado law is wrong.


Not according to every court so far. And there are similar laws around the country, gaining ground even as States push 'religious liberties' bills down our throats. Those just work so well, don't they?


yeh you got the right to your religion, so christains should have the right to theirs as well dont you think?

So you think that gay bakers should be forced to bake gay bashing cakes and banners right?




Lucylastic -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:18:47 PM)

The car didnt have cupholders.She wasnt driving the car, she was a passenger in a parked car
WHile Im not deriding your experience as a child with burn victims, there is a difference between a childs thighs and an old persons thighs.
she was belted in her seat, at 79 you cant move as fast as you used to be able too, and burns like hers would have been a nightmare, let alone the skin grafts,
I doubt she would want anything between her thighs until she was properly healed which takes a bloody long time. without her actual vag being iinvolved.
PS. I hope Im having sex at 80...
.




BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:27:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

She wasn't driving the car. She was a passenger.


Even less reason to put the cup between her knees.




Lucylastic -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/21/2017 10:30:30 PM)

in a parked car




DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/22/2017 7:40:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There you go again, implying that the bakers are hypocrites, based on your beliefs. I bet they see it differently and are just as secure in their relationships with Christ.

The devil's always at work.


That can be taken either way, JVoV.




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