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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:34:56 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
See above in my response to Greta. If you'd like to make a ban proposal in the future, start with the trucks that killed....what...60 in one shot and work down to the frying pan you can read about on Drudge right now that a woman used to kill her husband.

And I come from a country where Trucks are literally banned from certain areas now. Crowded Areas. High Traffic Areas.

So what the US can do is do the same. Ban Trucks from Cities. And Ban Semi-Auto weapons from Cities. Only allowed near forests where they hunt deers or whatever, but no semi-auto weapons should be permitted for sale in cities or near cities.

They can do something practical that works.

So this means that, perhaps people living near hunting grounds can start a business of semi-auto gun storage specially for the hunters, as if this hunter lives in the city, he can't bring home his semi-auto with him. And he can go back and collect it any time for hunting season.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 321
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:38:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Nnanji I would understand your position IF gun control would not work.... but it does and has been proven over and over. Do you know there were more gun homicides in St Louis alone last year than in all of the United Kingdom.

So the argument that gun control will not reduce gun related injury and death is bull... What it comes down to is are we willing to sacrifice your pleasure in owning certain type of weapons to reduce mass murders. You don't meed an ar 15 for home defense or hunting... it is only for pleasure... can't you give that up to save lives?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Nnanji)
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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:42:24 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Nnanji I would understand your position IF gun control would not work.... but it does and has been proven over and over. Do you know there were more gun homicides in St Louis alone last year than in all of the United Kingdom.

So the argument that gun control will not reduce gun related injury and death is bull... What it comes down to is are we willing to sacrifice your pleasure in owning certain type of weapons to reduce mass murders. You don't meed an ar 15 for home defense or hunting... it is only for pleasure... can't you give that up to save lives?

Butch

A very passionate argument. But passion isn't rational. Let's do this, you enter into an agreement with me to vote, your ballot, the way I say for the rest of your life and I'll consider your passionate argument. You give up a right to me and I'll consider giving one up to you.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 323
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:43:17 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You assume. When was the last time you went deer hunting?

I have not gone deer hunting, (and never will), but I have seen deer in the wild, where they were disturbed by my presence and saw the speed they ran.

Unless those hunting deers were bred to be so tame and stand still while humans shoot.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 324
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:47:19 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Frankly I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. No compromise.

The people who died in this concert were high chances more right leaning than left leaning.

So you don't care about any possible way to prevent their deaths from happening?

I want NRA to be the solution provider because the NRA is not the left. I want the Right to Protect their own people from bad people like the Las Vegas Killer.


(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 325
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:50:20 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		And that is why hunters need a semi automatic rifle to hunt.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:50:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't find it passionate... I find it necessary and it would be politically beneficial to the Republicans to be the leaders in gun control... If they don't as soon as the Democrats regain power they will do it and be even tougher on gun owners.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:53:00 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
And that is why hunters need a semi automatic rifle to hunt.

So you are saying in very very typical circumstances. After the first shot misses. The second or third or fourth or fifth shot will definitely hit that same deer who ran off? I personally think that is cheating. Not fair play to the innocent deer.

I think hunters should play one shot one kill. If you miss, practice harder next time! Plus I am sure you guys have scopes and would camp quietly and snipe the deer and that's how you get them.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 328
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:56:30 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Nnanji I would understand your position IF gun control would not work.... but it does and has been proven over and over. Do you know there were more gun homicides in St Louis alone last year than in all of the United Kingdom.

So the argument that gun control will not reduce gun related injury and death is bull... What it comes down to is are we willing to sacrifice your pleasure in owning certain type of weapons to reduce mass murders. You don't meed an ar 15 for home defense or hunting... it is only for pleasure... can't you give that up to save lives?

Butch

Come on, Butch...that is an "if it only saves one life, isn't it worth it?" argument. Full of emotion and not much el else. The truth is that while gun ownership has gone up since 1993, the murder by gun rate has gone down.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:56:56 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Nnanji I would understand your position IF gun control would not work.... but it does and has been proven over and over. Do you know there were more gun homicides in St Louis alone last year than in all of the United Kingdom.


Gun control in the UK and Europe is not a proven way to prevent mass deaths. In the 60s and 70s the IRA and Red Brigades managed to kill more in Europe without guns than were killed by guns in the US during the same time period.
The current level of killings in St Louis and Chicago is more due to an increase in gang culture than to guns themselves. Take away the guns and gangs would still find ways to kill one another.

quote:


So the argument that gun control will not reduce gun related injury and death is bull... What it comes down to is are we willing to sacrifice your pleasure in owning certain type of weapons to reduce mass murders. You don't meed an ar 15 for home defense or hunting... it is only for pleasure... can't you give that up to save lives?
Butch


While I would agree that an AR-15 is not needed for hunting, in fact I think as a non-hunter, the smaller .223 caliber of it makes the AR-15 less effective as a hunting weapon than something with a larger caliber like a .30-30 or a .30-06.
However if you have an invader in your home looking to rape your wife or steal your kids, there is no such thing as too much firepower as long as it is used properly. An AR-15 could be very handy in that scenario.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:58:05 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Frankly I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. No compromise.

The people who died in this concert were high chances more right leaning than left leaning.

So you don't care about any possible way to prevent their deaths from happening?

I want NRA to be the solution provider because the NRA is not the left. I want the Right to Protect their own people from bad people like the Las Vegas Killer.



Guns prevent a million crimes in this country per year. You want me to trade both my right and those million crime victims forbthe fifty in Las Vegas. I say bullshit just on my rights and then top that off with the million less victims. No compromise.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 7:59:34 PM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Guns prevent a million crimes in this country per year.

So NRA should do a study on specifically WHICH TYPE of guns prevented crimes. And the ones that isn't necessary to that. Ban it for sale. I mean for self-protection, most people aren't gonna carry a semi-automatic rifle everywhere with them on a daily basis right? Highly doubt the ones that prevent deaths on daily basis by ordinary citizens are precisely what Las Vegas killer used.

There is a rational way of doing this to offer more protection.

And I know the proposed solution needs to come from NRA. Not the Dems. Because NRA would understand the position gun owners and their needs the best and able to tweak the whole security of gun owning better.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 332
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:00:21 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Would you not agree that a pump or semi 12 gauge shotgun with bird shot would be a better intruder defense weapon? Withe the AR 15 you could easily miss and shoot through walls killing your child for instance... let common sense rule.

As far as the rest of your post... removing guns...especially assault type weapons would not stop the killing but slow it down considerably. Use the UK again for example... yes bombs kill and so do vehicles...but as we have seen knives are hard you use in mass murders.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:04:43 PM   
Nnanji


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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't find it passionate... I find it necessary and it would be politically beneficial to the Republicans to be the leaders in gun control... If they don't as soon as the Democrats regain power they will do it and be even tougher on gun owners.

Butch

The Democrats have thought that for years. They learned when Al Gore lost his own state that was BS., I'm more than happy to let them travel that path. They've lost so many elections since Obama was elected and I'm more than happy to let them continue trying policy issues that will keep them out of power.

You may be right in one respect. The next generation may have different views. Well, in high school I had long hair and said fuck the man. The next generation will have the power to throw away all of their rights and they do seem intent to do exactly that. But, fuck them, I won't be here and they can have their power just as my generation took ours.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:07:21 PM   
Nnanji


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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
And that is why hunters need a semi automatic rifle to hunt.

So you are saying in very very typical circumstances. After the first shot misses. The second or third or fourth or fifth shot will definitely hit that same deer who ran off? I personally think that is cheating. Not fair play to the innocent deer.

I think hunters should play one shot one kill. If you miss, practice harder next time! Plus I am sure you guys have scopes and would camp quietly and snipe the deer and that's how you get them.

It doesn't matter whether it's a bolt action or a semi-auto action. A hunter goes to a gun store and buys what he/she wants. It's a right not a privilege. What happens in the field has no bearing on anything pertaining to this discussion.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 335
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:08:43 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
It doesn't matter whether it's a bolt action or a semi-auto action. A hunter goes to a gun store and buys what he/she wants. It's a right not a privilege. What happens in the field has no bearing on anything pertaining to this discussion.

That is not true that a hunter goes and buy what he wants. As I said, there are already guns that are not legal for purchases so stores do not have them. So there are already gun restrictions in place. Because the amendment does not protect the "Variety of guns" you can have access to.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 336
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:10:43 PM   
Nnanji


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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Guns prevent a million crimes in this country per year.

So NRA should do a study on specifically WHICH TYPE of guns prevented crimes. And the ones that isn't necessary to that. Ban it for sale. I mean for self-protection, most people aren't gonna carry a semi-automatic rifle everywhere with them on a daily basis right? Highly doubt the ones that prevent deaths on daily basis by ordinary citizens are precisely what Las Vegas killer used.

There is a rational way of doing this to offer more protection.

And I know the proposed solution needs to come from NRA. Not the Dems. Because NRA would understand the position gun owners and their needs the best and able to tweak the whole security of gun owning better.

No compromise. None. It is a right. I'll make you a deal just like I offered to KD. You have the right to your body. You sign an agreement to me to have it where and when I want it for any purpose I want it and I will consider a compromise you offer.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:12:10 PM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Would you not agree that a pump or semi 12 gauge shotgun with bird shot would be a better intruder defense weapon? Withe the AR 15 you could easily miss and shoot through walls killing your child for instance... let common sense rule.

As far as the rest of your post... removing guns...especially assault type weapons would not stop the killing but slow it down considerably. Use the UK again for example... yes bombs kill and so do vehicles...but as we have seen knives are hard you use in mass murders.

Butch

Who cares. I have the right to go to the gun store and chose that which I want...no matter how foolish my choice is. No compromise.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:12:36 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I think hunters should play one shot one kill. If you miss, practice harder next time! Plus I am sure you guys have scopes and would camp quietly and snipe the deer and that's how you get them.


Greta, I don't hunt, but from knowing many men who do, it's more likely that the first shot will hit, but with an animal the size of a deer it may not kill. The ability to fire a second or third shot quickly to ensure the kill is considered more humane than allowing a wounded deer to run off in pain and slowly dying over hours or even days.
Of course that is outside whether you feel hunting is humane or not, but men have hunted deer throughout the history of mankind, so I won't try to hash out that bit of morality here.
I can tell you that I learned to shoot when I was 12 using a single shot bolt-action type rifle. This is what was mostly used for hunting in the US until after WWII. I do currently own a semi-automatic survival rifle. If I were to take up hunting today I would definitely prefer a semi-automatic rifle, as most hunters use today.
I live in an urban area and gunshots are regular around here. Once in a while I will even hear something fully automatic. It all has to do with gang violence.
If I drive not all that far I can be in areas that are frequently used to hunt deer during the limited season when that is allowed. I have yet to hear any kind of fully-auto weapon used by hunters.
Most of the hunters around here are pretty responsible gun owners. That's true in the majority of the US.
The problems always come from psychotics and gang members. Restrictive gun laws won't stop those people. Just leave everyone else at their mercy.


(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/4/2017 8:13:54 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Only if you think one life is not worth saving... I would say there would be a good chance that 59 lives would not have been taken if the type of weapons used were not readily available... Sure he could have tried other ways... but guns were his first and effective choice. It is much harder to get explosives now days then legal killing weapons.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 340
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