RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!"

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meatcleaver -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:15:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW quote: ORIGINAL: Level misst, GW is not your Prime Minister; no one "made" Blair support the war There's a true statement if ever there was one. We need to stop blaming the U.S. for Blair's decision making, I can't imagine Bush spanked him into it. (LOL, and I apologise to everyone who may now have that image burned onto their retinas) There is no doubt that Blair made a choice for whatever reasons and their was pressure and enough support for him to have made the opposite choice. Two thirds of the electorate wanted him to stay out of the war and one assumes the same two thirds want him to move away from US policy and more towards Europe. Chirac and Schroeder didn't feel in any way pressured by the US. In fact Blair could have found allies in them if he really felt he was being pressured by the US. Chirac told Blair that WMD in Iraq was the stuff of fantasists and all Brits that think and see, know Blair is a fantasist. Blair is the problem Britain has to deal with, not the US.

incognitobynight -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:26:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I wish someone had smothered Osama Bin Laden in his crib when he was 3 years old. But they didn't, did they? Instead they (the U.S.) gave him millions of dollars to build a "militia" in Afganistan to fight a holy war against the Russians. I know you don't like to put any of the blame on the west, (after all we all KNOW God is on "our side"), but until we take responsibility for our part in this mess, no solution will ever be reached. Our part, just in case you have decided to ignore it, is that we, as a people, as a government, prop up cruel dictatorships in the countries where the "terrorist" originate from. We do this at the behest of our corporate masters who stand to make a lot of M.O.N.E.Y. from the resources in these countries. Until THAT part of the equation is dealt with....you will never kill enough of them to solve the problems. I love my country (as I am sure you love yours), but I am not afraid to admit that we have a responsibility here as well. I love my country so much, that I want to see it do better, and not bury my head in the sand as to what the real problem is. It doesn't matter if they are Islamic or Catholic or Jew. The parts of the world where we have decided to intefere just so happen to be muslim countries. The fact that they ALSO use their religion as ANOTHER justification of what they do to fight back, is just an inconvenient detail. They aren't the first to do so, by all means. Remember the Christian crusades.

incognitobynight -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:41:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse These events happened when Bill Clinton was our President. We are where we are now because he did absolutely nothing to end these attacks against our Country. ROFLMAO I keep forgetting. It's Clinton's fault.

incognitobynight -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:43:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: The Crusades? Oh dear God!!!! Do you have any idea what you are talking about?? The Crusades were an attempt by christians to drive out the invading moslems...in other words the moslems invaded christian lands (Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Tunis, Algeria, Morocco, France, Russia, Italy & Spain) and the christians fought back, defeating the invaders in Northern France (Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in early October of 732 - don't recall the date) and began a centuries long process of liberating the conquered lands (the Spanish "Reconquista"). When the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert in 1071 they overran the near east, conquering much of modern syria and turkey, This prompted the Emperor to call for aid from the Christian west, which had driven the moslems out centuries before (you may not that the spanish took very little part in the crusades, as they had one right at home). The result was the crusades, the whole am of the crusading movement was to regain the "Holy Land" for christians, the Moslems having conquered around 640. This was not what the Emperor Alexius I had intended, he was hoping for trained volunteers to help him reconquer Anatolia & Antioch. So much for the crusades being justification for anything, not only are they very old news, you also clearly have very little idea what they were actually about, hopefull my little histroy lesson will help you a bit. Now I return you to your regularly scheduled thread And you are missing the point that you so eloquently just detailed. It was a war with religion as it's justification, and yet it was really all about land, resources, etc. Reclaiming the "holy lands" says it all.

Level -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:50:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitobynight quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse These events happened when Bill Clinton was our President. We are where we are now because he did absolutely nothing to end these attacks against our Country. ROFLMAO I keep forgetting. It's Clinton's fault. No, but it's not all Bush's fault, either. Lots of shit to go around.

incognitobynight -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 5:40:37 AM)
I wanna make a comment on the "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" phrase. I heard that phrase so many times yesterday that everytime I repeat it, I have to adopt a British accent, or it just doesn't "feel right". Why, since I believe the threat was real and not fabricated for political reasons like a few others in the past, does hearing that same phrase over and over make me want to roll my eyes now when I hear it?. Why can't they sprinkle in a few....."these guys were up to some really dastardly deeds." or....."what they were planning was pretty horrific", or "The plot was such that it would have caused tremendous death and destruction". Why is it necessary to run that single phrase, "mass murder on an un-imaginable scale" (see...did you hear the British accent?) over and over and over and into the ground. It just starts to sound scripted, like a talking point. It makes me feel like I'm being programmed or something. Does anybody get that .....unsettling feeling as they hear this over and over? Or is it just me? (I wouldn't be surprised if it was just me).

meatcleaver -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 5:55:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitobynight Why is it necessary to run that single phrase, "mass murder on an un-imaginable scale" (see...did you hear the British accent?) over and over and over and into the ground. It just starts to sound scripted, like a talking point. It makes me feel like I'm being programmed or something. Does anybody get that .....unsettling feeling as they hear this over and over? Or is it just me? (I wouldn't be surprised if it was just me). Yes and we should have an uneasy feeling about it because it is to make us believe we are in great danger and that we should be thankful to the government for protecting us, when the whole British government policy is creating the terrorists that they are protecting us from. 1984 has arrived and we are all too stupid to question it.

mnottertail -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 6:06:17 AM)
You can thank that right wing republican upright God of yours that they don't have Robin Leach saying it, it would be the last thing you remembered in your eternal insanity. LOLOLOL, Ron -- The Mother of All Shock and Awe.

Focus50 -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 6:39:02 AM)
I don't care what spin the politically correct wanna put on it; in the age we now live in, "Muslim" and "terrorist" are synonymous.... Islam is now more a cancer than religion. They don't want peace in the Middle East, they just wanna kill Jews and Westerners. At first I thought Israels's response to Hezbollah's attacks were overkill but now having seen the scale of Hezbollah's activity, there's no way the "innocent" Lebanese Government weren't and aren't complicit with their cowardly attacks! And all Lebanon now reaps what their government sowed! If Hezbollah laid down their arms, there'd be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, they'd be annihilated! So the US arms and supports Israel - where do the mad arabs get their AK's etc? I say let them be the martyrs they crave - fence 'em all in, arm them to the teeth and nuke the "winners"! Focus.

NorthernGent -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 6:49:27 AM)
mm, Your quote: This is not intended to be a shot at you, but if you have a piece of a solution, it would certainly be worth hearing. We could stop the madness right now if we could put our heads together. No offence taken. 1) First we have to understand the root causes of the problem. 2) Only when we understand the root causes can we resolve the situation. Roots of Terrorism: a) Our Governments meddling in the Middle East and Asia: Why is it that Britain and the US are the main targets? Why has France or Germany or Holland escaped this threat? It's because our Goverments are practicing state terrorism masquerading as spreading democracy. The US had a major hand in overthrowing the first demoractic state in the Middle East in 1953 and since then have made it a key strategic objective to destabilise the Middle East. The British Government is effectively acting as an agent for the US Government by selling US policy around the wolrd in return for a commission. When our Governments stop slaughtering people for the sake of economic gain we will be far less exposed to terrorism. b) Social inequality in Britain: This inequality causes frustration and a lack of identity among the British muslim community. When we begin to treat them as British the more extreme factions will be less likely to want to attack a country they feel connected with. c) The Middle Class media representation of British Muslims: There is persistent, subtle demonisation of Islam and muslims in the British media and this sort of spin can sway impressionable minds. I was listening to a supposedly progressive radio station today (BBC radio 5 live) and the presenter was keen to point out that some of the suspected terrorists are British and some muslim - the inference being that you can't be both muslim and British. A couple of days ago, the Daily Telegraph reported on an Enlgand/Pakistan cricket match where a British muslim was playing for England. He was barracked by the Pakistani crowd. All the way through the report the term Asian was used to identify the player and his family but when they switched to the barrackers in the crowd they were suddenly referred to as muslim. Why? Because they aim to report muslims in a negative light. Why not continue with the theme of the article and report the barrackers as Asian? In actual fact, to date, only 4 British muslim terrorists have been identified and 24 suspected terrorists. A tiny minority of the 2 million British muslim community. It would be interesting to compare these stats with the percentage of white American terrorists as a percentage of the white American community. To report the British muslim community in a negative light based on the actions of 28 people is dangerous bigotry. d) Our lack of education as a society: This is the most important issue because it is this that allows the Government and the media the platform to lead us down the path of bombing campaigns and bigotry. To date, we are educated to believe that our well being depends on material wealth. The chase for wealth underpins the self-interest, the invasions, the bigotry and the social inequality. At present, we are have forged an unhealthy alliance with the Government - they rape and pillage parts of the world and we turn a blind eye because we get a big house and a spanking car in return. As we progress, we will understand that our well being depends on friendship, love, loyalty, respect that can only be gained through policies of internationalism and social justice. Once we understand this the unhealthy alliance will be broken and we will begin to elect Governments who adopt policies intended to give us what we need rather than what we have been conditioned to want. In terms of who will provide this education in Britain, the onus falls on the people who advocate internationalism and social justice i.e. the left. Solution to overcome these root causes of terrorism: 1) Our Governments stop murdering people and dressing it up as spreading democracy. 2) The media realise their responsibility to internationalism and stop portraying the British muslim community as dangerous on the basis of 0.01% of the population. 3) The establishment provide equal opportunities so we do not have a section of our society excluded and frustrated. 4) Most importantly, our societies need educating to understand that placing emphasis on material wealth is destructive. Don't hold your breath for the British right to do this as they're still dreaming of the days of imperialism and conquest. Regards.

EnglishDomNW -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 7:08:16 AM)
The Muslim Council of Britain probably spoke out as loudly as anyone in their condemnation of the use of violence. I do think there's a case that Islamophobia is a healthy tool for politicians with a dangerous agenda.

meatcleaver -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 8:03:05 AM)
The body count suggests that the west is far more efficient at killing muslims than the other way round. If people take off their blinkers now and again they might realise that the west has played their part in creating muslim terrorism.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 8:07:34 AM)
I am not the expert on Al Qaeda, but I have taken some effort to understand them, relying on reports from our PBS on the "liberal view", and from published analysis from our Naval and Army War Colleges on the "conservative view". Surprisingly, these two sources are not at all in any fundamental disagreement. However, the largely coincident view there contrasts dramatically with the message put forth by US politicians and talking heads. No matter what Dumbya says, Al Qaeda didn't attack us "...because they hate our freedom", nor are they madmen. They have strategic political goals, and they aim to acheive them through violence, much as state governments do with their armies. If the US just sat in a corner and minded it's own business, we wouldn't have been attacked. The US is and has been a great force in the larger world though, both in overt and covert ways. Certainly in the short term, the largest inflammatory issues are: Decades-long US support for Israel to dominate and oppress the Palestinians Decades-long US support for a corrupt and exploitive monarchy in Saudi Arabia US military actions in Iraq (including the first Gulf War) The US, under FDR, back in 1945, signed an "oil for security" pact with King Abd al Aziz of Saudia Arabia. Under this agreement, the US agreed to provide security assistance to the Saudi monarchy, building the massive Dhahran military base, which we still operate there, as well as providing miliatry hardware and training for the Saudi military, in exchange for improved access to Saudi oil. While it was formerly held by US oil companies, Saudi Aramco is presently held by the Saudi monarchy, and is the largest oil company in the world, headquartered at, coincidently, Dhahran. The Saudi monarchy is highly unpopular. They need security more from their own citizens than from their neighbors. This doesn't sit real well with Bin Laden. Not only would he like to overthrow the Saudi monarchy which is held up by the US, but he would like to replace it with a hardline Muslim fundamentalist government a la "The Taliban". The US stands in his way. Bin Laden, as does many Arabs, sides with the Palestinians in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The US, provides massive support for Israel - military, economic, and diplomatic. Without that support, Israel would either have been crushed, or at least forced to make concessions and accept the partition borders described in the UN resolution of (I believe) 1947. So the US, again, stands in his way. Bin Laden wasn't real happy about US intervention in the first Gulf war, along with a host of other US influences there. We may have yet come into conflict with Bin Laden regardless, as Al Qaeda seems to have rather grand long term goals for Muslim fundamentalist influence. But the short answer is, it's because of what we do outside the US, not inside, that they hate us. Of course, the goals of the leadership of Al Qaeda may be achieved without explaining things to their "military soldiers" in strategic terms. Rather, the conflict is expressed in heated ideological terms to motivate them to enter battle, much as this is done here.

incognitobynight -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 8:21:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Of course, the goals of the leadership of Al Qaeda may be achieved without explaining things to their "military soldiers" in strategic terms. Rather, the conflict is expressed in heated ideological terms to motivate them to enter battle, much as this is done here. Wow!. Kewl!

popeye1250 -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 9:42:49 AM)
Well it would appear that the only way "WE" (The American People) can rectify these problems is to have more of a "direct" say in America's Foreign Policy. I don't think our Foreign Policy should be left Solely in the hands of the President or the State Dept. I'm not at all a "Globalist", I don't believe in any type of "foreign aid", a minimum amount of foreign trade, and I believe we need to end all those immigration and "refugee" and "asylum" programs as 95% of them are rife with scams and fraud so I'm already at odds with (my) government on these issues. It's as though The American People are "spectators" in what goes on in Washington.

Chaingang -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 10:00:13 AM)
I scroll up page 4 in this discussion and I find I agree with almost everyone except Focus50 who needs his chill pills. The main voices of reason there are: incognitobynight, Daddy4UdderSlut, meatcleaver (it happens), EnglishDomNW (it happens too) and NorthernGent (with his extremely measured reasoning on the causes and effects of political manipulation and terrorism). One point of clarification to Daddy4UdderSlut - I think you well described Osama bin Laden (mainly a guy with a lot of money, CIA training, and a bad liver). AQ may be another thing altogether.

A1slave -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 11:55:21 AM)
I have read each and every post on this thread and have concluded that you are all correct from your own perspectives. Some of you would be killed for expressing such viewpoints in the countries mentioned in this thread. The women of course would not be allowed to have a viewpoint at all and would not know how to express it because learning how to write would be forbidden. I for one blame a lot of this on the Mongols and the Khans who ravaged China, Russia, what we call the Middle east and a bunch of places in Europe. During the early decades of the 1200's the psychological impact of the Mongol invasion was incalculable. Before the Mongols swept through, the Islamic world that centered on Bagdad was intellectually vigorious, bold, adventurous, full of poetry and science and art. They had after all, defeated the Christians and won the long wars of the Crusades. After the invasion, the dour conservatism of the fundamentalists darkens it all. Same with Russia and much of Eastern Europe. The chronicler's reports of the numbers of dead are staggering. 1,600,000 murdered at Harat, in 1220. Rumor reached the Mongol prince Tuli that some had survived there by hiding among the piled corpses, and when he took Nishapur (in Iran) some time later, he ordered the heads cut off all the bodies. At Nishapur according to contemporaries, 1,747,000 died. The systematic destruction of the culture of the Middle East was devastating. In early 1242, the Mongol army that was poised to invade Western Europe at Vienna and would surely have ravaged the entire continent at will, withdrew because of the timely and considerate death of Ogadia Khan, the third son of Ghnghis Khan. The rest is very interesting to historians however the main point I am trying to make is this. The Mongols would have ripped up European civilization by the roots as they had done in the Middle East, China, Russia and elsewhere. Holland would have reverted to wasteland and swamps, the trade that was developing would have dissappeared, no rise of capatilism or middle class in Europe, no Dutch revolt, no printing press, no huminism, no industrial revolution. There would have been no Galileo, Kepler, Newton. The caliphate, the central authority of Islam, died with the coming of the Mongols. The pope surely would have met the same fate of being tied into a sack and trampled out of reverence for his exalted blood which resulted in destroying their central authority and allowing for the collapse into dozens of divergent sects which is what we see today. Lots of argueing sects. Maybe that venture into Iraq will work. I sure hope so. I'd hate to see their soccor team being tortured again for losing games. That was very poor sportsmanship on behalf of Iraq's future...leader. Also it was beyond reason to see women being beaten, tortured and shot to death for having the rag over their face or their dress too short. Our world is certainly a paradox. It always has been. Sorry for being so long winded. You really are all correct. doug

Focus50 -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 2:19:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang I scroll up page 4 in this discussion and I find I agree with almost everyone except Focus50 who needs his chill pills. The main voices of reason there are: incognitobynight, Daddy4UdderSlut, meatcleaver (it happens), EnglishDomNW (it happens too) and NorthernGent (with his extremely measured reasoning on the causes and effects of political manipulation and terrorism). One point of clarification to Daddy4UdderSlut - I think you well described Osama bin Laden (mainly a guy with a lot of money, CIA training, and a bad liver). AQ may be another thing altogether. I'm not a religious person but the Muslim brand of terror is (apparently) in the name of God, and I just don't accept that brand of luny logic at all! Now chaingang, I accept you're entitled to your personal opinion just as I am to mine but what brand of arrogance qualifies you to start a sentence beginning with "The main voices of reason there are...."? Who made you chief arbiter of all things Muslim and of Middle Eastern affairs? As far as the "voices of reason" are concerned, good luck to anyone trying to reason with Muslim fanatics. The US certainly has meddled too much in the oil states but as we're now seeing with Iraq haemorrhaging with civil/sectarian conflict and have seen previously with the Iran-Iraq war, there doesn't need to be Westerners involved for mad arabs to wanna spill blood in the name of Allah! Islam is one versatile religion considering there's not much that they can't justify "in the name of God". All I see is a cancer and I'm far from whipped into a crazed frenzy in expressing such a view - so I won't need any "chill pills" either.... lol Focus.

Chaingang -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/11/2006 4:20:54 PM)
The game of blood feud is won by outlasting attrition by stages. In which case we might as well chop off our own heads. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield-McCoy_feud

Focus50 -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 3:37:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang The game of blood feud is won by outlasting attrition by stages. Kinda brings back memories of the American obsession with "the body count" in the latter stages of the Vietnam war.... Focus.

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