RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (Full Version)

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IronBear -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 6:01:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

E-String, yup, those people make Nevill Chamberlain look like Gengis Kahn.
Is this what they call "The Stockholm Syndrome?"


The term, Stockholm Syndrome, was coined in the early 70's to describe the puzzling reactions of four bank employees to their captor. On August 23, 1973. The Stockholm Syndrome occurs when the following conditions are met:
  • Perceived threat to survival and the belief that one's captor is willing to act on that threat
  • The captive's perception of small kindnesses from the captor within a context of terror
  • Isolation from perspectives other than those of the captor
  • Perceived inability to escape
http://web2.airmail.net/ktrig246/out_of_cave/sss.html

"Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!"

How quickly the press forgets the millions of jews murdered in the death camps or the killing fields in Cambodia or even the inaccountable murders in Uganda, and other thirs world states since.. Are we in non third world countries to believe that it cant happen on our own doorstep? I think not we are now just closer to it than ever before since 9/11 and the Bali Bombings or even Lochaby.... Vigilance ratrher than racial or religious hatred and paranoi just brings it closer and makes it easier. Tollerence and vigilance are far better..




meatcleaver -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 6:21:21 AM)

Then there is the forgotten genocide.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005219



calamitysandra -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 6:27:35 AM)

Oh, I think I might just love you![sm=applause.gif]



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 7:33:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
The US certainly has meddled too much in the oil states but as we're now seeing with Iraq haemorrhaging with civil/sectarian conflict and have seen previously with the Iran-Iraq war, there doesn't need to be Westerners involved for mad arabs to wanna spill blood in the name of Allah!
 
Islam is one versatile religion considering there's not much that they can't justify "in the name of God". 

I would agree that there are Muslim fanatics, who cannot be reasoned with to be sure.  Where I would disagree though is:
1. that Muslim = fanatic - I think that the vast majority of Muslims are not fanatic
2. that the sectarian violence there is done in the name of Allah - I think it is a mixture of power struggle and emotion-driven cycle of violence (eg. as was played out in Northern Ireland for decades on a smaller scale, under stable government, and with intact police and army)
3. that the West played no role in the outbreak of violence in Iraq - I think that one of the great failures of the US military was in simply standing by and allowing the breakdown of civil order that began from day one with the removal of the government, police and army...
 
As to fanaticism in Islam, in my opinion, this is a result of certain leaders using religious themes to help motivate their followers.  Strong feelings, including anger and righteousness, can easily flow from the difficulties and violence that have been felt in the Middle East.  While some of those miseries have come from Arab-Arab conflict, a great deal has come, not only historically, but to this day, from the West.



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 8:14:45 PM)

P.S. For a fine example of a contemporary Christian fanaticism, read up on our Pat Robertson, multimillionaire, broadcast network owner, and former Republican Presidential candidate.

There isn't enough Collarme bandwidth to describe all his looniness, but one of his Presidential campaign promises was to abolish the Federal Department of Education (in true Christian fashion)... and get this quote, calling for nuclear attack on the US State Department (headquartered at Foggy Bottom) "What we need is for somebody to place a small nuke at Foggy Bottom"... for more, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson




CrappyDom -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 9:53:22 PM)

Those fucking Arabs are just barbarians.  We need to nuke every fucking man, woman, and child in the ME and let them taste how civilized people deal with terrorists who want to commit mass murder.

I am tired of screwing around, we need some sort of solution, something that will make this their final act of barbarism.



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 10:01:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
It's obvious that these people are not going to stop.
Oh, and if anyone in here would like to call me a "Bigot" go right ahead.


When you take a massive and varied group of people, begin calling them "these people" and claiming that they should all be deported as terrorists though the terrorists are a small minority of said group, the bigot label is justified.



CrappyDom -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 10:08:44 PM)

I am just glad those fucking barbaric Muslims don't have B29s and incendiaries, I mean they are just crazy and evil enough to firebomb an entire city and kill millions of ordinary citizens.  I think we need to kill ever male child, I read somewhere that that always works.  If we don't kill enough of them, we are never going to have peace in the middle east.



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/12/2006 10:09:55 PM)

Here's my general opinion on the thread so far...

According to some, Muslim equates to terrorist, or at least a terrorist majority, and the easy solution is to get rid of them all.  That is the same as saying that, since I am a caucasian midwesterner, I like Nascar and country music, as do all my neighbors.  Therefore you should buy us a six pack of Pabst and throw a broken fridge on our front lawns.

It's a load of bullshit, and all of you know it.  It's the same old bigoted song and dance;  the whole, "don't like one, dump them all," kind of oversimplified attitude that has caused mass hatred in the past.



Dauric -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 12:36:22 AM)

The Middle East is a problem, it always has been and may always be so. I'm largely of the opinion that humanity left the "Cradle of Civilization" because our siblings were world-record-holding brats and the caucasians and mongols would rather take their chances as babes in the woods than share a blankie with 'em.

It's a complicated part of the world and I think something about the desert heat, or maybe some underground metallic deposit that creates an electromagnetic field strong enough to fuck with their brains, that makes everyone there spoil for a fight. Israeli, or Palenstinian, Suni or Sheiite theuy're all worse than a bunch of drunken irishmen. At least the drunk isrishmen have a hangover to deal with in the morning. (Speaking of Irish, remember that the middle eastern terrorists are actually following in the footsteps of the IRA. One can only hope that someday soon they will decide to follow the irish example of putting asidde the terrorism.)

I'll speak for some people I've had the pleasure of having forum conversations with, one who I already spoke of in this thread: Not all Muslims are Arabs. When you get in to the pacific rim there are majority muslim countries where the violent ultra-conservative element is a minority (there's going to be one of those groups no matter where you live or what religion you are.) In these places "Muslim" does not equate on a one-to-one basis with "Terrorist" at all. Even in the middle east there are voices of reason and moderation  ( http://sandmonkey.org/) as one example in paticular. They just don't have the volume of voice to be heard over the asshats.


$0.02

Dauric.



Level -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 4:30:41 AM)

Not all muslims are violent.
 
Many in the middle east are "behind the curve" currently as far as education and spiritually. This makes some of them susceptable to being manipulated by those that are fanatics, and those with agendas.
 
Many of them live under the thumb of dictators the West has either put in place or supported, which has hardened their hearts in some cases. Kindling ready for a spark.
 
Most Israelis just want to be left in peace, and would leave others in peace as well.
 
Many muslims and middle easterners see, with some degree of validity, the Israelis as interlopers. They, with the help of the west, took many homes from Palestinians in a callous fashion.
 
Rightly or wrongly, the Israelis are not going anywhere.
 
So...... fight or make a true peace?
 
Hard for the arab/muslim/middle easterners to hold out or accept the olive branch; human nature + pride + having your home taken away from you = pissed off. Having those behind them saying "are you going to let them get away with that? we'll help you get your homes back, so let's you and him fight" does not calm things. But when you go to fight, the opponent is a badass, and he's got the Ultimate Badass on his side as well.
 
As Dr Phil would say, "How's that working for you?"
 
Hard for the Israelis to hold out or accept the olive branch; every time they've tried, it seems, their opponent has taken it and lashed them across the face with it. Then the opponent told them they will not rest until the jews are dead and gone. Will not rest. And when they've not been told that, actions did not back up words, death still confronted them.
 
So, what to do?
 
Using my feeble mind, the best way to peace is this: the Palestinians must decide -- not the Iranians, not the Syrians, not the Egyptians, not the Jordanians -- that peace means more than revenge, and their actions and their words must be as one. Peace, initially, must mean even more than justice.
 
They have to set the guns down, shout down the suicide bombers, and tell any third parties interested in seeing the shit continue hitting the fan to go away.
 
Israel must keep an open mind to the Palestinians. They must make sure the Palestinians have enough land to live in, and they must make an extreme effort to help them build a solid and decent society, with infrastructure and economic aid.
 
"Fixing" the Israeli/Palestinian problem would go a very long way to diffusing the terror issues I believe, it would at least take away one of the prime cards the terrorists hold up as validation for their behaviour.



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 7:13:54 AM)

I have to say, that US policies and actions in Iraq have killed a lot more innocent people in Iraq than Saddam Hussein did.  Why are such things simply considered at best "regrettable, but unavoidable" or "regrettable but worth it"?  That is, why do most Americans at least, simply give the US a pass for killing innocents, but are deeply offended when someone else does it?

I completely understand opposition to terrorism by small groups, what I fail to understand is casual acceptance of mass killing, directly and indirectly by state governments?

US-led Sanctions in Iraq for example, took a once wealthy country into the depths of poverty, misery, malnutrition and death.  Estimates of the death toll on young children, who were most vulnerable to this policy, vary, but the most credible range from 350,000 to 550,000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions
And of course it's not just the young children who starved to death who were affected.  That to me is just an astonishing thing.  Can people not grasp why some Arabs would be so motivated by such cruel western (and US led) policies as to want to strike back in the most hurtful ways?

There are no up-to-date, reliable estimates of civilian deaths of Iraq as a result of the US invasion.  The US military makes a point of not studying this issue.  But the best study done so far (published in The Lancet), showed, that back in 2004, that there were conservatively estimated to have been 100,000 civilian deaths back then, with the majority of the mortality being among women and children, and the principle source of mortality - US aerial bombing. 

Even if one reviews some of Saddam's brutality, one finds an American hand - consider that in the aftermath of the first Gulf war, with the Iraqi military soundly defeated, and a massive US military presence on the doorstep of Iraq, George HW Bush told the Iraqi civilian populace to rise up and overthrow Saddam.  They tried.  Saddam fought back brutally, and even a decimated Iraqi miltary vastly overmatched an unorganized civilian rebellion.  Saddam massacred 10's of thousands of Shiites in the south and Kurds in the north.  And what did the US, who encouraged the people to act, causing the entire thing, do?  Nothing - the military stood by and literally watched the whole thing.  The US finally interceded only after great loss of civilian life and world outrage, establishing the "no-fly zones" in the north and south.

Now, I wonder why on earth some of them thar Ay-rabs might not feel kindly towards the US?  Why on earth are some of them so emotional?



puella -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 7:14:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

That's how they just described this bomb threat at London's Heathrow Airport.
In my humble opinion we need to decertify "Islam" as a "religion" and re-classify it as a dangerous cult and outlaw it in Western countries just like Christianity is outlawed in "Islamic" countries.
They also had an interview with a journalist in England and he said that there are "2 million islamic fundamentalists in Britain who are *openly hostile* to British authorities and British Society."
I think this situation has crossed the line to where it can no longer be defended in any way by the "Politically Correct."
**They just reported (CNN) that the terrorists had planned to blow up TEN (10) Airplanes over the Atlantic with liquid explosives.**
As far as I'm concerned, let the mass deportations begin!
It's obvious that these people are not going to stop.
Oh, and if anyone in here would like to call me a "Bigot" go right ahead.



Popeye, you are a bigot.  You have just labeled yourself one, no one else needs to.  I will provide however, that your submission to the fear mongering that has gone on for the past 6 years has contributed (most likely) to turning you into a scared ineffective person.

(I am watching Meet the Press right now so bear with me; I have stated before what sort of mood that show puts me in.)

There are a number of very disturbing things to observe in your post popeye.  The first, and perhaps the most disturbing is this handing over of power and accountability to an ambiguous and all powerful 'We".  Who are you willing to hand over your rights to in order to give you some semblance of 'security'.  No one on this planet has the right to eradicate the beliefs of  another, especially those who are undedicated in those beliefs.  You are going to what?  Round up all 'Muslims' and put them in concentration camps until they renounce their tenets of faith?  Just kill them all to purge the world of something which you think poses a threat to you?  Are you noting any similarities to these two options of your idea?  Do you remember who used these two tactics to try to perpetrate another Genocide?

Who is going to comprise this "We", who decides what is permissible and what is not, and how you get rid of the unmentionables?  George Bush, who didn't even know there was more than one sect to the Islamic faith before he went in and took out the 'evil doers'?  The New American Centurists?  Good God, I hope not.

The next thing that worries me is the disassociation which takes place when we buy into the Us and Them syndrome.  This enables you to label an entire mass of individuals into on nameless, faceless lump.  By dehumanizing and depersonalizing people, you create a space in your own psyche to allow you to do all sorts of unspeakable and reprehensible things. 

I think those first two rants prove, to some degree what I have seen happening, to a great degree to many of my fellow citizens here in the United States.  We do not want to take the time and the burden to learn why there is anger and hostility and violence against us and so in order to not have to deal with it, we hand over complete and dizzyingly frightening power to scrub the scary bits away, and the cost of that is our freedoms, our privacies and our accountability.

On a more specific rant against what you stated... you are going to get rid of all the Muslims?  Even the ones who reported this operation to the British authorities?  This plot would not have been stopped were it not for the Muslim community in England which had noted the behaviors and informed the government what was happening.... I guess though, as they are still Muslim and you do not like, understand and are afraid of their ideology, you better wipe them off the planet too, at least by your logic.

Also, if you are going to wipe out a bunch of people by faith... you better put a halt on the weapons we are supplying Israel with.  After all, they have defied over 40 UN Security Council Resolutions, and have directly attacked the United States  (how quickly we forget the USS Liberty, the bombing of which they tried to pin on the Egyptians and got caught with their underpants down around their ankles.)  The militant Zionists are just as worrisome as the militant Islamic groups.

Oh wait!! And don't forget the Christians... how many indigenous peoples have been murdered in the name of Jesus Christ, throughout history?  How many radical branches of that faith still terrorize women and doctors at Planned Parenthood and Abortion Clinics (and yes, they have perpetrated acts of violence... bombings, etc... for their beliefs).  Also do not discount the amount of lives lost due to AIDS which can be attributed at their door via the rationing and controlling of aid to (mainly) Africans via faith.  If you do not come to Jesus, you do not get medical attention and basic relief in much of Africa.  Much of the American aid money gets handed over to religious right wing groups who then 'tend' the poor, the sick and the weary in Africa, but... only if you claim Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

So given the three main religions on this planet would all have to be obliterated and their followers killed and destroyed.. I am assuming you are going to appoint Buddhists and Atheists to your 'We' commission?


How about instead of killing everyone who frightens you with their anger, you sit down, do the learning and understand what is motivating both your fear and the anger that inspires it?  How about you take responsibility for the things which have legitimately caused that anger, even if the violence in which it manifests itself is not acceptable?  How about we stop trying to homogenize the world to our own recipe specifications? 

How about we start understanding that this very manner of 'Us and Them', round them all up and hand them over to 'We' to be eradicated, fear- mongered juvenile thinking is the greatest contributor to the creation of radical beliefs in others which allows for such horrifying (for both parties) acts of hopelessness and violence as suicide bombers and terror plots?

Stop being a bigot.  Grow up and take on some education, understanding, compassion and most of all, responsibility and accountability.



Level -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 7:40:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

I have to say, that US policies and actions in Iraq have killed a lot more innocent people in Iraq than Saddam Hussein did.  Why are such things simply considered at best "regrettable, but unavoidable" or "regrettable but worth it"?  That is, why do most Americans at least, simply give the US a pass for killing innocents, but are deeply offended when someone else does it?

Because Americans are not killing innocents on purpose, Saddam did. Americans are trying to root out terrorists, and insurgents, and the lawless. Sadaam killed those who he did not like.

I completely understand opposition to terrorism by small groups, what I fail to understand is casual acceptance of mass killing, directly and indirectly by state governments?

Once upon a time, you might have two warring factions in the middle of a field, fighting. Now, terrorists and insurgents use civilians to hide behind. War is ugly and innocent people die. Pricks like al Zarqawi took men hostage because they signed up to be police officers, and killed them, and took peace workers from all over the world and beheaded them. Americans have accidently killed innocents in an effort to stop people like al Zarqawi. I can't understand how some people not only can't see a difference there, but seem incapable of critizing the al Zarqawi's of the world. (Not neccesarily meaning you, D4)

US-led Sanctions in Iraq for example, took a once wealthy country into the depths of poverty, misery, malnutrition and death.  Estimates of the death toll on young children, who were most vulnerable to this policy, vary, but the most credible range from 350,000 to 550,000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions
And of course it's not just the young children who starved to death who were affected.  That to me is just an astonishing thing.  Can people not grasp why some Arabs would be so motivated by such cruel western (and US led) policies as to want to strike back in the most hurtful ways?

Why were the sanctions imposed? What would you suggest have been done instead? Why aren't you condemning Sadaam for taking the money made from oil sales in the oil for food program, instead of getting it to the men, women, and children who needed it?

There are no up-to-date, reliable estimates of civilian deaths of Iraq as a result of the US invasion.  The US military makes a point of not studying this issue.  But the best study done so far (published in The Lancet), showed, that back in 2004, that there were conservatively estimated to have been 100,000 civilian deaths back then, with the majority of the mortality being among women and children, and the principle source of mortality - US aerial bombing. 

Even if one reviews some of Saddam's brutality, one finds an American hand - consider that in the aftermath of the first Gulf war, with the Iraqi military soundly defeated, and a massive US military presence on the doorstep of Iraq, George HW Bush told the Iraqi civilian populace to rise up and overthrow Saddam.  They tried.  Saddam fought back brutally, and even a decimated Iraqi miltary vastly overmatched an unorganized civilian rebellion.  Saddam massacred 10's of thousands of Shiites in the south and Kurds in the north.  And what did the US, who encouraged the people to act, causing the entire thing, do?  Nothing - the military stood by and literally watched the whole thing.  The US finally interceded only after great loss of civilian life and world outrage, establishing the "no-fly zones" in the north and south.

One thing you and I can seemingly agree upon is that we did indeed urge an overthrow of Sadaam, and we let the men trying to do so down. Shamefully. But, I can see the non-stop "why is the US meddling" brigade endlessly kvetching if we HAD helped overthrow him. Same as with the choice between war and sanctions, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Now, I wonder why on earth some of them thar Ay-rabs might not feel kindly towards the US?  Why on earth are some of them so emotional?




philosophy -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:02:51 AM)

"Those fucking Arabs are just barbarians.  We need to nuke every fucking man, woman, and child in the ME and let them taste how civilized people deal with terrorists who want to commit mass murder."

.......oh the bloody irony. So nuking every man, woman and child in the middle east will somehow prove how civilised we are? i seriously doubt you and i agree on the definition of the word civilised. i also seriously doubt you and the dictionary agree either.

"I am tired of screwing around, we need some sort of solution, something that will make this their final act of barbarism"

.....do you really not understand that what you're proposing is called genocide?



philosophy -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:07:17 AM)

"I am just glad those fucking barbaric Muslims don't have B29s and incendiaries, I mean they are just crazy and evil enough to firebomb an entire city and kill millions of ordinary citizens"

...and in your last post before this you were advocating firebombing not just one city but an entire region. Soooooooo, does that mean that by your definition you are crazy and evil?

"I think we need to kill ever male child, I read somewhere that that always works.  If we don't kill enough of them, we are never going to have peace in the middle east."

........and in moral terms, if we assume that the desire to perform an act has some equivilance with performing it, no-one could get a cigarette paper between you and the 9/11 bombers right now.



Level -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:08:16 AM)

Philosophy, who said those things? Not being facetious here, but pressed for time and curious. Be back shortly lol.



Level -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:09:18 AM)

Ah, was it Crappy?? He was being sarcastic, if so.



puella -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:17:30 AM)

It was Crappy and he was ( I am hoping) being sarcastic.  The problem is Level, that the OP states something just as awful. 

It is the uneducated categorization of peoples under a bland label to allow for a rationalization of violence against them which is a huge and growing epidemic in our culture these days.

Btw.. George Bush has called the Iraqi's, Arabs... they are not Arabs, in fact, he is highly supportive of his Saudi friends, and should be as they own his ass.

The problem here is that we try to go in and wipe out 'evil doers' in broad strokes, without knowing who and what we are talking about, let alone what has these people so disgusted with us to begin with.



philosophy -> RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" (8/13/2006 8:37:11 AM)

"Ah, was it Crappy?? He was being sarcastic, if so."
 
...i really hope so............




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