RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (Full Version)

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Nikolette -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 4:54:07 AM)

darkinshadows:

I'd say for the first 6 months of our relationship he really did try to submit only when it really suited him to do so and there was a direct pay off.

This was... a really really devistating issue for us, and over the last 6 months he has really made a lot of huge improvements on his behavior, his attitude and his perspective. He has matured personally as well as in his slavery.

This bump in the road so to speak was a little bit more resistance than I had thought it would be since he's made such progress and done such work. As mentioned above, I really think that talking to him about giving him some stretching room to investigate into this on his own and feel himself out will probably solve the issue. I think he probably just wanted some validation that I was listening to his concerns about it, rather than just me laying down facts and opinions in a row and pushing him.

A quote that I really love goes thus: "If you need something from somebody, always give that person a way to hand it to you."



Nikolette -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 4:59:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Nikolette,

Maybe you could begin to integrate meals without meat in your and his diet slowly. So many people just don't think outside the box when it comes to meals without meat. When I first started trying to cook and eat vegetarian I felt lost at first. Then I was grateful, because I had gotten very tired of the same old foods over and over. Becoming vegetarian made me look outside the box and expand my ideas about what a meal is.

There are plenty of good vegetarian and vegan cookbooks out there. There is no need for anyone to be miserable on a plant based diet. Life can still include delicious cakes, breads, and wonderfully filling meals without the use of products that come from animals. I make a tofu and soymilk based "ice cream" that tastes just like a chocolate malt.

Some people think vegetarian is plates full of vegetables and nothing else. What I found is that is expanded my horizons considerably.




I've already done a lot of that, actually. I have kept all of my old cookbooks from being a vegetarian. We like a lot of ethnic food that is VERY vegetarian friendly and easy to transfer into vegetarian and vegan meals. (Indian, Thai, Mexican and Italian) .. Cooking is a passion of mine and I am always looking for new recipies to try. He really really loves my cooking (I have worked as a professional chef before).

I agree with everything you said! There are so many great ways to cook all of one's favorite foods. We even know of a few Buddhist restaurants here in Boston that sell menus full of fake meat- even seafood. He has expressed some (albeit dubious) interest in trying their "seafood"!



Nikolette -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:07:08 AM)

Thanks to all who's engaged me in this very interesting conversation! I'll look back in the evening for more replies (if there are any)



WhipTheHip -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:08:05 AM)


I don't believe it is fair to demand a sub modify their diet.
This is something that needs to be negotiated.  I am a
"pesco-vegetarian."  Meaning I eat fish, but not seafood.
If I found a partner, she would have to agree to be a
"pesco" vegetarian, too.  But I would tell her this before
hand. This is a major aspect of the relationship that you
can't automaticlly expect a person to change midstream.
Most people need to become vegetarians gradually.
 
I think it is very likely fish and seafood do NOT feel pain.  I
think they are more like organic robots.  Still I would never
boil lobster alive.  Pain is felt in the brain.  Reflex action is
not pain.  In other words, humans recoil from touching
something hot.  They recoil before they actually feel pain.
The spine does not feel pain, even though it directs limbs
to move when heat is sensed.  Once again there is a big
difference between sensing heat and feeling heat.
 
It is very curious to note that our brains create an
experience that is unlike anything that actually exists
in the universe.  For example, color only exists in
the human brain, and in the brains of some other
animals.
 
The sun is not really yellow, grass is not really green,
blood is not really red, and water and sky are not
really blue.  Our brains colorize the universe. Yes,
different objects radiate photons of different wavelengths,
but this does not mean photons of different wavelengths
have different colors.  Color is qualia.
 
There are two kinds of life, sentient life, and non sentient
life.  People ask how I know that rocks and plants are
not sentient.  The ansewr is I don't know, everything is
possible. But I don't naturally assume things are sentient.
There is evidence that humans, primates, and mammals
are sentient.  Birds are a gray area, they may be sentient.
Fish may also be sentient, but the evidence there is a lot
weaker.
 
There is no reason for someone who eat a vegan, vegetarian
or pesco-vegetarain diet to become anemic. The exact same
amino acids found in mean can be found in vegatables, you
just need to know which vegetables contain which amino
acids.  Potatos are a complete food.  Humans can live on
potatos.   Legumes have one kind of amino acid, while
grains have another kind of amino acid.   So, you need
both in your diet.  Eggs are a good source of protien.
 



mistoferin -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:21:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Potatos are a complete food.  Humans can live on
potatos.  


A potato weighing 100 grams provides approximately 2.1 grams of incomplete protein. The average male body requires 56 grams of protein per day, the average female requires 44. You would need to eat an awful lot of potatoes...and if they were your sole diet you would never get complete protein from them.



michaelGA2 -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:23:55 AM)

i would starve to death because i don't like many vegetables.



sharainks -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:26:16 AM)

A good share of this whole thing is health for me.  If your diet primarily consists of meat with potatoes and a tablespoon of some canned veggie thats not real healthy.  If your vegetarian diet consists of peanut butter, pasta, bread, cereal and potatoes, thats not real healthy.

People tend to hold meat up as some kind of treasure thinking that if the animal has eaten plants they benefit from what the animal ate.  To me its a matter of variety in what you eat. Those who eat meat often make it the focus of their meal and to me thats no more balanced than making peanut butter your staple food.  Its just lacking in the full range of what your body needs.  One of the books I read made a case for the healthiest foods being brightly colored to appeal to our eyes, being within the grasp of our hands, and being tasty to ensure we continue to eat it.

I can't buy into the idea that people were "meant" to eat meat.  Certainly we don't have the teeth to rip through a cow's fur and hide to get to the meat.  Natural carnivores like the big cats do have teeth meant for that.  When people developed tools of some kind eating meat became a possiblity and it was probably in watching natural carnivores that they realized that it took sharp things to get through the hide to the meat. 



losttreasure -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:27:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette

Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism?


Poorly, I expect.  But then again, I've never considered myself "slave" material, and as such have alway sought a dominant with whom I am compatible. 

Do I expect that we will always agree?  No.  Am I willing to comply with his expectations even if I don't agree?  Yes... within reason. 

What is "reasonable"?  That's an individual thing and for me takes a great deal of time, thought and communication... it's part of finding out if someone is compatible.

However, people do change and I accept that.  I am open to new ideas and am willing to be persuaded, but I promise neither agreement or compliance.

Could I be persuaded to become vegetarian?  Perhaps.  Could I be persuaded to change my political affliations?  Doubtful.  Could I be persuaded to become an atheist?  No.

Do I expect my dom to accept this about me?  Yes.  If he is my dom, it is because at the beginning of our relationship he either agreed with me, or accepted this about me... hence, he is compatible.

Edited for spelling.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
Could I be persuaded to become vegetarian?  Perhaps. 


No need.  I'm a meat lover.  [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
Could I be persuaded to change my political affliations?  Doubtful. 


If you ever do change your political beliefs ... it won't be because of me.  It would be despite me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
Could I be persuaded to become an atheist?  No.


No need.

***

As for the rest of the thread:

I think for most people, the choice to start a vegan diet IS a "religious" decision.  For the poster that said that homo sapien isn't a meat eater in nature - the facts are against you.  Man is an omnivore.  That means he'll eat ANYTHING that doesn't kill him (and I don't mean other predators).

Even chimps eat meat when they can get it.

It's perhaps the amount of meat and the type that is unhealthy in our current society, but not the fact of eating meat.

I have no problem with someone deciding to become a vegan, but like any religious exercise, I don't like it being forced on me.  The OP's situation with her sub is their own dynamic, but I wouldn't castigate or blame the sub if he decided to not assume a vegan diet, nor would I particularly care if he accepted it.

Like all religious matters, it's best left up to the individual's conscience.  Attempting to coerce someone to change their beliefs is rarely successful in the long run, in our society.  Conversion through other means tends to be more successful.

FHky



Arpig -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:18:09 AM)

quote:

Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why?


No. But I am not a vegetarian, and so clearly do not understand the need of every vegetarian I have ever encountered to try to "convert" everybody within earshot, or to try to force their unpalatable meat-substitutes on all and sundry.

Regardless of all the arguements that I have heard in favour of vegetarianism, the fact still remains that Homo Sapiens are an omnivorous species that have been eating meat for as long as they have existed. I figure why fuck with a million-odd years of well-established tradition.

As to you deciding that your slave should join you in your unhealthy diet, well you can do what you want with your slave, but to my mind it borders on abuse.



eroticangel -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:31:15 AM)

i was married to a vegetarian...i cooked his meals and cooked mine and the kids. sometimes we all ate what he did....we lived very happily like this for a lot of years .  I don't see the need to make someone change their eating habits. it's such a small thing in the universe.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:34:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette
Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism?

I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd deal.  I learned in college with dorm food that, if in certain environments, I could be happy with being a vegetarian- but I certainly prefer the choice to eat good meats and animals.
quote:


Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why?

Depends on why I'm making it.  If I feel it's an important enough choice for both of us or if I just want us to do it together, then sure. 

quote:

But I understand that someone's diet is a very emotional thing for many people. Food is intimately connected to our daily lives and whole sub cultures are built around diet choices.

All in all I am curious to see what different people say about this topic as I haven't seen anything posted recently about anything close to it.

I think you're making decisions without information.  You were having health problems on vegetarian diets before- what will you be changing this time around so you don't get those problems? 

You are indeed changing the expectations and how the relationship works in a big way, so I'm glad that you are discussing it rather than just slamming the door.  This really isn't one of those discussions or limits that people tend to have, which just shows that having a checklist of things from a bdsm website really doesn't discuss the realities of long term relationship issues.

Ultimately, if you've discussed it with a dietician or physician so that you know this is a truly healthy choice for you both in the long term, you should wean him off of meats and make sure he eats properly within a vegetarian diet.  While I understand his reticence, as long as you do your homework you aren't requiring anything of him that will damage his body, and it's doubtful that it will take away any sense of self (if it does, then there's a bigger issue to deal with). 



WhipTheHip -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:40:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Potatos are a complete food.  Humans can live on
potatos.  


A potato weighing 100 grams provides approximately 2.1 grams of incomplete protein. The average male body requires 56 grams of protein per day, the average female requires 44. You would need to eat an awful lot of potatoes...and if they were your sole diet you would never get complete protein from them.


The Irish survived on potatoes and virtually nothing else. Today, many people
of the world survive on a diet consisting mainly of potatoes.  
 
Hunger is the best sauce.  I never liked fruits and vegetables, but now I love them. 
People acquire a taste for foods.  It especially helps to be a great cook.
 
"Complete" Proteins?
by
Charles R. Attwood, M.D., F.A.A.P.
Until recently, animal proteins from meat and dairy products were thought to be necessary in order to obtain what nutritionists called "complete proteins."   Proteins are composed of amino acids, 12 of which are manufactured by the human body. Another 9, called essential amino acids, must he obtained from food. Most animal products, such as meat and dairy products, contain all of the essential amino acids and have been designated as containing complete proteins. Most proteins from vegetables also contain all 9 essential amino acids, but 1 or 2 may be low in a particular food compared with a protein from most animal sources. Beans, however, are rich sources of all essential amino acids.
The old ideas about the necessity of carefully combining vegetables at every meal to ensure the supply of essential amino acids has been totally refuted. Modern nutritionists, after observing populations of strict vegetarians who were healthier and lived longer than meat-eaters, now realize that all essential amino acids may be obtained from a variety of vegetables or grains eaten over a one-to-two-day period. This should be a great relief to you as a parent. Even the variety is not as critical as once thought. Dr. Reed Mangels, nutrition editor of Vegetarian Journal, illustrates this by pointing out that if you decide to eat only six to eight potatoes you would get all the essential amino acids you would need in a single day. Of course, her example was intended only to show that combining food daily is not critical for obtaining essential amino acids; eating only potatoes is not recommended, because a more varied diet assures you of other necessary nutrients.  Meat is not necessary to ensure a supply of complete proteins.



losttreasure -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:40:36 AM)

Fast reply...

FHky, I knew there is a reason that I love you. [;)]

*laughs* I'm a meat lover, too... but you knew that.



cloudboy -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:42:51 AM)


From looking at profiles a while back it struck me that gay, male doms were fairly regularly into culinary discipline and picking food for their subs.

I have not seen this tendency with females or heteros.




littlesarbonn -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 6:48:01 AM)

If I was in the service of a Mistress, and it was her desire to have me become a vegetarian, it wouldn't be a second thought for me. I would become a vegetarian.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 7:19:55 AM)

Fast reply:

WARNING: THREAD HI-JACK!

For all the vegetarian and vegans reading this thread - technology is to the point now that we could grow meat from cells harmlessly harvested from animals, much like hydroponics.

Would such meat still be off your diet?  Assume no harmful hormones and such, just "vat grown" beef and chicken, for example, which originated from free, wild and unharmed animals which were pampered and allowed a full and nature life beyond the depredations of man.

Would you still have objections to eating such meat?

FHky



Bluetemptation -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:05:08 AM)

Personally I can go vegetarian for a while, I do when I am feeling like it, or when I am on holidays with some of my female friends. But for me it will never be about the poor animals. It is about respecting the wishes of others, not needing to cook twice, not being in the mood for meat, liking potatoes better.
I would try the other approach, cook vegetarian for a while, introduce him to the products you use then, especially the soy products and that, show him alternatives, let him try it out. Let him see how it works out with his health, not everyone can go vegetarian.
Personally I crave meat every now and then, when I go vegetarian for a while, because there are people who don't get into conflict with their morales, people who like the taste of meat, who need it more than others, for nutritients because their body works different.

My best friend went vegetarian years ago, then after years of skin trouble they found out that the source was an allergic reaction to gluten, lactose and eggs. So she stopped being vegetarian, because she had no way to get her nutritiens and stay healthy without some meat. Still she only likes fish, chicken and bacon, but she changed to accomodate her health.

If you make sure that his health will be taken seriously and the possibility to go back to meat is there, if his body cannot cope without it, and if you introduce him to good tasty vegetarian food, it might work out.



MsSonnetMarwood -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:15:58 AM)

This is a rather interesting thread.   I really don't see requiring a sub to become a vegetarian to conform to the Dominant's lifestyle any different than I see a Dominant requiring a sub to maintain a healthy balanced diet, to exercise regularly, to put a certain percentage of their salary in a savings account, to go out to local clubs every Friday night because the Dominant likes that club, to go to a restaurant the Dominant likes but not the sub, to wear red panties every Friday, or to not engage in masturbation without permission.   Clearly there are a lot who don't see it on par with that.

Yes.   Just like switching any diet, vegetarianism would require some level of learning to understand how to keep it balanced and healthy as well as learning some new culinary skills, just like low carb or low fat or low salt  or high fiber based diets would.   But then, don't we all spend time learning more about any variety of things on a regular basis?



darkinshadows -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:17:07 AM)

quote:

I think for most people, the choice to start a vegan diet IS a "religious" decision.  For the poster that said that homo sapien isn't a meat eater in nature - the facts are against you.  Man is an omnivore.  That means he'll eat ANYTHING that doesn't kill him (and I don't mean other predators).

This isn't a vegan debate.  This is a debate on vegetarianism.  Huge difference.
Religion is totally different to food.
The facts are actually against you.  Humans are originally fruit eaters. They are constructed (internally and teeth)  to originally consume and digest fruit.
 
Peace and Rapture
 



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