RE: Forced Vegetarianism???

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mnottertail -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 1:59:01 PM)
There is a Gorean thread going on right now that intimates that we are rapists by nature. Fairly cogent one too. Ron

darkinshadows -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 2:02:52 PM)
The only thing your post proved is that you do not like someone disagreeing with you and it must make them 'snarky'. Like I said before - I welcome a discussion, not a pissing contest and if you cannot hold such, I do not have the time to waste. TOS suggest no personal attacks. I suggest you read them, go vent elsewhere then hold a discussion. Have a good day. Peace and Rapture

FirmhandKY -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows The only thing your post proved is that you do not like someone disagreeing with you and it must make them 'snarky'. Like I said before - I welcome a discussion, not a pissing contest and if you cannot hold such, I do not have the time to waste. TOS suggest no personal attacks. I suggest you read them, go vent elsewhere then hold a discussion. Have a good day. Peace and Rapture I dare you to post a poll and ask the majority of the posters/readers who was snarky and making personal attacks in this thread, and who was trying to carry on a conversation/discussion/rational argument. Show me a single personal attack, or even snarky comment I made to you. I did suggest that you were distracting from the conversation, not adding to it. I did go and read the TOS and the Collarme.com Forum Guidelines before I made my last post, to ensure that I was following them. I also read them with an eye towards your behavior, but decided that while you were boardline in violation, I wasn't going to make an issue of it. The part that I thought you were/are in danger of violating is the "maturity" and the "personal attacks" part. Relevent sections: TOS: 4.3.(8) Insults to other persons or companies, including but not limited to: material that is threatening, harassing, libelous or in any way a violation of intellectual property laws. Forum Guidelines: Considering the natural diversity of opinion and expression, it is expected that disagreements will often occur. While debate is fine, postings of the sort generally known as "flames" is not. Participants are not expected to coddle one another, but they are expected to keep things within the realm of maturity. This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others. If you don't like what another person enjoys, rest assured that there are plenty of others out there that probably don't like your activities either. Furthermore, harassment and personal attacks will not be tolerated. I would suggest that you not attempt to either intimdate or threaten me. I don't engage in "pissing contest" very often, but I tend to win them when I do. If you want to have a discussion about the topic of this thread, please make an effort to control yourself, Whatever other issues you may have, I respectfully suggest you discuss them with your dom or whatever other significant other you may have, and do not attempt to make me or other members of CM your unwitting emotional outlet. That being said, and returning to the topic of this thread, you have not respond in any shape or fashion to the substance of my last rather lengthy post. Should I take it, then, that you either agree or can not refute anything I have stated there? FHky

FirmhandKY -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:38:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There is a Gorean thread going on right now that intimates that we are rapists by nature. Fairly cogent one too. Ron Ron, Could you direct me to the specific thread? I looked at the titles of all the threads on the first two pages, but none appeared to be related. thanks, FHky

Sunshine119 -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 5:42:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette I have a bit of a query to put to all submissives/slaves and Doms/Dommes.... Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism? As a 36 year vegetarian, I can state with absolute certainty that if His Highness decided tomorrow that I needed to eat meat in order to remain his.....we would no longer be together. 36 years ago vegetarianism wasn't popular. It was difficult to find appropriate foods that provided all the protein and amino acids necessary....but I did. I lived with a meat eater throughout my 20 year marriage. He respected my decision. I respected his. He ate meat. Of my two children, one is vegetarian, one is a meat eater. His Highness is a meat eater. We have an agreement that he will respect my decision and never ask me to eat meat nor try and trick me into eating it. Maybe you would consider this my greatest limit. But it is up there with my belief in a God (after obtaining graduate degrees in Theology, I'm even more confused as to what this means) and with my political beliefs. We are whom we are. If you don't like the basic essence of the person you are with.....why are you with him? Food, and belief systems are part of our basic essence. sunshine

Nikolette -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:01:31 PM)
sunshine: I absolutely love who he is.. And I enjoy his basic essence. He is compassionate, loving, tender, fair, generous, sweet, affectionate and ethical. He's definitely embraced aspects of vegetarianism after being introduced to some added information, but there was a reluctance about other aspects he was tied to. I don't NEED him to change his belief system... And in fact I am unsure about how I would feel if he ate SOME meat items when we aren't around one another, meaning I might (but probably not) would be open to it. I really can't believe that someone's basic essence is what they put in their mouth. This is really ... at heart... about me not wanting to be around the consumption of meat when I am meat free. Its a choice I have, and one he is more and more willing to comply with. Today for example he went out of his way to really particpate in the meat industry in a way that would be enlightening for him, in a way that will open a door to him coming to terms with the direction I'd like him to go, in his own way. Now... as for "We are whom we are." I follow a lot of eastern philosophy and one lovely statement of thought goes like this: "People believe change to be the hardest of all things, but really its simply adding to what is already there." I love that. I love that concept of a fluid identity, of a vibrant fluctuating entity. .. FirmhandKY You said: "Isn't that an ethical question in this context? Doesn't it seem to be an ethical problem for her, whether or not to "force" her sub to do something that he and she have strong and diametrically opposed beliefs about? Isn't she wrestling with her conscience? Isn't that an ethical dilemma? " This really isn't accurate at all, and while you didn't say it to me, I would like to let you know that I am not wrestling at all with my conscience. I made my choice and sort of wanted to know how other people viewed it... if they had an opinion, WHY it was such. And to that end, I was sucessful. Additionally... My slave and I do not have "strong and diametrically opposed beliefs about" it. We generally agree. He however loves seafood. He would like to linger around with it, and try to negotiate a bit more than I am comfortable with. I don't really find an ethical problem in asking him to accommodate one of my beliefs, rather than another. I think I can carry this out compassionately and patiently, and its acceptable to me and him. Thus there isn't an ethics debate for us, but rather a curiousity about how others view it. In life, not just this lifestyle... people find a balance that works for them. I respect everyone's choices, and don't go around encouraging every Tom, Dick and Nancy to agree with me... I would definitely have an ethics choice on my hands if I were considering going out and becoming a Vegetarian Missionary, set on saving the world. I am trying to aid changes, but this is in animal treatment and rights... NOT in making anyone become a vegetarian for moral reasons. The real moral reason at hand is that I believe animals are treated in a vulgar, hideous, hateful manner in the meat industry. I don't want to be a participant of that, and am trying also to find legitmately cruelty free ways to buy my dairy and eggs (of course there is some debate about killing for my food being "cruelty free" but.. to each their own). But there are lots of other reasons for me too. There are reasons beyond my ethics for encouraging him to go meat free with me, and to reiterate as I have before. This has been a long time coming, and was accompanied with a lot of research and thought and just needed patience added to the mix.

juliaoceania -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:12:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I cannot imagine that something I ingest outside of someone else's presense could make some else physically ill. So I guess your point is lost on me. Well there's peanuts. I was friends with a couple once who had two daughters, one of whom was highly allergic to peanuts. It was so bad that neither her nor her sister could buy candy that had been produced at plants which also processed peanuts. Or there's the case of my aunt and her husband. He was exposed to a chemical at work and over time developed a huge allergy and health problems which basically took him from an active, healthy strong young man into someone who can't leave the house on hot and muggy days due to breathing problems. My aunt has had to change her entire perspective on the relationship, act in a completely new role than it was established for the first years, they don't go out on trips, they don't socialize as much, their sex life is completely different. Things change. Deciding whether you can accept change or not is a personal choice and one is not bad or wrong for deciding that they cannot accept a certain change- but to deny out of hand any possibility of growing with the change seems a bit short sighted. Having an allergy to those things is not necessary for my health. I can skip peanuts. I have no problem forgoing chemicals in my life, I am not overly fond of any of them. Like I said, if it is necessary to life, then I am not forgoing eating it. There are amino acids in meat that have no vegetable counterpart. Different amino acids do different things. It would be like telling me I could not eat green leafy veggies, or carrots, or citrus. I have no trouble giving up a peanut, but giving up and entire food group is another issue entirely

FirmhandKY -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 8:21:38 PM)
Nikolette, I have nothing but respect for you and your decision and your ethics. I do not believe I've said anything negative in that vein. Perhaps I stated it stronger than you are comfortable with, when I said it was an "ethical dilemma". It was/is however, something in which you were feeling less than certainity about, in requiring your sub to adhere to your moral decision, was it not? Your man has stated his case quiet well in his earlier post, and far be it for me to put words in either his mouth, or yours. I sincerely hope that you both can work through this and grow in your relationship. Well wishes to you both. FHky

Nikolette -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 9:08:31 PM)
FirmhandKY, You definitely haven't added negativity to any aspect of these threads at all. But you are right, it was stronger than in my comfort level. :) I was truly feeling less than certain about outright forcing him to, yes. I am also truly thrilled the situation has not panned out like that. I knew that I would be willing to justify it to myself under the head line of "No Rights for Slaves" concept... but whether it was something that I could really respect about myself? I doubt it. I know he'd comply, I know I'd have made him. I am just happy its not like that. This thread was truly a bonding thing for us. He felt a lot more invited to open up a real conversation for it, and I said to someone else... he really took this upon himself to personally motivate himself in a direction that adds serenity into our relationship, rather than conflict. In seeing how many submissives have a lot of boundaries about this thing, I feel like that he has accommodating my shift in the rules of our lives at this stage in the game. I think its an exceptional and in my own clearly biased opinion a superior position to take. This is a gift he's chosen to joyfully give and I really haven't often been more proud of him. I believe this little journey and the initial trial of it will really aid our bond and give him a lot more self respect about his submission. This will be a continuous gracious sacrifice on some levels, as well as bring us closer together as partners in life, both of which are huge benefits. Many people thought that this would be a deal breaker for them, but I am a little doubtful about that. I think that the year and a half of work we've put into building a life bond that was founded on respect, communication and trust would legitimately hold us together through much more complicated trials than this one. I believe that other couples who shared that type of intimate bond would also move in a fluid direction toward compromise and such, rather than rejecting one another. If he couldn't respect my choices, and couldn't respect my leadership, and couldn't trust my best intentions and loving choices- our problems would be much more than: "Why won't you stop eating fish corpses for me, you little brat?!". I really believe that other people who have a pretty solid relationship built like ours would be able to address this in a similar fashion, I think most subs and slaves are aware that a good owner is hard to find, and would be willing to accommodate their desires out of respect and submission- even if they can't find a moral reason to motivate more them like my own slave did. Thank you for your sincere wish for us to get this successfully sorted out... this has all turned out so much better than I hoped.

juliaoceania -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 9:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I cannot imagine that something I ingest outside of someone else's presense could make some else physically ill. So I guess your point is lost on me. Well there's peanuts. I was friends with a couple once who had two daughters, one of whom was highly allergic to peanuts. It was so bad that neither her nor her sister could buy candy that had been produced at plants which also processed peanuts. Or there's the case of my aunt and her husband. He was exposed to a chemical at work and over time developed a huge allergy and health problems which basically took him from an active, healthy strong young man into someone who can't leave the house on hot and muggy days due to breathing problems. My aunt has had to change her entire perspective on the relationship, act in a completely new role than it was established for the first years, they don't go out on trips, they don't socialize as much, their sex life is completely different. Things change. Deciding whether you can accept change or not is a personal choice and one is not bad or wrong for deciding that they cannot accept a certain change- but to deny out of hand any possibility of growing with the change seems a bit short sighted. Having an allergy to those things is not necessary for my health. I can skip peanuts. I have no problem forgoing chemicals in my life, I am not overly fond of any of them. Like I said, if it is necessary to life, then I am not forgoing eating it. There are amino acids in meat that have no vegetable counterpart. Different amino acids do different things. It would be like telling me I could not eat green leafy veggies, or carrots, or citrus. I have no trouble giving up a peanut, but giving up and entire food group is another issue entirely I wanted to add to this, my Daddy cannot eat certain things that I love, such as onions. He is allergic to MSG also, so I read the back of things before I feed it to him. He has many allergies like I do, and for the most part we just live with it. I have no problem accomodating him with these things... I just wanted to point out that there are things I will forego for my Daddy, I use onions for everything when we are not together, I avoid them when we are, even though he can take enzymes that will help him digest them if necessary.

truesub4u -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 9:52:28 PM)
Reading through this thread... shaking my head. And so now gonna add my petty 2 cents worth.... If eating.. or not eating... is a relationship breaker... then it's time to break the relationship. I have to agree with sunshine.. it can be worked around. And if it can't.. then time to move on. Some people can't stop doing certain things...some can. Apparently you can....apparently he can't.. or doesn't want to. Either way... if he's that special to you... then you'll work this out around him...and he would be willing as your sub to work around you as you stop eating the damn meat. But to MAKE him stop eating what he's eaten all his life..(when he doesn't want to... nor think it's good for him to go your route). is just not only foolish.. it's self center..and you're wrong in doing so. Put the shoe on the other foot...... what if because you decide no more meat... he decided he can't ... or won't.... submit to you?

WhiplashGirlChld -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 10:11:30 PM)
quote: I have a bit of a query to put to all submissives/slaves and Doms/Dommes.... Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism? Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why? Funny thing... I became totally veg largely in part because my sub has been for decades. To vastly alter one's diet is not something I would ask of another, but I think it is one of those things like smoking that can be a deal breaker in a relationship, especially if one is morally opposed to meat - as many are. I couldn't have a smoker live under the same roof as me again. If an otherwise worthy sub wanted to be here, he or she would have to quit. I am not sure I could have a registered Republican either! LOL. I guess it really just comes down to: "How important is it?"

WhiplashGirlChld -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 10:15:38 PM)
quote: There is a Gorean thread going on right now that intimates that we are rapists by nature. Goreans are rapists? I thought y'all were just sci-fi geeks. Go figgr.

troch -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/17/2006 11:09:53 PM)
I want to point out that Niolette is in Boston and wants to cut off his seafood consumption. That hurts to be that close to the sea. Anyway, I have been a non red meat eater for 15 years, but not sure if I could give up seafood. A lot of the argument about being a vegetarian is more about what they are feeding todays livestock. When someone brought up the point about where you get protin, it made me think of this cartoon: http://www.happycow.net/humor_images/protein.gif Hope you think it is funny.

Chloelicious -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 1:34:35 AM)
Nikolette, To answer your question towards subs/ i think that as a submissive, i would at least try the vegeterian regimen to see if I can "tolerate" it as twicehappy suggest it. Now I got a few questions: Are You vegeterian or vegetalian? I think i've already had the answer but if you don' t ask , you dont know. What kind of relationship do you have ; are you Mistress/ Submissive or Mistress/ Slave? I think that the answer to the last question is "important" to distinguish if You would LIKE your sub to became vegi or You WANT him to be a vegetarian. Cause for me as a sub, you still have the choice as long as you thought about all the implications and you tried to experiment what you must change in your life. If we talk about slavery (in the totallity of the term) i think all this person have to do is to adapt himself to your standard. Once again like Twice happy said you must be aware that it should "blow down" your relationship. I hope i did nt get you wrong in anyway cause i'm not fully aware of the in and outs of vegeterianism Chloé

Wolfie648 -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 1:52:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette I have a bit of a query to put to all submissives/slaves and Doms/Dommes.... Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism? Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why? I was once a vegetarian. I hate seafood to start with so that was never an issue. I could not remain a vegetarion once I started martial arts. My slave does as she is told. I need to account for possibilities in her life - physical job? Probably requires some consumption of meat. Consult a dietician. D (owner of j).

darkinshadows -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 3:22:03 AM)
Like I said, I do not partake in pissing contests. You can say I agree all you like with what you say if it makes you feel better, but your perception does not make reality. Like I said, I will hold a discussion with anyone, but not with one who 'knows' they will 'win'. I apologise to the OP and her boy for this interuption of their thread - it wasn't my intention for the thread to degenerate. Peace and Rapture

meatcleaver -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 3:22:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism? I would sit down to eat with them with a whopping steak cooked rare so blood would drip down my chin as I took a bite.

Sasy -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 4:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette Well, I suppose there is some room for debate about this. Although I definitely disagree and perhaps should note that my becoming anemic previously was due to my living environment, and having inadequte resources to prepare proper meals for myself. Namely having NO kitchen to either prepare my food or store it, since I was living in a tiny economy apartment years ago. My issues lies here within this statement ... Coming from one who really doesnt enjoy meat.... no kitchen and no place to store foods .... A bag of nuts is not a storage issue in my books. If this were me and going to the other side where I was required to eat meat, I couldnt do it... While moving this past couple weeks I found take out burgers on the menu to often now for two weeks I have been ill anything that I eat makes me sick at my stomache. My household has meat eaters in it, tho I do not like it I cook it. One of my kids developed my taste the other did not ... and is pretty much a meeat and potato person. Even tho he is a slave and I do not know the communitcation level , perhaps he needs time to more adjustment time or perhaps given the option to dine out for these foods. I know rules can change in a relationship but this one is bigger than how to get your hair cut (and that one would likely be a deal breaker if I were to have to cut mine short). And the fact this was not covered in intial terms... I guess I do believe there needs to be more time given to accept or negotiate terms

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? (8/18/2006 7:15:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism? I would sit down to eat with them with a whopping steak cooked rare so blood would drip down my chin as I took a bite. Ya know - this pretty well sums up how I feel about the whole thing. I am a Carnivore by nature and preference. I've found over the years that I don't function well if I avoid meat - and that I actually function more efficiently if I avoid most veggies, ANY processed sugar (which is hard, since I'm a chocholic lol) and practically all grain products. I can't make myself stay in a relationship with someone who's core beliefs are vastly different than my own. Religion, Politics, Social Issues, Body Mods, Motorcycles, Dietary Habits, non-BDSM related Hobbies - all of those things are part and parcel of the package of Who I Am, just as much as what my preferences are when it comes time for someone to get tied to the whipping post for some play. And what all of that boils down to is : if you don't agree with the way I live, then why did you want a relationship with me in the first place?

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