quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Nasty, interesting. I would also not that nobody can ever know what time it is. When the measuring device you see strikes midnight for example, it is already past midnight. At the very least by as much time as it took for the reflected light to travel from the clock or whatever to your eyes.

Whip, I don't think we can say that all black holes deposit their gleanings to one part of space. There are some things we simply will never know. If I were very old and living several centuries in the future, and owned a spaceship, I would fly into one. I would then have the knowledge, but could never impart it to anyone, if light can't get out of there nothing else can. Sorta like death, you read about near death experiences, but it was from living people. I know a guy who died twice, he is outside fixing my car right now. That means he didn't gie. His body may have stopped functioning, but not permanently. He is not fixing my car by astral projection.

If anyone ever actually achieves time travel, they better be damn smart. they could anihilate themselves with one word. I wrote of this in a fictional work, and I have given it alot of thought. First of all what would yoiu do ?

First of all you can'[t get rid of your enemies beforehand, if you did you change your timeline so drastically you would not be the same person. A similar problem happens when you change historical events, like if I were to fix it so the south won the civil war.

The US would be alot more unlikely to get into WW2 and my Parents would not exist. Therefore I would not exist. If I go back into my own past I could give myself winning lottery numbers or who knows what. Again, if it was long ago I wouldn't be the same.

Most of the time, time travel, which should be illegal, would be done for personal gain. That might mean passing of gambling results to the past, but I would suggest that it only be done for a month or something. In other words if I went decades into the past, got myself set for life and destroyed a few enemies, or potential enemies, my own personal history is changed. Therefore the person that I am today does not exist. I don't want that.

Travelling to the future is another option, but there are a few things about that which will not go away. Let's say I decide to go to the future and bring me back some advanced technology. Up until my departure my timeline is intact, but thereafter who knows. There are additionally many problems, first of all, I would most likely not have any money, scrip, credit account or identity. I also do not know what I am looking at, it may be a police state with checkpoints and all the high tech is protected.

I have no way to steal and no way to buy. If recognised as being from the past I might be considered a ciminal, by them. After all I would be fucking with their timeline. I doubt the truth would get me much help.

Like that Twilight Zone where the guy is off the noose and in the big city a few hundred years later. He is not ready for it. For all I know the language may have changed as well. So I would be there with no identity, no money and nothing to offer.

Let's face it, if someone came up to you and said "I am from the past here getting information to take back with me", what would you say ? I would tell the guy to go pound salt. This is not just my future you intend to fuck with, it is my past. The past that created me how I am.

I can see no possible incentive to do that.

Time travel is probably a bad idea all the way around. I illustrated the point in my book. The fictional character who had been in suspended animation for 400 years went back to see his old GF. He wanted to tell her he was alright and she should go ahaed and try to be happy. When she told him she wished he had come 20 years ago he did just that.

Once he did that she made different life decisions and married a boyfriend she hadn't before, not knowing her beloved was gone for good. In that year she only knew him to be missing, it wasn't that long.

Well she marries the guy and after the familiarity sets in he becomes abusive, and almost kills her. Cripples her for sure. You know what the main character wanted to do, but he can't. He could, but not without risking everything in the new present.

Actually in the book there were people around who kept him from going back and killing the creep, they talked him out of it and would've physically prevented him from doing it if necessary. The thing is, if anyone ever discovers how to travel in time, they will not have any such constraints or advice. If they don't think it through they could easily change their own past enough so they might not exist.

Let me sum my opinion up. Even though I don't think time travel is possible, I cannot say that it is impossible. I'd bet my bottom dollar that it will not happen in our lifetime. If I lose I lose, but I cannot say that it never will, all I can hope is that the person who does it is intelligent enough not to destroy us all.

T

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"And we all know what happens when
two atoms try to occupy the same space.. "

yup...the one that has more energy moves the other one out of the way.
Happens all the time in any gas or liquid.
Were you thinking of matter and anti-matter perhaps?

Are not matter and anti-matter merely theoretical, just as time travel? Anti-matter being the counterpart of matter, and associated along the lines of parallel universes.... is the earth and it's carbon based lifeforms made up of carbon matter or carbon anti-matter...

The displacement of free electrons in an atom is a fundamental aspect of electrical current flow... the pushing of free electrons by a force of larger energy. Conductors of electrical energy all share the quality of free electrons.... non-cunductors (insulators) have no free electrons thus do not conduct electrical flow.  The higher the current flow from a high energy potential (amperage), the closer conductors get to melting or simply vaporizing... as do fuses, and arc welders.

Electrical current flow does not split atoms as in nuclear fission, it displaces free negatively charged electrons, and does not affect the protons in the nucleus of the atom (only the orbiting negative electrons)... unless the capacity of the conductor in use is exceeded.... then melting, or vaporizing occurs as it destroys the facilitating vehicle (conductor).

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

>> If you are moving through time not space, you don't move
>> anything out of the way, you just materialize in an earlier
>> time, in which case many of your atoms will likely find
>> themselves occupying the exact same space as other
>> atoms.  Something moving at us from the future would
>> not move anything out of the way.  It would suddenly
>> materialize in our time frame, then disappear into the
>> past.
>
>  And as Einstein has said, 'Schlau, aber nicht wahr.'  Clever, but not correct.

Hello Mnottertail,

I knew Einstein, and I can assure you, you are no Einstein.

> The theoretic principle has never been dis-proven.

What theoretic principle are you talking about?

> Time as we understand it, does not flow from present to past.

No one ever made this claim.  Who do you refer to as "We"
Do you have multiple personalities? Are you refering to all
your alters?  Contrary to your opinion, time as we
understand it is not wet.

> Additionally, if one is an adherant of the Copenhagen Interpretation.
> (It has alot of currency) all outcomes are taking place simultaneously

First this is not what the CI says.  Second, I don't know a single
cosmologist that accepts the CI of QM.  The CI can't be correct
for the following reasons:

1.  It claims there is no objective reality between measurements.
2.  It needs the concept of measurement but is unable to define it.
3.  It is unable to tell us where the line between the sub-atomic world
    where QM is operable and the macro world where it is not.
4.  According to CI, the QM should operate in the macro world but it doesn't
5.  According to QM, the universe needs obeservers to exist, yet there were
    no observers just after the BB.
6.  According to QM things happen for no reason.  It is not a causal theory
    like all other fundamental theories in science.
7.  CI is not reconciable with GR.  GR is a causal, continuum theory.
8.  According to the CI, the universe is contantly chooses just one path from
    from an extremely large number of equally good paths making reality
    infinitely random and capricious.    
9.  The CI voids the anthropic principle, and produces many paradoxes like
     the fine-tuning problem.
10. Einstein, Dirac, and Schrodinger objected to the CI on many grounds.
11.  Roger Penrose states we have to conclude it is just plain wrong.
12.  Stephen Hawking and every noted physicist I know rejects the CI.
13.  Even those physicists who reject other interpretations, reject the CI.
      Most physicists who reject the MWI, say it is not necessary to interpret
      QM at all.
14.  The CI needs observers but is unable to define what constitutes an
       observer.
15.  The Hugh Everett Many-Worlds interpretation which I independantly
       discovered resolves all the paradoxes created by the CI.
16.  The CI interpretation creates the paradox of wave-particle duality and
       requires the nonsensical, contrived principle of complimentarity

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Whip.....i think you need to relax a bit and have a chat to someone regarding the difference between science and dogma (also a quick course in precision writing wouldn't do you any harm, but i digress), the following statement of yours gives away your fundamental misunderstanding.

"The BB is a historical fact."

we may well be able to say the Big Bang is the best explanation for the currently observed phenomena, we might also say we believe it really happened. But once we throw phrases round like 'historical fact' it's only a few steps away from'there can be no other explanation' and, ultimately, 'burn the heretic'.

Science, not dogma.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The pairing of quarks spin has proved that time travel exists in some form, or there is a violation of speed of light as we know it. By what mechanism we cannot yet explain with certainty.  We know the quantum foam exists, we have seen it. There are no vacuums but those you use in your house.Nautura Abhorum Vacuuomo (Lam or Bob fix that up for me, please) is as true today as in ancient roman times, again.

Interestingly enough, within this week I read a small article buried on the inside pages of some minor current events paper, I believe it to be the Fargo Forum; that has stated that humans may have sighted concrete evidence of dark matter, which would bring it to the forefront of the realm of the ponderable universe.  Seems a neutron star collision aftermath (best I recollect) was being very obviously pulled to a dark imponderable region.

There was another article nearby that discussed  the possibility of  finding  a missing bosun or some such  routine  shit, when compared to  a hook into dark matter  (which is most of the universe) that  I  cannot remember the gizmo.

To sleep, to dream..............

Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The problem with time travel surely has to do with the problem of bi-location of particles in space? For instance, my body as it is right now, consists of particles which have been brought together from all over the place to form it - before they were part of my body, they were located elsewhere - in the food/drink I consumed, in the air that I breathed, and ultimately in my mother's and father's body. If I were to time travel back to 1968, then the particles forming my body would necessarily have to resume the locations they occupied in 1968 - otherwise, the same particles would exist twice in 1968; once in my body and once in the natural environment as it was in 1968. If I travelled back to 1966, before my mother was even pregnant with me, then I would have to totally disintegrate as all the particles in my body would to resume their 1966 locations - rendering me incapable of operating the time machine to return to the present. Incidentally it would also mean that the time machine itself would disintegrate for the same reasons. It may just be that the above is proven incorrect because it is not for certain what a particle is, however it just seems to me that unless we live in a universe where whatever we are made from is able to exist independently at every moment in time in multiple ways (ie a particle could exist at one and the same time in a potato, in my body, in your body and within the core of a star for example), that the above problem must prevent time travel.

This also applies if one concedes that there is no past or future, only a continuous present that always is. Even in the continuous present, a particle has to be in one place and not everywhere all at once.

In any case, there is no such thing as time anyway - its a delusion we experience as a result of ourselves perceiving separation from the All, and those selfs then observing the cosmic motion and perceiving time. The cosmos and the All exist in no-time.
E

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Time has always fascinated me.  I studied the affect of approaching the speed of light on time when I took physics in college.  Another thing that affects time that most are not aware of is gravity.  This has been demonstrated conclusively by NASA using atomic clocks.
 
Two clocks were synchronized.  One was left at the airport and the other was loaded on a plane that then flew at high altitude for a number of hours.  When the two clocks were compared after the flight, the clock on the plane was slightly behind the one on the ground.  The experiment was repeated several times to verify including swapping the two clocks so each would take the flight.
 
This experiment was inspired when it was discovered that clocks on the upper floors of skyscrapers constantly need to be set forward periodically because they run slower than those near the ground.  Switching the clocks proves this as they still run slower the higher up they are.
 
There are many other fascinating experiments that demonstrate how movement also effects time.  I'm sure mass has a lot to do with it.  But there's another kind of time that I believe most people are also not aware of...psychological time, better known as memory.
 
I've stated this in other threads.  Our thoughts are time in the sense that they are of the past.  Everything you think (think as opposed to experience) has already happened if even a split second ago.  You see something or hear something, your mind interprets it and a thought is formed.  By then, it's already happened.  Your identity is also memory based so who you are is also in the past always.

When you think about yourself, you are thinking from memory.  The same holds true when you tell someone else who you are if they ask you.  Only direct experience with the absence of thought is the present but you have to learn how to develop a quiet mind to experience it.  This is what Zen is all about.  Zen is not a religion like most people think...it's a state of mind, a quality of being.
 
So, here you have a quick synopsis taking the subject of time and following a path to what it is to experience being alive.
 
anthrosub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

If one were to view our universe from outside it. ( A paradox ) It would likely look a speck. Just before it exploded again. ( Oh, it is constantly exploding )

I like these snakes eating their tails and winking into and out of existance. I am quite comfortable with it all.

Living with Relativity is better than living with relatives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Kedikat - absolutely right. And this is why time really has no existence except to those observing it in the universe, and since those observers are part of the universe it is impossible that they can observe it at all, unless they somehow have separated themselves from it through self. Overcome self and one is restored to the All and passes into no-time. From there one could "time travel" since all states and all times that were previously observed, exist at once in the All. However, having achieved no-self to do so, one would not have any motivation to time travel?
E