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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 7:12:35 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		> I disagree with number 5. The very short of it is I believe that any
> particle, even if it isn't the dictionary definition of an observer,
> can cause the collapse of an indeterminate state of a particle if
> itself depends on (interacts with and thus "observes") its state.
> Particle one can't decide whether or not it decayed. Particle two
> needs to know if particle one decayed or not because if it did
> then particle two would be struck by it. Particle one decides.
 
In the classical version of the CI, there has to be an observer
to collapse the wave-function.  John Wheeler worked on this
problem for quite some time.


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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 7:57:35 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The last I heard nothing goes at the speed of light but
light. 
 
This is true, and further, even light rarely travels at the speed of light. It does a good job in a vacuum.
 
If everything quantum was at the speed of light there would be no necessity for accelerators.......
 
One hopes to get smashing material such as an electron, to perhaps 85% the speed of light or so...............    

There is more to the quantum world that can be visualized by the naked eye, I think.

LOL,
Ron 

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 8:24:44 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		All this quantum theory is all very well, but I still want to know about my cigarette.
E


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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 10:15:44 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		well, first we have to know the brand, is it filtered.......

c'mon, you ask us to postulate with no data points?

Ron

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 10:26:33 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I have been thinking and thinking and thinking...............

information/no mass/ and the talk by Hawking on black holes and information escaping trivial and non-trivial............I am in an intellectual entanglement about this now; still, with myself.  I will have to ponder some more........You got me on this one, BIGTIME!!!!

The avatar is buried deep within the avatars on this site.

LOL,
Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 2:26:47 PM   
ULive2MakeMeCum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

I might possibly suspect that Bill Gates is an example of time travel.

A geeky little guy from the future that was messing about with gadgets in the basement and presto! Now he can be a billionaire and rule the geek world of the past. He just seemed to do a couple very lucky things and hooked up with the right geeks. Of course he now uses his ill gotten temporal gains to subtly avert the rest of us from discovering time travel and better computer systems.

Oh both Bill and jobs stole all the important stuff from Xerox for their respective companies. You should watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" it's not entirely accurate, but you'll get the jist of it.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 2:38:43 PM   
ULive2MakeMeCum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

OK - maybe I'm stupid.........maybe things can exist in the same time at different places.

Say I have a time machine right here, right now. I'm sitting in my time machine, and I take a cigarette from the packet of 20, put it in my mouth and light it. Then I switch the machine and go back just minutes in time. Where is the cigarette when I arrive ten minutes ago? Is it alight? How many cigarettes are in the packet?

The fulfilment of my nicotine craving having been frustrated, I switch the machine and come back forward to where I left from. Where is the cigarette now? Is it alight?

I then take another cigarette (or possibly the same one I started with), light it up and switch the machine to go forward ten minutes. Do I have a pile of ash in my lap, or do I have a freshly lit cigarette in my hand? Or have I by then smoked another?

And what happens to the cigarette if I dont light it at all? Does it remain in my hand if I go back ten minutes, or does it resume its former location ten minutes prior, in the carton?

This is what has to be considered, not the niceties of quantum physics - quantum physics will not help me to smoke my cigarette on my time machine, and will not help me when I disintegrate. I perhaps used the wrong word when I used the word particle.
E


This is why I roll my own cigarettes lol.
If you went back in time with a lit cigarette and checked the pack it would still be there and its other time traveling self would be sitting away at your lips. The real paradox comes when you try to smoke a cigarette in the past that you have already smoked before traveling back in time. If the many worlds theory is true then you could be smoking cigarettes from other parallel universes where the "other you" in that universe swore of smoking and or time travel. Quantum superposition could be the cigarette xerox machine when combined with time travel the only catch is it would cost you more energy to go back in time then it would to make another box of cigs.

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 2:47:05 PM   
WhipTheHip


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat
I might possibly suspect that Bill Gates is an example of time travel.


Bill Gates is an asshole.   He stole MS-DOS from Professor Gary Kildall.
Then he spread false rumors about Professor Kildall's OS  DR-DOS.
Then he blatently violated the Sherman Anti-trust act by threatening
not to do business with any company that did business with
Professor Kildall.   Professor Kildall was more responsible for the
personal computer revolution than anyone else.  In his emails
to his employees he sounds like Al Capone or Gotti, not a
businessman.  Then Bill Gates bought second-rate applications
and made them the de facto standard by requiring all
manufacturers who wanted to do business with him to pay
him for the priviledge of offering these applications on all
the computers they sold.  In this way Bill Gates killed off
computer applications that where much better than the ones
he offered.

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 2:51:54 PM   
WhipTheHip


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ULive2MakeMeCum
Oh both Bill and jobs stole all the important stuff from Xerox for their respective companies. You should watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" it's not entirely accurate, but you'll get the jist of it.


Okay, Steve Jobs borrowed GUI from Xerox, but Xerox wasn't doing anything
with it, and Xerox was a big company, and didn't complain.  Xerox could have
taken on Steve Jobs if they wanted to.  On the other hand, Professor Kildall
was in no position to take on IBM and Microsoft.  In the US, if you have lots
of money, you can make a lot of lawsuits against you unprofitable.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 8/25/2006 2:53:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 2:52:32 PM   
ULive2MakeMeCum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

To those that say time exists as a thing unto itself. How would you measure the passage of time, if absolutely nothing was happening?
An event happens. Till the next event happens, how do you measure the passage of time?
If only two events ever happen, then the time between the events can only be measured as the the time between those two events. so that is the infinite and total passage of all time. If a third event eventually happens. Then the time between the first and third event is the total infinite amount of all time. The second event defining a percentage of time between the other two. Of course you would need a whole bunch of events happening in between these other events to count, in order to define the timespans.
Time is only a definition of the repitition of things happening.


How do you measure a meter? Do you use a ruler? your feet? a meter stick? how do you know that your meter stick is exactly one meter? I would bet that it isn't. You know how a meter is defined? It's no longer a bar of platinum Iridium sitting in a glass case somewhere.
The new measurement is how far light will travel in a vacuum in 30.6633 cycles of the cesium atom. Now thats pretty exact. So how do we measure time? A very smart fellow Max Planck came up with both what is believed to be the smallest measure of length and the shortest measure of time possible (as long as nothing breaks the speed of light). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time the explanation is rather dry but it basically says that the smallest unit of time would be the amount of time it takes a photon of light to travel the shortest measurable distance a Planck length

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 3:22:08 PM   
ULive2MakeMeCum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: ULive2MakeMeCum
Oh both Bill and jobs stole all the important stuff from Xerox for their respective companies. You should watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" it's not entirely accurate, but you'll get the jist of it.


Okay, Steve Jobs borrowed GUI from Xerox, but Xerox wasn't doing anything
with it, and Xerox was a big company, and didn't complain.  Xerox could have
taken on Steve Jobs if they wanted to.  On the other hand, Professor Kildall
was in no position to take on IBM and Microsoft.  In the US, if you have lots
of money, you can make a lot of lawsuits against you unprofitable.


Borrowed? ok so they didn't legally steal it. Xerox gave away what the execs didn't know they had. If you look at the overall history of the personal computer I would say that jobs is much more evil then microsoft. MS threw money at the maker of dos and he jumped on it. Apple has some of the most closed off hardware and software on the market. Now if only MS didn't dominate with proprietary API's maybe I could play some good games on Linux without using DLL emulators

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 11:13:13 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		Bill Gates and Microsoft did not give the creater of DOS one penny.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 11:25:08 PM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ULive2MakeMeCum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

To those that say time exists as a thing unto itself. How would you measure the passage of time, if absolutely nothing was happening?
An event happens. Till the next event happens, how do you measure the passage of time?
If only two events ever happen, then the time between the events can only be measured as the the time between those two events. so that is the infinite and total passage of all time. If a third event eventually happens. Then the time between the first and third event is the total infinite amount of all time. The second event defining a percentage of time between the other two. Of course you would need a whole bunch of events happening in between these other events to count, in order to define the timespans.
Time is only a definition of the repitition of things happening.


How do you measure a meter? Do you use a ruler? your feet? a meter stick? how do you know that your meter stick is exactly one meter? I would bet that it isn't. You know how a meter is defined? It's no longer a bar of platinum Iridium sitting in a glass case somewhere.
The new measurement is how far light will travel in a vacuum in 30.6633 cycles of the cesium atom. Now thats pretty exact. So how do we measure time? A very smart fellow Max Planck came up with both what is believed to be the smallest measure of length and the shortest measure of time possible (as long as nothing breaks the speed of light). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time the explanation is rather dry but it basically says that the smallest unit of time would be the amount of time it takes a photon of light to travel the shortest measurable distance a Planck length


Of course this exact measure of time is only relative to the gravity field you are in, and the velocity you are travelling to relation to all the rest of the things in the universe. And even this measure of time is defined by physical events. The time itself is not measurable as a thing that exists unto itself. It is defined by the interval of somewhat regular events in a specific state.

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 11:32:19 PM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have been thinking and thinking and thinking...............

information/no mass/ and the talk by Hawking on black holes and information escaping trivial and non-trivial............I am in an intellectual entanglement about this now; still, with myself.  I will have to ponder some more........You got me on this one, BIGTIME!!!!

The avatar is buried deep within the avatars on this site.

LOL,
Ron


I would not think information has no mass. If that is what you are contemplating.
To create and send the information requires energy. Mass and energy are of course integral things. Information and the transmission of it will at some point require energy.

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 11:36:35 PM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that Gates gets far more credit and cash than he deserves. The huge headstart he got courtesy of others mistakes has been largely squandered. Xerox, IBM, and others underestimated a lot of things that Gates put a lock on.

I consider him a third rate mind and even businessman. MS products are nowhere near what they should be, with the resources available.

But he did it, and the others missed it. Good for him, too bad for millions of us.

Support open source.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/25/2006 11:49:38 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat
I agree that Gates gets far more credit and cash than he deserves. The huge headstart he got courtesy of others mistakes has been largely squandered. Xerox, IBM, and others underestimated a lot of things that Gates put a lock on.
I consider him a third rate mind and even businessman. MS products are nowhere near what they should be, with the resources available.
But he did it, and the others missed it. Good for him, too bad for millions of us.
Support open source.


Gates stole MS-DOS from Professor Kildall.   This was a case of blatant, deliberate theft.

(in reply to Kedicat)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/26/2006 4:56:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is where I am peaking on the paradox, Kedikat. Information in this sense must have mass, because it is being delivered by observation and therein light. This is along the lines of what Hawking said in that reference by ULiveCrew a couple pages back (I actually read that dry shit, and followed most of what he was saying, Hawking that is.......sometimes that guy can put some really pretty pictures in your head, and sometimes his arguments are totally above anything I could ever hope to understand)  and how there was no loss or gain in the black hole and put  a rather large  kibosh on the time travel with black holes  gedanken.

Rather fuzzily, I am opined that quark pairing does not somehow violate speed of light and has something to do with more dimensions like an ability to warp them or something.

I am interested in science but very open to fantasy as you can tell.


LOLOL,
Ron  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/26/2006 4:57:54 AM >

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/26/2006 5:49:08 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Hawking that is.......sometimes that guy can put some really pretty pictures in your head, and sometimes his arguments are totally above anything I could ever hope to understand


Having been privileged to once attend a lecture given by Hawking i could not agree with you more; i had to buy his book to try and grasp some of his theories but at other points you can easily visualize what he is describing.

Who knows maybe in our life time we will uncover the truth behind his theories; after all a hundred years ago space travel was only a dream.



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Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/26/2006 6:14:46 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

She took pictures, in fact, but there was another person involved too, so I can't share the photos because of her privacy.  Otherwise...[


Tease!

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RE: It is impossible to travel through time because tim... - 8/26/2006 6:34:48 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
Status: offline 		just a general reply not directed at previous poster.

I'm not a expert on the subject. But If you go off the assumption the total energy constant of the universe is constant(nothing is created nor destroyed just changed in form), then it would be impossible to to send additional matter and energy back in time, because it would cause a increase in total energy potential of a past universe you were going to and a decrease in the future universe. Doesn't this violate the basic laws of physics, being the conservation of energy?  In other words a closed system(the universe), can't increase the total energy potential of everything therein, because that would violate fundamental laws of physics. I guess we could rewrite the laws?

Am I missing something here. I could be





< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 8/26/2006 6:40:07 AM >

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