Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 1:58:26 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:00:56 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		It depends on what people actually do when they're in the military. As someone with a Father who was in the Royal Air Force and an Uncle who was a bomb disposal expert in Northern Ireland I have my own opinion on the value of being in the armed forces.

If an ex-serviceman can put up what they actually learned (or did not learn) during service then it will be possible to make a judgement on the exact value of the time served..

Regards

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:03:02 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I may give an unpopular point of view on this topic but considering I have more males in my family and circle of aquaintances that have served in every branch of the military, and one that is not in a "branch",  than alot of people I feel I can give something of value.

NO, having served in any branch of the military does not make them better citizens or more important. It does not mean they will be smarter, have a higher moral standard, be more disciplined or any other load of crap. They are not better employees, better fathers, spouses, siblings, citizens, or leaders. They are human beings just like everyone else. They have flaws of character just like everyone else. Being in the military did not make them better equiped to handle life, some of them are actually less the person they began because of what they have been thru. They were not strong enough to handle the pressures and fears. Yes, some of them flourish and become better people for the experience. Many others do not. No different than the trials and demands of life.

Someone very close to me was awarded the Bronze star in Iraq, they refuse to wear it or discuss it. The reason being, this person's opinion is that they were "just doing their job"  Yet, another close family member saw zero, icky bad stuff. They cannot manage themself, cannot keep a job, the house is a hog pen, they have a huge chip on their shoulder. Feels the world owes them because by god they served their country!

In my circle of family, friends and aquaintances every branch of the military is represented and every level of service is represented. Even one that is career and non-classifyable because of the special nature of their job. What I have noticed is that the ones that have done the most, have the most to brag about, don't. They are the most unassuming, most likely to say, and mean it, "I was just doing my job" The ones that whine and talk the most, were desk jockeys, truck drivers, cooks etc........most never left US soil and most were just in it for the college money.......running as fast as they could as quickly as they could.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:07:06 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Ken,

Just read your post. Can you give some examples to support your 7 points. For example, what is it about the military that eaches people a work ethic that they couldn't be taught in civilian life?

Regards

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:15:30 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ken,

Just read your post. Can you give some examples to support your 7 points. For example, what is it about the military that eaches people a work ethic that they couldn't be taught in civilian life?

Regards


it is called punishment.   In the civilian world the worst they can do to you is fire you which some people see as a reward cause then they can get unemployment.  Not so in the military.  Punishment varies but it can be quite severe


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:17:14 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............


Absolutely.   I claim respect.  I claim what I have worked for and wass promised for that work.   Just like any professional in the civilian world would.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:18:54 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Ken,I'm not a big fan of "degrees" unless you're going to specialize in something like law, medicine, engineering or something like that.
And there are now *so many* lawyers in this country that they are canibalizing each other. Look for their rates to come down. The law of supply and demand.
Colleges and Universities have become "degree factories."
And the kids getting out of them know little about U.S. History, Civics, Math and a lot of other things. Seems all they want to do is sit in front of a computer all day.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:20:16 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmm, open to debate. You could turn the argument around and say loss of employment, livelihood and shoes money for the missus can be far more traumatic than physical punishment.

1) Examples of punishment would be useful here.
2) What makes you think that punishment will foster a better work ethic than encouragement/reward?

Regards

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:22:14 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

As an Army retiree with a son who retired from the Army last Thursday and another son who served in the Navy and a step son that retired from the Navy my beliefs are:

1. the military, regardless of branch, helps young people grow up quicker and helps them become better citizens, more responsible for their lives and thier families lives.

2. the individual soldier has had his/her benefits erroded. When I went in the Army I was promissed full social security and my retirement (provided I spent my 20 years). Well I did. Now I will only be eligible to the amount which is greater (even when combined) and free medical for life (I pay for medical coverage and have a co-pay on my scripts).

3. I believe that all young people, male and female, with or without families, regardless of most disabilities, should spend time in the military. I believe it helps them later on in life.

4. I believe that the military teaches what colleges and universities don't - the ability to think through a tough problem with positive outcomes. Some people call this common sense.

5. As an 18 yr old in 1967 I was in charge of millions of dollars as a contract administrator. You don't get that in civilian life.

6. The military teaches a good work ethic.

7. I don't believe that a career in the military is for everyone. I think it takes a special personality to put up with the 20 hr days and 7 day weeks with the associated BS that goes along with it.

I also feel that the peace corps is a good alternative. the majority of people that I know that have been in the peace corps are very responsible adults.


having served 6yrs in the air force, i wholeheartedly agree with you KenDckey.

i'd also like to add that many times while in uniform, 'we' were stereotyped as being on welfare, not paying taxes, and taking a 'handout'. it was my choice to enlist rather than take a handout and be supported by welfare. i was a single mom in the military at the age of 19. i'm a fighter and unwilling to give up. i'm also very proud to have served my country. i have great resepect for those who made a career of it or serve any time and come away with more than just having done their time.

there is not one career that is more important than another. unfortunately, status is determined many times by income.

it takes us all to make the world go 'round...

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:30:15 PM   
addisonclarkgirl


Posts: 346
Joined: 7/16/2006
Status: offline 		The military is just another part of our society.  Many people put themselves in harms way doing their jobs.  Many people see things and do things that other professionals wouldn't see or do in their lines of work.  Other jobs create leadership and organizationl skills.  Many people out there are responsible and have self control. 

i am a teacher, and i can tell you that teaching a child to read is salvation for him, freedom for him, adventure for him, creativitiy for him, and so many other things.  It's my job though; i love it, but it is my job.  It does not make me any more special than anyone else, and very rarely will you see a teacher receiving awards. 

This is just one example.  Nurses, doctors, firefighters, even recreational directors are life saving professionals as well.  There are many more.  Being a soldier does not make one any better or special.  It's a job.  Everyone plays a part in this world, and we all deserve respect, no matter what we do, so long as it is earned and not just handed out because "Oh, i'm a soldier...oh, i'm a teacher." 








_____________________________

I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set her free...Michelangelo


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Princess_of_Naughty_Pics

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:32:26 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ken,

Just read your post. Can you give some examples to support your 7 points. For example, what is it about the military that eaches people a work ethic that they couldn't be taught in civilian life?

Regards


the military brings structure, accountability, discipline.... it brings hope to those who would otherwise fail in the civilian world. they are taught to work together for the 'mission' and know the importance of their part in the 'mission. this brings a sense of pride and honor. there is also a camaraderie that is quite lacking in many work places in the civilian life.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:35:10 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		OK  here is what really urks me.   I have  personally been spit on; had shit, rocks and other crap thrown at me; and been denied entry into civilian establishments because I was a soldier.   I almost lost my personal vehicle when some fool tried to take it from me because I was taking my pregnant wife and toddler son home (I lived on an Air Force Base).  the fool met Mr M1911A1 .45 cal pistol for his troubles.   My pregnant wife was gassed (which can cause a spontaneous abortion) for this and similar incidents and my house was downwind.

I don't really care if anyone agrees or disagrees with what I do.  It is legal and done because it is public policy.   But I deserve respect for it.  I deservve to be treated with that respect.  I deserve to have my accomplishments appreciated and those things that didn't go as well to be under appreciated (Yes I lost a job once cause I screwed up).

I look at people who work retail.  I see how they are screwed over by the retail system which doesn't adequately prepare them to move up, even in an emergency and then punishes them for failing in their responsibilities regardless of how short term.

I look at professionals.  I see them hiding behind their degrees with comments like "experience doesn't mean a thing unless you have a sheepskin."  It doesn't matter how good or bad the professional is, it feels like they have to protect each other for their screwups. 

A prime example is where an engineering firm built a chemical room at a sewer plant that I worked at.   The process failed due to really poor engineering,   A mechanic with a HS education without the guidance of a supervisor completley redid the room and it's plumbing for about $50,000.   We had estimates for the work to be accomplished at over 1/2 million dollars.   And what did he get for his efforts?   Demoted to mechanics assistant because the engineer in charge didn't get his cronies a nice plush contract.  Fortunately the Union saved the mechanic.  We had 5 people injured in the room before the corrections were made.

it is all about respect.   respect for what one regardless of what one does (as long as it is legal) and acknowledgement for his/her accomplishments.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:39:17 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: addisonclarkgirl

The military is just another part of our society.  Many people put themselves in harms way doing their jobs.  Many people see things and do things that other professionals wouldn't see or do in their lines of work.  Other jobs create leadership and organizationl skills.  Many people out there are responsible and have self control. 

i am a teacher, and i can tell you that teaching a child to read is salvation for him, freedom for him, adventure for him, creativitiy for him, and so many other things.  It's my job though; i love it, but it is my job.  It does not make me any more special than anyone else, and very rarely will you see a teacher receiving awards. 

This is just one example.  Nurses, doctors, firefighters, even recreational directors are life saving professionals as well.  There are many more.  Being a soldier does not make one any better or special.  It's a job.  Everyone plays a part in this world, and we all deserve respect, no matter what we do, so long as it is earned and not just handed out because "Oh, i'm a soldier...oh, i'm a teacher." 



Rec Leader   now that is an underappreciated job if there ever was one.   they underfund our parks and rec programs yet it is these very programs that help combat gangs and gang violence.   Yes I worked in parks too as their safety officer

(in reply to addisonclarkgirl)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:40:29 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Only in the military they want you to believe exists.

I am sorry, but for every point you make I could name names of career soldiers that are examples the exact opposite. Ranking officers that happily compromised their soldiers physical and mental welfare for their own personal gain. Officers that are now in the Pentagon because they did SUCH a good job of serving themselves. It is no different than big business. Kiss ass, suck up, get dirt, work it, make alliances, screw the people that get in your way, many that covered your ass, all to get the promotions and ackolades.

IN FACT, there was an entire batallion that got sent to Iraq for another tour that they were not supposed to do when there were others that had not been at all........JUST so a colonel could get his promotion.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 8/24/2006 2:44:40 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to surly)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:44:10 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		surly,

You're offering an opinion but not supporting it with reason.

For example, what is it about the military that provides structure, accountability and discipline that couldn't be provided in civilian employment?

Regards

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:46:50 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, being a veteran of the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard I've done and seen things in the military that I never would have seen and done in civilian life.
And I do have that "can do" attitude in life because after doing so many harroing, dangerous things in the military civilian life is a breeze.
What other people consider "problems" in life I just walk around or through. And it's helped my leadership and especially my organizational skills immensely!
(It's called, "What they don't teach you in Harvard Business School.")
It also teaches you discipline, self control, and respect.
I'd hire a veteran without a college "degree" over a college graduate anyday in business.
I'd get a lot more bang for the buck.
A lot of the management techniques that they teach in colleges and universities come from the military.


Excellent post Popeye.

I pretty much share your position....  Having grown up in extremely affluent surroundings, I got out of high school and moved up to Chico to go to school. Not only did my father pay for every single thing including the purchasing of a three bedroom house for me to live in.... but he also paid the full tuition and all living expenses for one of my best buds as well. I had the greatest time in the world.....but only lasted a little over a semester as all my time was spent partying and messn’ around. Needless to say.... my father being the kinda guy he is {I learned early on... never to throw good money after the bad money}.... cut all the money off and kicked us outa the house.

After that.... my options were rather limited. So along with three good friends, we joined the Marines. And the Marines really instilled a lot of self-discipline and brought me back down to reality. And like you.... I went to so many far away places that I would have never seen on my own. It was a great experience I tell ya…. but had I known then what I know now.... I woulda got my shit together early on and finished my education early.


JMHO


 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:52:38 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just a point on the poster who said that military personnel put their lives at risk for us. In fact statistically that is only true of a small minority of the total numbers involved in any conflict.
In any major MODERN war civilians are the most at risk.  See Lebanon right now !

A hard nosed  callous point I know...but true

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 2:54:19 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Only in the military they want you to believe exists.

I am sorry, but for every point you make I could name names of career soldiers that are examples the exact opposite. Ranking officers that happily compromised their soldiers physical and mental welfare for their own personal gain. Officers that are now in the Pentagon because they did SUCH a good job of serving themselves. It is no different than big business. Kiss ass, suck up, get dirt, work it, make alliances, screw the people that get in your way, many that covered your ass, all to get the promotions and ackolades.



i saw all those things, i like to call it 'politics'. however, i also learned all the things i mentioned beforehand. i was honorably discharged earlier than intended because i failed to meet the military's view of my physical stature. i was punished for being overweight. i had not lost the added pounds from pregnancy in as effeciently an amount of time as they wanted. i was treated as one of their 'criminals'. i received letters of reprimand. i was counseled. i was monitored monthly as to my weight 'status'. Basically, i was a 'marked' woman. however, rather than feel sorry for myself. i played their politics and came away with an early discharge and money in my bank account to boot!

learning the 'politics' of the military is quite an experience and very useful in the civilian world.

as i stated before, we are all important members of society. i absolutely disdain the thought of someone thinking lesser of me because of what they believe to be is a 'higher standing career'. i have been a stay at home mom since i separated in 1999. my children are now 8 and 14. they are commended for their manners and politeness in public places quite often. i believe i am doing a great job with them. but that gives me no right to claim a higher social status than anyone else. i also do what i do becuase i love doing it. :-)

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:01:27 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

surly,

You're offering an opinion but not supporting it with reason.

For example, what is it about the military that provides structure, accountability and discipline that couldn't be provided in civilian employment?

Regards


interesting... do you mean by citing specific examples?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:07:26 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Just a point on the poster who said that military personnel put their lives at risk for us. In fact statistically that is only true of a small minority of the total numbers involved in any conflict.
In any major MODERN war civilians are the most at risk.  See Lebanon right now !

A hard nosed  callous point I know...but true


Last planning ratio that I heard was for every combat arms soldier there were 10 support personnel

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of society? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078