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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:10:21 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		surly,

Basically, I would like to see some logic to support your statement. You can do this however you see fit.

Regards

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:13:45 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline 		this statement really does say it all for the experience my family took from the time served. technically, we can claim 'veteran' status, but for reasons of our own, we decline.

quote:

"I was just doing my job"

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:23:44 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline 		okay, here's what i've got (as demented as it might be... *lol*)

by stripping away the individual and attempting to create a 'soldier' - a doer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

surly,

Basically, I would like to see some logic to support your statement. You can do this however you see fit.

Regards

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:24:10 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, yeah, yeah.  First of all, that comment was directed to Popeye, not you.  Second, why did I know I was going to get a response like that?  Relax.  You shouldn't have to impress absolute strangers on the internet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Of course, that statement makes me wonder how many employees you've hired in your life, but I'll refrain from asking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'd hire a veteran without a college "degree" over a college graduate anyday in business.
I'd get a lot more bang for the buck.



I am a 20 year veteran.   I have been a contract administrator, in charge of millions of dollars.   I have been a computer programmer.  I am one year short of being qualified for my masters in Logistics.   I have a national certification in Occupational Safety and Health.  I represented the United States in a Maritine Law dispute.  I have both prosecuted and defended over 100 judicial and non-judical cases and never lost (I plead some down but I don't consider that a total loss).

AND I ONLY HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION.   Colleges teach a lot of theory, but lack the practicle experience and politics to get things done (agressiveness).

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:24:47 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		LOLOL, Ranger!
"Man, you're ass is in a world of shit!" Good post!
You fucked-up big time but came out of it real good!

Surly, you're right about that, in civilian life no-one really "cares" about "the company" and friendships are pretty shallow of the drinking at a bar type.
How can anyone have any "Allegience" to a company or corporation which could fire you tommorrow morning?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/24/2006 3:28:34 PM >

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:40:02 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: surly
i was honorably discharged earlier than intended because i failed to meet the military's view of my physical stature. i was punished for being overweight. i had not lost the added pounds from pregnancy in as effeciently an amount of time as they wanted. i was treated as one of their 'criminals'. i received letters of reprimand. i was counseled. i was monitored monthly as to my weight 'status'. Basically, i was a 'marked' woman. however, rather than feel sorry for myself. i played their politics and came away with an early discharge and money in my bank account to boot!


So surly this is what you are saying....
Whatever you may think of the military...You joined
Failed to meet the physical standards that you must have known were required.. If you didnt know at the start you were definately told.
Got some money out of it.

Needless to say its everybody else's fault. Certainly not surly's.

Am I right ?

(in reply to surly)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 3:55:37 PM   
surly


Posts: 148
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: surly
i was honorably discharged earlier than intended because i failed to meet the military's view of my physical stature. i was punished for being overweight. i had not lost the added pounds from pregnancy in as effeciently an amount of time as they wanted. i was treated as one of their 'criminals'. i received letters of reprimand. i was counseled. i was monitored monthly as to my weight 'status'. Basically, i was a 'marked' woman. however, rather than feel sorry for myself. i played their politics and came away with an early discharge and money in my bank account to boot!


So surly this is what you are saying....
Whatever you may think of the military...You joined
Failed to meet the physical standards that you must have known were required.. If you didnt know at the start you were definately told.
Got some money out of it.

Needless to say its everybody else's fault. Certainly not surly's.

Am I right ?


pardon? what is everyone else's fault? I see no fault to be had. the attempt was explaining that every 'business' has it's politics and the military certainly is no exception. Also, yes the requirements were there. it was after several years of enlistment that they were deemed offensive enough to call for a 'discharge', this was instilled during the infamous 'downsizing of the military'.

< Message edited by surly -- 8/24/2006 3:57:38 PM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 4:01:46 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

surly,

You're offering an opinion but not supporting it with reason.

For example, what is it about the military that provides structure, accountability and discipline that couldn't be provided in civilian employment?

Regards


      Contrary to the recruiting BS and despite many seeming similiarities under peacetime conditions, the military is not a job.  You take an oath.  You surrender your Constitutional rights (at least for U.S. forces) You can't quit.  They own you and can get you killed.

    Been there, done that.  Yup, I made about a 1000% return on my college investment and that was nice.  The next thing I expect from the Government for my time and service is a Flag to drape over the coffin. 

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 4:40:26 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		".........in civilian life no-one really "cares" about "the company" and friendships are pretty shallow of the drinking at a bar type."

...i'm not sure this is true and it is, in a way, why i started the thread. when Popeye speaks of 'civilian life' it seems to me he makes that everything non-military. As a vet this is perfectly understandable behaviour. All that time in the forces, with their utterly non-civilian rules and regs. It would be surprising not to have that perspective. Where i am less certain is the way that the whole of civvy street is written off as a less character building experience. With regards to the quote i took (sorry Popeye, but you have the bad luck to write succinctly enough for me to cut and paste ya) i used to work in the UK post office. The sense of cameraderie there was phenomenal. Same when i worked as a nurse. Nowadays i work in theatre, and the friendships i make now are so not of the 'drink-at-a-bar' type.

Are vets encouraged to set themselves apart from civilians? In a way that can sometimes seem to have some small piece of contempt in it for civilian life? i have seen a similar dynamic encouraged in police officers, perhaps it is a bigger phenomena than just military life?

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 5:06:08 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  First of all, that comment was directed to Popeye, not you.  Second, why did I know I was going to get a response like that?  Relax.  You shouldn't have to impress absolute strangers on the internet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Of course, that statement makes me wonder how many employees you've hired in your life, but I'll refrain from asking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'd hire a veteran without a college "degree" over a college graduate anyday in business.
I'd get a lot more bang for the buck.



I am a 20 year veteran.   I have been a contract administrator, in charge of millions of dollars.   I have been a computer programmer.  I am one year short of being qualified for my masters in Logistics.   I have a national certification in Occupational Safety and Health.  I represented the United States in a Maritine Law dispute.  I have both prosecuted and defended over 100 judicial and non-judical cases and never lost (I plead some down but I don't consider that a total loss).

AND I ONLY HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION.   Colleges teach a lot of theory, but lack the practicle experience and politics to get things done (agressiveness).



I am sorry    I didn't realize that your comments were directed exclusively (which should probably been done offline but what the heck   you are the lord and master of the universe - your universe not mine).

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 5:13:44 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

".........in civilian life no-one really "cares" about "the company" and friendships are pretty shallow of the drinking at a bar type."

...i'm not sure this is true and it is, in a way, why i started the thread. when Popeye speaks of 'civilian life' it seems to me he makes that everything non-military. As a vet this is perfectly understandable behaviour. All that time in the forces, with their utterly non-civilian rules and regs. It would be surprising not to have that perspective. Where i am less certain is the way that the whole of civvy street is written off as a less character building experience. With regards to the quote i took (sorry Popeye, but you have the bad luck to write succinctly enough for me to cut and paste ya) i used to work in the UK post office. The sense of cameraderie there was phenomenal. Same when i worked as a nurse. Nowadays i work in theatre, and the friendships i make now are so not of the 'drink-at-a-bar' type.

Are vets encouraged to set themselves apart from civilians? In a way that can sometimes seem to have some small piece of contempt in it for civilian life? i have seen a similar dynamic encouraged in police officers, perhaps it is a bigger phenomena than just military life?


I agree the dynamic is greater than just military.   Police and fire both refer to the general public as civilians. 

I also believe that there is a similar dynamic in the civilian world.   i.e. suits vs blue collar vs white collar

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 6:48:01 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well there's certainly more commraderie amonst veterans, police and fire personel than other proffessions.
They're dangerous jobs.
I have a ship's reunion comming up in Oct in Virginia Beach, Va.
I'd much rather attend that than a college reunion with "Ole Binky" from Whatsammatta U. who became an accountant!
One of my shipmates got out of the Navy, went to accounting school and started "Tele Check." He started a bunch of other businesses too and is a multi millionaire.
Some of the other guys are High School Principal, Teachers, various business owners, a CPA, an M.D. Ret. Secret Service Agent, Firefighters, and Policemen, and one made a career of the Navy and retired a few years ago as a Master Chief Petty Officer.
He was the Command Master Cheif on the U.S.S. Kearsarge.
And all were "enlisted" guys.
But, that's something that no-one can take away from us is our service and our status as "Veterans."
I've met a lot of guys in their 40's and 50's who "wish they went in."

How can anyone have any "Alleigence" to a Corporation where everyone else is out to cut your throat?
Or to a school where you drank beer and threw up in your early 20's and just barely passed?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/24/2006 6:54:12 PM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 7:02:56 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Are vets encouraged to set themselves apart from civilians? In a way that can sometimes seem to have some small piece of contempt in it for civilian life? i have seen a similar dynamic encouraged in police officers, perhaps it is a bigger phenomena than just military life?


       Can we define what is meant by 'vet?'  Are we speaking of anyone who has performed military service or just the 20+ year.  There is a seperation (and sometimes a bit of contempt even in that).  It goes both ways.  Pour some saki into a service buddy and myself, we'll drag out the old gripes about "chickenshit bastard, chair-driving, lifer, sons a'bitches, taking it out on us because the wife quit putting out years ago, drunk by 5:30 up in the Top3 Lounge."  They'd probably call me a "smart-ass punk with no business in 'my' Air Force who got his college money and left."  Just perspective I suppose.

      We are not encouraged to be seperate, we simply are, in large ways or small.  Service begins with boot camp, a trial by ordeal.  Not everybody passes that test.  To this day, I will interact with some person and, in the back of my mind, I know he wouldn't have lasted two days.  I would definitely say that having served breeds a contempt for the selfish and lazy.  Those who will not try, will not be tolerated.  It needs to be that way to accomplish the mission.

      Mission.  Perhaps that is what really marks all the professions mentioned beyond military.  Police and firefighters also run towards the problem instead of away from it.  The rest of you are just civilians.

     

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 8:06:50 PM   
addisonclarkgirl


Posts: 346
Joined: 7/16/2006
Status: offline 		 i know people who have retired from the military or finished their time due, and afterwards became wife beaters, drug addicts and unemployed. 

Don't get me wrong; i appreciate what the military does for me and this country.  i pray daily for them.  They deserve respect, but only if it's earned.  We can't just lump every individual person serving or every veteran into a category of greatness.  It doesn't happen. 

< Message edited by addisonclarkgirl -- 8/24/2006 8:07:49 PM >

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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 8:49:46 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		I define a veteran like the VA does.   Someone who had completed 6 months in the military or something like that.  Used to be anyone who served and got out of basic (I think that was one of the errosions).

I agree that not all veterans are perfect model citizens.  They are a cross section of society.  But as a whole, they are pretty good people who generally move to accomplish the mission (civilian or military).

For those of you that don't know what a LIFER is, and I am one.   A lifer is a person who retires from the military.  The reason that they call us that is because we can be recalled for life.   I believe that the oldest person recalled for the war on terrorism was 72.   Retirement from the military is far from retirement in the civilian world - they can't recall you to be a mine field finder.  the pay we recieve as military is a retainer fee (there is a supreme court decision on that).  since the govt is paying us a retainer fee, then drawing social security is considered double dipping and after I went in they passed a law prohibiting that.  My neighbor across the street is retired from both the military and civil service.   he forgave his military retirement pay and is entitled to civil service retirement and social security.   Civilians don't have to worry about these quirks.   They get their retirement and social security no problem.

Not all but lots of police and fire also get a special retirement system.  At age 55 they can freeze their retirement and take home their contributions while their employer continues to contribute their portion.  They are required to totally retire by age 65 and they are entitled to a lump sum equal to their employers contribution plus interest.  My former municipality was the first to offer this to all employees, but we are funded so that the politicians can't touch the money.   In fact, we were well off enough that we returned all employer contributions since 1955.

(in reply to addisonclarkgirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/24/2006 10:19:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Wyrd, if you served you're a Veteran.
I was a "Lifer" but had to get out on disability after 14 years but I never saw a difference between me and my guys who were younger.
As for me I loved the Coast Guard and probably would have stayed for 30 if I could have.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 1:44:25 AM   
prdslave


Posts: 190
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		I dont claim that Im deserving of any more respect than any one else. I was combat arms support/Signal Corps in the army. Korea was peaceful, most risk I ever encountered was fighting through traffic from Uijongbu to Seoul.

So, to answer the question about a critical care nurse/ER nurse vs what I did - Id say the nurse would deserve more respect, because of the bigger impact made. But thats just my opinion.

_____________________________

heaven is mac OS X , on a sleek little MacBookPro, broadband connection

hell is Windows 98, wireless USB adaptor

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(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 2:33:44 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		A soldier can be anything. It depends on what they do as they are in the services. And it also depends on the person they are. People do things for various reasons. They are affected by the experience to different degrees.

Anything can make you grow as a person, corrupt you, crush you.

Of course some careers and experiences are more apt to change you, enhance or lessen you. Some come with an inherant honour for you to live up to or disgrace. Soldier, nurse, police, volunteer, and others are seemingly more sacrificial and good. But living day to day. Carrying your own load, whatever it may be, has sacrifice and honour.

The military, as all things, is what you make it, and what you give to it, learn from it. It can be sacrifice, refuge, a test or a coast. Often to be a good soldier is to fight to do your duty while fighting to remain true to yourself. To leave the force is not always release from the war.

One does not need to be a soldier to be a hero or fight for ones country and ideals. Sometimes it is the opposite.



(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 2:50:59 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well there's certainly more commraderie amonst veterans, police and fire personel than other proffessions.
They're dangerous jobs.


Many posts in the modern forces aren't so dangerous, particularly in a hi-tech military where you video kill your enemy. Combat troops are only a section of the military.

I remember working in the coal mines some thirty years ago and more miners were being killed and injured a year than the military, police and firemen put together. That won't be the case now with Thatcher having killed off the coal industry and Blair doing his Dr Strangelove impersonation in the shadow of Bush.

Construction workers have a high percentage of killed and injured per capita as do fishermen. Wearing a uniform doesn't mean you are the only one who puts yourself in danger for the sake of society at large, though choices of job are largely personal and nothing to do with society at large.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 4:24:28 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

From my obversvations ~most~ of those that have served their country
are light years ahead of many of those who have not.  They seem to be better equipt to handle life.  I'm sure it's just a personal thing with me, but I'll take a Military friend/partner or Dominant anyday over one who has not done their time.  I honestly do belive that thru their service they come home as better individuals. 

just my .02

Q


I second this post.... thank you Q


_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 60
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