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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 4:57:21 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The military commit a lot of war crimes. Several which are now under investigation in Iraq. There is more than enough evidence to suggest soldiers often lose control and it is innocent civilians that get murdered, not the enemy that get killed.

My uncle who fought in WWII said, never let it be said that we were better than the Germans, I've seen enough murders by our side to know we are more than capable of doing exactly what the Germans did. He was signally unimpressed by the restraint and discipline of men in uniform.

(in reply to Quivver)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 5:21:55 AM   
kisshou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Surely being in the military is merely one of many types of unique, socially valuable experience, shouldn't all people whose work contributes to society should be valued equally?



I value people who put their lives on the line more.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 5:52:45 AM   
Master96


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		Being a soldier is something bad for me………

I don’t know if the American soldiers return home better persons, after what they did in Abu Ghraib prison.

Iraqi army:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/14/iraq13982.htm

Master96,

< Message edited by Master96 -- 8/25/2006 5:54:10 AM >

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 8:19:19 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		As someone who many look to as a knowledgable source regarding firearms, I have this to say.  Seldom have I heard more idiotic statements expressed with more certaintly by either military or police regarding firearms.

Soldiers in general are taught that whatever they are handed is the "best" and taught the "best" way to use it.  They get little if any training on foreign weapons and when they do it is pretty shallow.

My level of knowledge is such that you could disasemble probably any military firearm someone could name, throw all the parts into a bin and I could reasemble them all.  When I say disassemble, I don't mean fieldstrip, I mean take out every pin, screw, and spring.

Most soldiers are barely allowed to fieldstrip one weapon but they always claim that due to military experience they "know it all".

Same goes for geopolitical strategy, many ex-military people act as if they are the only ones who "get it".

Of course this isn't always true and is often less true of those who serve long term in special ops.  However, even that creates a blind side.  Many now believe one of the reasons that our plan in Iraq was so shortsighted is that the general who planned it had a special ops background and didn't have a grasp of the bigger long range issues because of that.

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 8:39:15 AM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

I've got nothing against the soldier types; I say give them their due, no more, no less. Must say I've always been put off by the amount of uncritical 'soldier worship' at this site. That said, I hasten to add that this seems to be a part of America's social fabric and it's probably no worse here on this site than in the general population.

Bob

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(in reply to CrappyDom)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 8:45:06 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with philosophy.  I certainly don't think that military service makes one eligible for derision, but nor do I think it automatically makes one a hero.

I didn't serve in the military.  But, I have been in tight and dangerous spots, when I used to lead backcountry and mountaineering trips, where someone could easily have died, and where people believed they wouldn't make it out alive.  My observation was that some people helped and protected others, most people just protected their own asses, and some panicked and broke down... does that make everyone a "hero" - just because they were present at a time of danger?  To me, trying times reveal character at least as much as build it, and one can only admire someone if you know what they've done, not just where they've been.


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When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/25/2006 9:06:50 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		Ain't that the truth.  And yet they all meekly follow Donald Rumsfeld these days...  Yes, Donald Rumsfeld, the well-known decorated war vet.  Ha!

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Same goes for geopolitical strategy, many ex-military people act as if they are the only ones who "get it".

(in reply to CrappyDom)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/26/2006 12:10:10 AM   
WhipTheHip


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
..i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............


It is easier to save lives for twenty years than risk your life for ten seconds.    Most people would rather save lives for twenty
years, then run headlong into a hail of bullets for ten seconds.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 8/26/2006 12:35:21 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not convinced that it's "easier," but the question was whether the nurse deserves respect for her contribution to society, not whether her job is hard or easy.

Besides, what percentage of veterans ever saw live combat?  Not many--well, not many before the Bush Administration, anyway.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 7:22:04 PM   
PsychosomaticGrl


Posts: 9
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Nowadays, most of them have seen combat. I am an Army wife and I can say from personal experience that you do not get paid that much, if you have a family.... forget being able to do anything but pay bills and survive. I dont think Vets are better people, but I believe their experriences help them better than other peoples might.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:05:34 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

...i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............


Yes, s/he is. And let's remember that this needn't be a zero-sum game. There isn't a fixed quantity of respect, forcing us to choose between respecting soldiers versus respecting, say, teachers. We can, and should, respect anyone who contributes to society.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:08:20 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

there is not one career that is more important than another. unfortunately, status is determined many times by income.

it takes us all to make the world go 'round...


Amen.

(in reply to surly)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:12:02 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The next thing I expect from the Government for my time and service is a Flag to drape over the coffin.


You don't get a pension?

(in reply to WyrdRich)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:21:30 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
..i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............


It is easier to save lives for twenty years than risk your life for ten seconds.    Most people would rather save lives for twenty
years, then run headlong into a hail of bullets for ten seconds.



Seems to me like we're compariing apples and oranges here. The nurse is showing stamina and dedication over a long haul. The warrior, perhaps aided by adrenaline, musters incredible courage and/or discipline to face that hail of bullets. Both are significant feats, though they're very different.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:32:27 PM   
Chaingang


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Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
The warrior, perhaps aided by adrenaline, musters incredible courage and/or discipline to face that hail of bullets.


That would mean a lot if it were happening on U.S. soil. As it tends to happen in foreign countries I wonder what your point is.

Is the U.S. military merely the cheapest mercenary force multinational corporations can buy with taxpayer monies? Um, that really means other peoples' money, right?




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(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 9:57:30 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
The warrior, perhaps aided by adrenaline, musters incredible courage and/or discipline to face that hail of bullets.


That would mean a lot if it were happening on U.S. soil. As it tends to happen in foreign countries


I would think facing a hail of bullets would take a fair amount of courage in any country.


quote:

I wonder what your point is.


My point was simply that the poster seemed to be setting up a false competition between two very different and demanding careers.


quote:

Is the U.S. military merely the cheapest mercenary force multinational corporations can buy with taxpayer monies? Um, that really means other peoples' money, right?


Here you've lost me.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 10:15:32 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		My point is that courage under some circumstances does not equal patriotism or any kind of meaningful service to one's countrymen.

I could give a fuck if people are courageous under fire. I have lived places in the U.S. where such was an ordinary fact of everyday life (East L.A., Highland Park and Oakland California). Where do I pick up my medal?

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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 10:43:32 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Real quick reply

People who have served society as a whole in any guise are no more and no less deserving of respect than any other individual, respect is earned on merit, not a right for putting in time (time for which the reward is often far greater than for a suit wearer)

Long answer

The company I work for employs mainly ex military/police personell, are any of them better than an average joe? Yes, because we cherry pick the best of the best. The vast majority of applicants fail our very first screening for any number of reasons, on the flip side I have never served in uniform, and many of our specialists have always worn suits rather than uniforms. On a personal level I would have to say the vast majority of ex servicemen I have met I have found to be personally distasteful, and in many cases the longer term of service the less I like the individual. I have come across more than a few that simply cannot cope without the structure and rigidity imposed by serving.

Side point

Starship Troopers does encourage people to serve in the military to gain the reward of suffrage (amongst other things), however as it is a military state that means ALL civil servants are in the armed forces, from the tax collector to the admiral of the fleet. It does not in its own right promote an aggressive or war mongering society.

Please ignore the movie, and if you have the DVD especially ignore the directors commentary, the poor guy got it all wrong. Design or accident I dont know.

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(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 10:45:56 PM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i wonder if a nurse, with 20 years experience saving lives every day is worthy of the same respect claimed for veterans by posters such as KenD and prdslave............

Or a paramedic who gets paid $9.99 an hour per diem working in the ghetto and having to work a truck with no AC wearing a kevlar bullet-resistant vest (a $500 employee purchase) covering their beat, only to be bled on, thrown up on, cursed at and slashed with knives and dirty needles?  (And they didn't have government-paid training either...)

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(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Soldiers....unique service or just another part of ... - 11/26/2006 11:20:38 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:


I could give a fuck if people are courageous under fire. I have lived places in the U.S. where such was an ordinary fact of everyday life (East L.A., Highland Park and Oakland California). Where do I pick up my medal?


LMAO!  - You can say that again. I mentioned this one time before....but I've worked in worst parts of both Richmond / Oakland. I had a hard time talking the ''brothers'' -- who were born and raised in those cities -- into venturing out for lunch to the burger stand after 10 pm . I think the good, law abiding citizens who live there deserve medals.

I agree with brother Chaingang..... I don't give the cops, the fireman, the Haliburton / KBR people, or the military people any special pats on the back for what they are doing. They signed up for this shity duty.....they can comply and live with themselves - period.

Anyone who enlists in the military as a private making a grand a month under the pretense that will be working /living amongst a bunch of sloppy, fat, outa-shape, Haliburton truck drivers making 10 -15 times the wages as the private, is a blithering fool.







- R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Chaingang)
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