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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/1/2005 10:19:37 PM

sub4hire

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If I did that what would I have to complain about? Other than the fact you were attacking me on the other question....hehe.

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 12:41:46 AM

topcat

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

Lawrence is VERY skilled, attentive, pushy and compassionate and, in my experience, very much adept at understanding that some want submission to be part of the dynamic, some do not and there are millions of shades of grey in between. He can work with it, especially if you're clear with him. Don't be fooled, he's also in it for his own personal satisfaction and he will make sure he gets it (while working within agreed upon boundaries).

As a sado-masochistic dominant woman with no interesting in submitting to anyone I whole heartedly give Lawrence my recommendation as a top. He's definitely worth paying tribute to if that is the form of energy exchange that you are considering.

oh and...uh...take pictures!

Madame,

that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Would you mind if I quote it? on a teeshirt? and a billboard? maybe bumperstickers? I might even have it tattoooed on my butt...

Bella- you give the BEST warm fuzzies, you humble me with your regard- thank you.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 12:47:26 AM

topcat

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quote:

This is scrictly *my* opinion and I'm not saying this is some sort of guidline that others should follow. I have a sneaking suspicion that Lawrence (Topcat) is a very skilled top. I'm not going to give anyone the illusion that I want to submit. . .*however* I do admit that I find the thought of him topping me exciting. I would *pay* (yes and in exchange money/currency/chedda/benjamins) for a session with him. (This is a hypothetical. . .we haven't talked about doing a session or anything.)
The reason being, I require *very* specific things in order to get into my headspace. I'm not willing to give anything else at this time (ass/pussy/house cleaning/foot licking) so the only thing that would make it equitable would be for me to offer money in exchange. He has a skill that I seek. . .and I believe that there should be some sort of recompense.

M.Jules-

I am honored by your kind consideration.

That is the second nicest thing anyone ever said about me<g>. As to the pics, you are going to get one of the first 2005 Topcat calenders, autographed!

I am glad I read all this after I got home- it will take hours for the swelling of my head to subside before my helmet will fit again! as for the other swelling, well...

Stay warm,
Thank you

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 5:01:50 AM

FangsNfeet

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first off I do agree with you that Merc and Beth rock. They are a cute couple and I enjoy chatting with them.

Secondly I enjoyed reading your profile. Best of look finding what you want as I'm sure there is someone out there for you.

Third, this conversation isn't going anywhere. It's just turning into a debate on gender roles when it comes to finances that society has laid out before us. I will now move on to other topics in the msg board.

Fourth and final, if it makes you feel better, I've had female subs msg me about there Financial success, nice homes, and such and invited me to live with them. Sounds nice but I've turned them all down for the same philosophical principals that Merc pointed out. Male or Female I don't want or need a sub/slave to support me.

Take care as I look forward in talking to you in other topics.

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 7:23:45 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

well a master paying is different. This is the Man paying verses what the women should and shouldn't do.

Fangs,

Before closing out the post, I wanted to clarify something.

The problem with weekend or holiday posting is that I never take the time to crystallize my comments. I think it's a function of having better things to play with on non-work days. At my office CollarMe re-focuses me on who I really am while playing the role of businessman.

I see no difference in paying for a meal and expecting sex to paying for a hooker. If you approach a relationship with quid pro quo expectation of cash for service or meal for service the subtle differences are unimportant. The dating process, whether vanilla or lifestyle, should be one of fact finding. It's an investment of time, and money, proportional to the value of the goal. Some investments don't pay-off. In my situation I was looking for one that would provide a lifetime of support. Comparable to similar lifetime financial providers, I knew that such commodities are rare.

When I said, if I couldn't afford a slave I wouldn't have one - that included the process of finding one. More so than ANY physical compatibility I sought emotional and mental attraction. From prior experience I found many who could and would play the role for a period of time; but long term could not keep up their charade. In short, I wanted consistency. I wanted someone who, even when I wasn't looking, was consistent. Not because they wanted what I could provide but it was who they were. I wanted anyone who met me to know they should expect the same thing.

It was well worth it to pay for a meal, a evening at our LA Club, Lair, or just a day out and about LA. I enjoyed the activity too. I paid with the thought of sharing it with someone who, if it worked out, I could reflect back on the memory in years to come. Did it matter that she didn't give me $50 for a $100 dinner? If you saw no value in the company - call in for a pizza, put on a X-rated movie, and go to town.

I used to insist on meeting anyone within a week. Often they would never show. Instead of getting disappointed or whining about it, I saw it as an adventure. I would always meet in different places - different bars/restaurants and if they didn't show, still had a good time. If I was upset at anything it was the waste of time. Their failure to show was a GOOD thing, because I wasted no more time on them.

As far as the woman's movement, woman's rights, or accepted society 'norms'; they will NEVER have any influence in my behavior. I enjoy watching beth discuss her 'status' with angry woman's libbers. They have a difficult time defending their hierocracy when tells them how much she thrives in her 'slave' life. They are frustrated when she uses their own arguments against them.

Using "woman's rights" as an excuse to be cheap is the same as using a safe word in lieu of experience. Like lying, when the time comes to represent an honest view of yourself the image is tainted. It's much easier to just represent who you are ALL the time, first meeting right until death. You may still go to hell for your actions, but at least you won't fall into the pit of hypocrites.

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 8:29:28 AM

proudsub

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quote:

That is the second nicest thing anyone ever said about me<g>. As to the pics, you are going to get one of the first 2005 Topcat calenders, autographed!

That just gave me an idea, i could make my own Topcat calendar using Print Shop.

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proudsub

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"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 8:51:03 AM

topcat

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Midear Proud-

I really am putting one together- I just need one more photo. I'll make it a printable web page, but you'll get an autographed copy, if you want.

Thanks for all the kind words over the past year!

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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Post #: 47

RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 8:57:40 AM

ModeratorThree

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Oh I so want one of those calanders!

/A very warm Mod3

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 9:02:48 AM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Madame,

that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Would you mind if I quote it? on a teeshirt? and a billboard? maybe bumperstickers? I might even have it tattoooed on my butt...

Quote away, my friend. Although I can think of MUCH better ways to have needles stuck in your butt!

Luv ya, sweets.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 9:44:10 AM

proudsub

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quote:

Midear Proud-

I really am putting one together- I just need one more photo. I'll make it a printable web page, but you'll get an autographed copy, if you want.

Thanks for all the kind words over the past year!

WOW i thought you were joking LOL. I can take it off the website, thanks. I sent your pics to Gloria, hated to see her miss out.

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 9:45:02 AM

Solaise

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The female sex worker was actually considered vital until the Victorian era. 'concubines' and prostitutes actively fuflilled a role in society that was considered necessary. Women were often married for politicl reasons, familial reasons, etc and were made pregnant whenever the womb was available for a new resident. The wife was simply not available to fulfill sexual needs much of the time.

The history of sex is pretty cool sh*t.

>>In a true Master/slave condition the slave in the relationship has freely given over ALL of their possessions to their Master. Partly because in their quest to please their Master they have given not only their body to be controled by them but all worldly possessions and income.
THIS also comes with the responsibility from the Master to protect and take care of the slave for however long the relationship lasts. Any good Master in my opinion would also insure the slaves care and wellbeing if the relationship ends tho in many cases if the slave has arrived with nothing they will leave with nothing. <<

Sounds to me like what you are saying is: If a woman takes control of her sub/slave financially, she is a prostitute. If a man does, he is a Master.

I find it interesting that you would send a sub out the door with "nothing" to match her state upon arrival. My question is, during that time of service has she worked? Has she produced? If so and if she returns to the state she initially arrived in "with nothin" what happened to all of that moulah?

No sub/slave of mine would be permitted a free ride. However, if the relationship ended after some time, and that slave had produced during that time - he would not be dumped on the street with nothing in his pocket but lint and a kick to his backside - REGARDLESS of whether he arrived with "nothing".

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 10:32:59 AM

REDsoon

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quote:

It's just so pathetic the way some tend to generalize. Some men pay ...... big deal ....some women pay too. So what.

quote:

No offense, but from your profile picture. . .you *might* want to pay a slave to come clean your house. . . .

LOLOLOL!!! GoddessJules

I am not generalizing above. Generalizing is when you say: "ALL men pay...". But I said "SOME pay ...".

Goddess Jules didn't like my picture and that's not the key for my research so I won't spend much time on her likes/dislikes. I know many want to keep living in the fantasy world and ignore who pays or who is more valuable while ignoring reality. But here, I only try to bring forth thoughts that are not explicitly stated. For example, in her profile, I only see dislikes against readers, which happens to be men on the most part. So again I sense negativity or discrimination against men. This helps me validate one or more of 5 the points above.

So which points above are the reason(s) for her negativity against men or why men pay? So please let research continues here objectively despite too much personal feelings….

Thanks

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 10:41:03 AM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: REDsoon

I am not generalizing above. Generalizing is when you say: "ALL men pay...". But I said "SOME pay ...".

Goddess Jules didn't like my picture and that's not the key for my research so I won't spend much time on her likes/dislikes. I know many want to keep living in the fantasy world and ignore who pays or who is more valuable while ignoring reality. But here, I only try to bring forth thoughts that are not explicitly stated. For example, in her profile, I only see dislikes against readers, which happens to be men on the most part. So again I sense negativity or discrimination against men. This helps me validate one or more of 5 the points above.

So which points above are the reason(s) for her negativity against men or why men pay? So please let research continues here objectively despite too much personal feelings….

I think the point that you're missing is that your statements are not objective and therefore your validation process is flawed. It negates your 'research.'

Perhaps you were just looking for people to agree with you? Maybe if you put your post in "Polls and Random Stupidity" as a poll that controls what input is allowed (for example your numbered, flawed observations) then you will get a better idea of what people THINK (as opposed to having objectively studied). A poll would give you the control you are trying to obtain and would get this often repeated but never validated drivel out of the main board. I suspect that the only people who will answer are other novices - but at least you'd get a bit of a control group.

Since I didn't get an answer my question I will repeat it here for those who think the way you do: You don't get out much, do you?

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 1/2/2005 10:43:13 AM >

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 10:44:29 AM

GoddessJules

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quote:

I know many want to keep living in the fantasy world and ignore who pays or who is more valuable while ignoring reality.

I think that the only person this train of though keeps up at night is you. I don't think too many people spend time thinking about. . .or *ignoring* who pays and who doesn't. To most of us. . .it is just a big non sequitur.

quote:

For example, in her profile, I only see dislikes against readers, which happens to be men on the most part.

I *do* include a list of disqualifiers (such as distance) so that it keeps wasted time to a minimum. If you want a slave from Fiji. . that is YOUR business. . .but my profile makes it clear that I'm not interested in that type of relationship and I'm sure many are glad that "disqualifiers" are in there so they don't waste time barking up the wrong tree.

quote:

So again I sense negativity or discrimination against men. This helps me validate one or more of 5 the points above.

No, this is you seeing what you want to see. And a big FAT example of someone seeing what they want to see is your original post.

quote:

So which points above are the reason(s) for her negativity against men or why men pay?

Wrong again Einstein. Several men here have corresponded to me on a more personal level and I'm sure they didn't feel as though I harbored "negativity" toward men. Do my slaves allow me control over their finances? To varying degrees yes. It's not about "pay or no pay" it's about *my* philosophy of dominance and submission and I won't allow anyone who submits to *me* to tell me "Oh, you can control this, this, and this. . .but not this." This ain't burger king and you can't have it your way is what I tell them.

If you have any further assumptions that you would like to make about me. . .just ask. I can even do a google search to find the nearest Merry Maids service in your area.

J

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 10:52:42 AM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solaise

No sub/slave of mine would be permitted a free ride. However, if the relationship ended after some time, and that slave had produced during that time - he would not be dumped on the street with nothing in his pocket but lint and a kick to his backside - REGARDLESS of whether he arrived with "nothing".

Beautifully put.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 10:59:30 AM

sarbonn

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quote:

I *do* include a list of disqualifiers (such as distance) so that it keeps wasted time to a minimum. If you want a slave from Fiji. . that is YOUR business. . .but my profile makes it clear that I'm not interested in that type of relationship and I'm sure many are glad that "disqualifiers" are in there so they don't waste time barking up the wrong tree.

I personally agree with this quite a bit. It saves me A LOT of time. It's the one reason I never actually contacted you, even though a lot of your philosophy is pretty cool, in my book. And I'm sure it saves you from having to deal with yet another submissive who believes in your philosophy but would not be capable of actually serving.

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 11:07:40 AM

Solaise

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quote:

So which points above are the reason(s) for her negativity against men or why men pay? So please let research continues here objectively despite too much personal feelings….

I don't see any reasearch going on here. You 'answer' your own question in your OP, and you are simply looking for agreement. I think as far as negativity goes, you should take a good long hard look at your own biases first.

< Message edited by Solaise -- 1/2/2005 11:09:48 AM >

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 11:42:20 AM

UtahGoddess

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I am not going to debate gender expectations of the masses. Nor am I going to defend or attack other people's preferences or limits. I am only going to state my personal expectations as they relate to finances.

A man that wants no relationship with me outside the Dungeon will pay for my time, my wardrobe, my space and my toys.......period.

A man in a personal relationship with me is not only expected to pay for dinners and other public entertainment....he is expected to drive me as well. If we go shopping, he picks up the tab and carries the packages.

I feel no need to justify myself or my wants. I state them clearly at the onset of a relationship. Those that disagree or take offense are free to continue their search elsewhere. Only those that agree to my rules move forward in a relationship with me.

I am free to ask for whatever I want in my relationships, just as others are free to define their expectations in their relationships. If you don't agree with what someone else wants .....move on and find someone that is better matched to you. It really is that simple.

Ms Sandi

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 12:58:49 PM

REDsoon

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quote:

I don't see any reasearch going on here. You 'answer' your own question in your OP, and you are simply looking for agreement. I think as far as negativity goes, you should take a good long hard look at your own biases first.

Please let us learn from each other. What are my biases? I am looking to know if most male subs are loved during the session, as the situation would be with female subs. I want to know if the FemDom is really attracted to a male submissive’s body more than their money. Does she FemDom always ask him to shave to become more like the FemSub body so that he is more attractive?

I agree that GoddessJules might want to filter out the people who live far away and this helps in her selection. So using her in my example above might not be helpful.

I could use a Polling mechanism as one member suggested but I already found many responses here very helpful and hopefully others would benefit from just reading here.

I just feel that men often pay for services whether they are subs or doms. I am not objective here but I just FEEL they pay more often or just more than FemDom or FemSub for a session.

My concern is LOVE and EQUALITY. I want LOVE without the enticing influence of money/tribute. For equality, I find a lot of hope from Jasmyn’s responses on page 1. She implies that in some situations women pay although they're physically more attractive. This means some FemDom could love a malesub in a similar way she loves a femsub. Regarding love, I feel many marriages were based on BDSM rather on the traditional beliefs that seem to always put women second and men as heads of the households.

So through love and equality no matter what role each is assuming, they become equal in value despite their unique roles during the session, which might extend a lifetime/ marriage. Jasmyn brings some hope to the equality point when women have to pay as well but what about the love part? It is not a matter who pays, it is not an issue about sex; however, this is an issue about understanding the FemDom view on a MaleSub when the MaleSub is not a "money slave". Just wondering is there any reason a FemDom coud ever prefer a MaleSub over FemSub for he is even when he has no professional skills in society. Traditinally, men bring a sense of security to wives. But what if he is also a submissive and could not bring this traditional sense of security, will they be valued to have LTR with FemDom? If not valued enough for a free session and they must pay their way in, then what are the reasons for that. Is one of the reasons from the 5 points mentioned above on page 1?

< Message edited by REDsoon -- 1/2/2005 1:56:02 PM >

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RE: Research: Why men pay, while women free? - 1/2/2005 1:22:34 PM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
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quote:

ORIGINAL: REDsoon

I could use a Polling mechanism as one member suggested but I already found many responses here very helpful and hopefully others would benefit from just reading here.

There is a Polling mechanism built in on this site. If you go out to "All Forums" and scroll down you will see a forum entitled "Polls and Other Other Random Stupidity." If you go in there you will see there is a "New Poll" button to create the poll you might wish. As with most polls it affords you the opportunity to control the issues.

Having said that, I've placed a poll regarding my question about experience regarding those who compare financial domination to prostitution. You seem to fit the pattern and I would love it if you chose to participate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: REDsoon

So I believe that this is promising in that sense. So through love and equality no matter what role each is assuming, they become equal despite their unique roles during the session, which might extend a lifetime. But it is very important to know why men are not if they are not financially productive. I always wonder is it one of the 5 reasons above or I am mistaken in all points. Jasmyn brings some hope to the equality point when women have to pay as well but what about the love part? It is not a matter who pays, it is an issue about sex, but this is an issue about the value of who we are in the eyes of FemDom when we are submissives except we are not "money slaves". Just wondering ...

Not everyone wants 'love' in their bdsm relationship. Not everyone wants equality. Some people yearn to give up control to someone who will think of them only as an investment; and still others want nothing more than to be an object (a chair, a table, an ashtray holder, etc.). There are as many kinds of satisfying relationships as there are people to define how to achieve them.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer a "deeper connection" with people that serve me. I find that the rewards are greater. I like to think that I get more of that BECAUSE I'm willing to see there are many ways to manifest that sort of relationship and it's the openness to their possibilities that enable that to happen. If I assumed that my understanding of things must be the only answer I'm confident that I would miss out on a lot.

Just because you or I can't imagine it doesn't mean it has no value for someone else.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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