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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:41:00 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I read somewhere that in Britain 80% of the cost of medical treatment someone accummulates in their life is in the last six weeks of their life. It is recognized here but something that is found uncomfortable to talk about that doctors have to make life and death decisions based on cost. Is it worth prolonging someones life when you know their is little chance of survival or do you use those resources on someone else who has a better chance of survival. Sooner or later this is going to have to be debated in public.


Yes it will, and you better know it's going to be a heated argument. How much is enough?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:43:12 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

LOL_ i had 2 MRIs.  i recall someone suggesting the entire population should have one. LOL


I've had a couple of them, too, pahunk. I'm extremely grateful my job offers full medical and dental. I've also had some dealings with "free" healthcare, years ago when I was unemployed. It was better than nothing, but it sucked.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:43:38 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

....God I can't wait till Bush gets the hell out of the White House!


popeye ; agreed 1000%

i hope the replacement is "presidential material."

300 million ppl, and the crop we have is the best?

GAG ME!

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:44:35 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Horrid idea, Entitlement mentality is something I don't think I'll ever understand.

I still think if you made Insurance deductable on taxes for everyone as individual purchases you'd solve two problems first the number of uninsured would drop, second th healthcare system would no longer answer to the companies that provide it but to the people using it. Thus the cost would also drop due to increased cometition as well as being more responsive to the actual end user.

I'll never buy into the idea that a doctor can be forced at the end of the governments guns to provide a service based on what the government thinks he should be paid. Want a good bet on why there is a shortage of doctors, take a look at what they make for income and then think about where common sense says to go to work.

I'll gladly provide for my own health insurance if it means I don't give one more cent to the politicians to waste on entitlements that keep spereading to more and more services. How long you figure till we get universal haircare? Free trips to the barber or stylist.

Bottom line any service provided at someone elses cost is beholding to the person paying not to the person recieving the service, that is a economic law.



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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:45:19 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		God I can't wait till Bush gets the hell out of the White House!

You and me both!

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Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:46:49 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

LOL_ i had 2 MRIs.  i recall someone suggesting the entire population should have one. LOL


I've had a couple of them, too, pahunk. I'm extremely grateful my job offers full medical and dental. I've also had some dealings with "free" healthcare, years ago when I was unemployed. It was better than nothing, but it sucked.


medicare/medicaid depends on your location. a dr can not "participate" in such. they simply state that they are not taking new patients.

Chicagoland is a terrible place for either. im glad to be outa there- ild never live there or any large city again.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:46:50 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


Yes it will, and you better know it's going to be a heated argument. How much is enough?


Hmm. That's why politicians keep trying to bury the subject and hope it won't arise until they are out of power. People have taken area health authorities to court for being denied certain treatments as too expensive and not increasing survival chances enough to make spending so much worthwhile and they have generally won but this means someone else loses. The politicians try to stay out of such cases but they are going to have to face up to the problem sooner or later.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:47:57 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Horrid idea, Entitlement mentality is something I don't think I'll ever understand.

I still think if you made Insurance deductable on taxes for everyone as individual purchases you'd solve two problems first the number of uninsured would drop, second th healthcare system would no longer answer to the companies that provide it but to the people using it. Thus the cost would also drop due to increased cometition as well as being more responsive to the actual end user.

I'll never buy into the idea that a doctor can be forced at the end of the governments guns to provide a service based on what the government thinks he should be paid. Want a good bet on why there is a shortage of doctors, take a look at what they make for income and then think about where common sense says to go to work.

I'll gladly provide for my own health insurance if it means I don't give one more cent to the politicians to waste on entitlements that keep spereading to more and more services. How long you figure till we get universal haircare? Free trips to the barber or stylist.

Bottom line any service provided at someone elses cost is beholding to the person paying not to the person recieving the service, that is a economic law.


LOL Archer. Me and you have about the same hairdos, except I shave mine, so we'd lose out on that, huh?
 
I wonder if your idea of deducting insurance from taxes would work; I tend to favor means testing though...

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:51:08 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		BTW the large employers alrerady have health plans for their employees so why go to a universal system and reduce the company's edge on other employers. The large companes use heathcare as an edge to hire the better employees away from employers who don't provide for it. So the idea of "When GM see's the light" is short sighted they already saw the light and provided for it for their employees. Granted some of that is union driven, but now it's pretty standard for even the lowest end jobs at Mc Donnalds to have health insurance offered, the cost of course of that insurance and it's limitations tend to be pretty bad. But there are few employers of any size todqythat don't have a health plan.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:51:31 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm You'd probably have more of your own money to keep under a universal healthcare system. Politicians don't make clinical choices, that is done by professionals.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:53:36 PM   
Owned1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

i heard that Ontario wont cover chiropracter visits.

ouch!

often they are the most appropriate treatment.


That is so true pahunk,  it was partially covered however it was one of the delisted things the govt did.  I do not agree with this one either.

Perfect we are not.

Owned

_____________________________

~~in His Chains i am free~~

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:55:54 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

BTW the large employers alrerady have health plans for their employees so why go to a universal system and reduce the company's edge on other employers. The large companes use heathcare as an edge to hire the better employees away from employers who don't provide for it. So the idea of "When GM see's the light" is short sighted they already saw the light and provided for it for their employees. Granted some of that is union driven, but now it's pretty standard for even the lowest end jobs at Mc Donnalds to have health insurance offered, the cost of course of that insurance and it's limitations tend to be pretty bad. But there are few employers of any size todqythat don't have a health plan.


But GM is suffering under the weight of all their pensions and healthcare, from what I've seen. If they can't do it, can nations, at least in the long run? Or is it a case of the haves crying "woe is me"?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:56:37 PM   
Owned1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Thanks for your answer, Owned (and everyone else too); you mention shortage of MDs and equipment, why do you think this is so?


The shortage of MDs is in some cases a false shortage.  It is a shortage in outreach outta the city areas.  This is because the MDs can choose where they practise and many do not want to work in a small town.  For many reasons.

In regard to equipment I believe it is due to the enourmous cost of some of the equipment and the cost to maintain it.  AS well things such as MRI's take time to build and set up.

There also needs to be the demand to purchase some of the equipment so it tends to be centered at one facility, this also leads to the long wait times for certain procedures.

Owned

_____________________________

~~in His Chains i am free~~

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:56:54 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Nope if it's going to be fair it has to be deductable for all, you would reduce the  number of uninsured dramaticly and the costs would drop thus creating a second wave of newly insured, those finally at the end of the line those actually making just enough to get by on would ned some help and I'm not against that but until you have stretched the private sector potential would you know who really needs the government dole and who could pay for their own with a little help.

If you can't go with a private system at all How about a system where you simply tax and set asside the money for basic healthcare in a private account that can only be accesed for medical. I want as little government involvement in the administration as possible.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 5:57:11 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		insurance tho has come to mean..... well... it has become a joke.  so called insurance, much of it, has so many if ands and buts- that it is costly as heck.

no matter how badly you hate Hillery, she did TRY to address this growing problem, years ago.

being the big biz has paid attys to lobby every nuance of life- the rules keep changing--

one day the war will be corp against corp.  say walmart vs big oil.

nothing fruiendly like the coke vs pepsi.

follow the money.....................................   the pharma industry.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:00:50 PM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

BTW the large employers alrerady have health plans for their employees so why go to a universal system and reduce the company's edge on other employers. The large companes use heathcare as an edge to hire the better employees away from employers who don't provide for it. So the idea of "When GM see's the light" is short sighted they already saw the light and provided for it for their employees. Granted some of that is union driven, but now it's pretty standard for even the lowest end jobs at Mc Donnalds to have health insurance offered, the cost of course of that insurance and it's limitations tend to be pretty bad. But there are few employers of any size todqythat don't have a health plan.


But GM is suffering under the weight of all their pensions and healthcare, from what I've seen. If they can't do it, can nations, at least in the long run? Or is it a case of the haves crying "woe is me"?


Thats a matter of poor planning not inability, the plan could have been fully funded had they chose to, and not sure about GM but in many cases the problem is that companies raided the fund for other things and never paid it back, criminal in my mind and deserving of jail time and seizure of assets.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:02:36 PM   
Owned1


Posts: 847
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I read somewhere that in Britain 80% of the cost of medical treatment someone accummulates in their life is in the last six weeks of their life. It is recognized here but something that is found uncomfortable to talk about that doctors have to make life and death decisions based on cost. Is it worth prolonging someones life when you know their is little chance of survival or do you use those resources on someone else who has a better chance of survival. Sooner or later this is going to have to be debated in public.


Yes it will, and you better know it's going to be a heated argument. How much is enough?


This is a huge ethical situation, something that cannot be decided on what is best for everyone.  Interestingly enough the MDs take an oath to preserve life at all costs while RNs role is to comfort and ease pain.  This leaves for a great debate even in critical care areas in hospitals between MDs and the RNs. 

First off before we even venture down this path every individual need to speak to their partner and make it clear to them what they want in case of a life threatening situation-how far they want life support to go.

Owned

_____________________________

~~in His Chains i am free~~

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:03:48 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Level,  Spain practices socialized medicine.  Health care is rationed as a result.  My uncle was turned down for his cancer treatment because he was too far along and could not be saved.  So his family and friends dug deep into their pockets and paid for private medical services....and he stayed with us for another three years.

My cousin went with her family to visit our relatives. While there, her baby became sick.  She went to a hospital where they waited for a terribly long time in a not-so-clean environment, along with a whole bunch of other people who did the same.  Her baby had a fever of 103 and was not treated for hours. 

The next day, the baby was still sick.  She and her husband broke out their Visa card and went to a private physician, who treated them promptly and wonderfully. 

Perhaps the system works for basic needs, but it seems to do nothing to "even out" the care amongst all citizenry.  If you have the money to pay for private care, then that is what you'll do.  I'm not saying we are identical to Spain, but personally I don't think we in this country do a great job with universal programs.  I am not convinced we would do any better with health care.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:04:53 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		Horrid idea, Entitlement mentality is something I don't think I'll ever understand.

I still think if you made Insurance deductable on taxes for everyone as individual purchases you'd solve two problems first the number of uninsured would drop, second th healthcare system would no longer answer to the companies that provide it but to the people using it. Thus the cost would also drop due to increased cometition as well as being more responsive to the actual end user.

I'll never buy into the idea that a doctor can be forced at the end of the governments guns to provide a service based on what the government thinks he should be paid. Want a good bet on why there is a shortage of doctors, take a look at what they make for income and then think about where common sense says to go to work.


Ah.. that is what Medicare is all about. n And the HMO's came to be because people were saying that they were getting ripped off by the doctors.  Then the HMO decided it would dtermine what was the best course of action for treatment for the patient at after the doctor's advisement.  We asked for it.. we got it.. bad healthcare.

I'll gladly provide for my own health insurance if it means I don't give one more cent to the politicians to waste on entitlements that keep spereading to more and more services. How long you figure till we get universal haircare? Free trips to the barber or stylist.

Bottom line any service provided at someone elses cost is beholding to the person paying not to the person recieving the service, that is a economic law.

Where this would benefit people are those  (like myself) that are considered uninsurable because of a pre-exisiting condition.  As long as my husband is working I am covered under his company's group plan.  Once retired.. the cost of that insurance is going to be like another house payment.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 8/26/2006 6:07:47 PM >

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:04:59 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LOL follow the money LOL the Phamaccology industry gets a sub standard profit margin in most cases 10- 15 % is pretty standard Funny how the really big industries tend to be the ones making 5-7% and getting hammerd for such outragious profits.

If you spend 2000 and make 200 you're making 10%
If you spend 200,000 and makee 20,000 you make 10%
If you spend 200 billion and make 20 billion it's still a 10% return on investment.

When is it that people will begin to get that?

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 40
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