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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:05:37 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I read somewhere that in Britain 80% of the cost of medical treatment someone accummulates in their life is in the last six weeks of their life. It is recognized here but something that is found uncomfortable to talk about that doctors have to make life and death decisions based on cost. Is it worth prolonging someones life when you know their is little chance of survival or do you use those resources on someone else who has a better chance of survival. Sooner or later this is going to have to be debated in public.

Yes it will, and you better know it's going to be a heated argument. How much is enough?

It's your parent in the emergency room. How much do YOU think is enough?

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:06:13 PM

meatcleaver

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I'm going to bed before I get too evangelical on this issue but having lived in several western European countries that have universal healthcare systems I find opposition to universal healthcare incomprehensible. It is true all systems have their own particular problems in some areas, that seems to go with the territory but its nice never having to worry about having to pay for healthcare should one have an accident or get a serious illness. One of the points of being a member of a nation to me is that we all take care of each other in times of need.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2006 6:07:18 PM >

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:08:07 PM

sharainks

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I don't know if universal health care is the answer. I do know what we have now is not working well. There is too little access for the vast majority of americans who know that expensive tests and treatment will leave them deeply in debt because their health insurance won't cover much.

Dental surgery for my unmentionable to remove impacted wisdom teeth cost $560 up front. That was the part they estimated that insurance would not cover. The day before the surgery they called and informed me that I would need to submit that on the day of the surgery or there would be no surgery. I'm not someone who doesn't pay my bills, and I'm sure some of this is a reaction to folks who don't. But...WTF? Is it all about the almighty dollar? Is there not to be care for those who can't submit it all up front?

Here in KS we have a program that provides health insurance for those under 18 at a reasonable cost or free to low income families. It works, they get the care they need and its paid for except for low co pays. Why not the same for adults? At one point a school district nearby had group insurance so high that people got a notice that their entire pay for 2 weeks was used for insurance and that they needed to submit X amount more. What a joke.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:11:03 PM

Archer

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But your pre existing condition does not entitle you to reach into my pocket to pay for it, which is exactly what a government run system does.
If I say NO i don't want to pay for her they come with guns and badges and take away my stuff.

I'm not saying throw those who cannot get insurance to the wolves I'm OK with taxing a little to subsidize those whoo are all but uninsurable, mostly I just want it to be done in as private a system as possible.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:13:49 PM

LTRsubNW

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The dumbest argument Republicans ever made, in all of politics was that universal healthcare "costs".

I was once a Rep...Rep....uhmmm....one of those guys. I've been in business for close to 30 years (I started my first company when I was only two small cells, later splitting in to four), all of my people have fully paid healthcare, full time or part time and I opted to start that back in the days when a decent group policy averaged about $80.00 a head.

Today it's in excess of $430.00 a head and while that's a cumbersome thing to pay for, it's no less a good investment today than it was then...and for one very selfish reason:

Sick, hurt or otherwise (due to infirmity or other) people don't tend to produce my products very effectively.

I want my employees to have the ability without concern for cost to get healthy and stay healthy, and smart business people agree with that concept. People without healthcare tend only to see a doctor when they're truly in need, often in desparation.

That's fixing a problem only when it runs into the thousands.

Staying healthy typically only costs a small co-pay.

National or universal healthcare would insure that more people stay healthy.

People that stay healthy (at nominal cost) don't tend to get incredibly sick (at gargantuan cost).

Universal healthcare is a cost effective way of insuring businesses that they can produce products at lower cost.

From a business mans vantage point, universal healthcare isn't a cost....it's a savings. From my standpoint, it's nothing more than selfish to want my people healthy.

(And as to any argument that universal healthcare might limit options, consider this; for those who currently can't afford healthcare, waiting 2 hours or more for a doctor is better than never seeing one at all. For those who can afford the best...have faith in the American desire for profit

If you can afford exceptional healthcare...beyond that which the government might provide in a national scheme...rest assured, some bright young doctor with a desire for a big house and a Maseratti is going to do everything in his or her power to insure that you recieve it...and in a very timely manner

)

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 8/26/2006 6:14:18 PM >

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:18:15 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I read somewhere that in Britain 80% of the cost of medical treatment someone accummulates in their life is in the last six weeks of their life. It is recognized here but something that is found uncomfortable to talk about that doctors have to make life and death decisions based on cost. Is it worth prolonging someones life when you know their is little chance of survival or do you use those resources on someone else who has a better chance of survival. Sooner or later this is going to have to be debated in public.

Yes it will, and you better know it's going to be a heated argument. How much is enough?

It's your parent in the emergency room. How much do YOU think is enough?

Good evening my friend . I believe there are times when you do have to say "enough"; my sister in law had to do just that a few months ago, with her mom. It was heartbreaking.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:20:48 PM

popeye1250

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There's no "shortage" of doctors or lawyers.
The govt could put Drs on a salary and "station" them in certain areas in a Universal system so they are where they need them.
As for Bush, the Illegal Aliens don't want to see him go because they know whoever gets in after him is going to do their actual "job" and start deporting them like should be happening now.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:23:43 PM

Archer

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All those things can be provided without getting the government involved though LTRsubNW.

Again I have to ask the basic Q if money deducted by an employer for insurance is counted as pre tax, why isn't money an individual who buys insurance directly out of pocket also pre tax (deductable)?

Why is individual insurance so expensive? because the businesses who provide insurance get reduced rates cause they provide ready made pools of people with no need to compete for their dollars, because they don't get to pick the head of HR gets to select for them who will carry their policy, less competition for the insurance company.

Get the insurance companies out of bed with the companies and in bed with the final consumers and you'll see cost reductions, as well as a more responsive system.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:26:19 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Good evening my friend . I believe there are times when you do have to say "enough"; my sister in law had to do just that a few months ago, with her mom. It was heartbreaking.

Good evening back atcha, Friend

But it was your sister-in-law who decided. What if the government had decided for her?

(Trust me, I do know the heartbreak of losing a parent)

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:30:08 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Good evening my friend . I believe there are times when you do have to say "enough"; my sister in law had to do just that a few months ago, with her mom. It was heartbreaking.

Good evening back atcha, Friend

But it was your sister-in-law who decided. What if the government had decided for her?

(Trust me, I do know the heartbreak of losing a parent)

I know you do. If I did not feel it was time, and the government said it was, I would not be happy. Man oh man, this life is hard sometimes. The answers seem so close at times, but someone is always on the bad end of the stick.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:31:56 PM

Archer

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Eventyually we will all lose our parents, if it's not one condition it'll be another. Lost step mother to cancer years ago moved back home to help Dad take care of her for the last few months drove her to chemo a few times, it sucks. But mortality is something we all will face at some point healthcare or not.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:35:20 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Eventyually we will all lose our parents, if it's not one condition it'll be another. Lost step mother to cancer years ago moved back home to help Dad take care of her for the last few months drove her to chemo a few times, it sucks. But mortality is something we all will face at some point healthcare or not.

Of course we do. I am simply saying I do not think it is up to the government to decide when we go.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:40:36 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Good evening my friend . I believe there are times when you do have to say "enough"; my sister in law had to do just that a few months ago, with her mom. It was heartbreaking.

Good evening back atcha, Friend

But it was your sister-in-law who decided. What if the government had decided for her?

(Trust me, I do know the heartbreak of losing a parent)

I know you do. If I did not feel it was time, and the government said it was, I would not be happy. Man oh man, this life is hard sometimes. The answers seem so close at times, but someone is always on the bad end of the stick.

I had quite a debate over this with an aunt, who is a cardiac nurse, and who believes the government, along with the medical industry, should decide when enough is enough for someone. Until I mentioned, "What if your daughter becomes too ill to cure?" Low blow? Maybe. But people tend to have all the answers for others...until something effects them directly. I ask the questions not necessarily as a debate, but to broaden thinking.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:40:56 PM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

All those things can be provided without getting the government involved though LTRsubNW.

You're absolutely correct Archer, but it would appear that this conversation (and the 40 some posts preceding yours and mine) would indicate that in fact that's not at all what's happening, wouldn't it?

Again I have to ask the basic Q if money deducted by an employer for insurance is counted as pre tax, why isn't money an individual who buys insurance directly out of pocket also pre tax (deductable)?

Actually, it is. But you have to be a little inventive. A simple business license will run you $25.00 in most cities (in some cases they're even free). Finding something you can do for a profit...even just once a year...for even one client...makes you a business.

And you would be its sole employee.

You would then provide your employee(s) tax deductible health care because you're a good businessman who cares for his (sole) employee(s).

(It's done all the time, in every city, in every state....every day).

Why is individual insurance so expensive?

The answer is very simple:

Medicare overhead (all those goverment folks who process the bills and determine someones care) runs approx. 2.75% of total system costs.

Private health care (insurance companies, like the one your employer probably subscribes to) overhead runs at in the neighborhood of 23%.

That's a national average. Your health care company may be more or less expensive in their overhead.

In my companies case, that means that almost $86.00 a month of every employees health care expenditure is going to pay for someone to tell them they can't have a particular procedure, or that they have to use a lesser pill, or have to return to work sooner than might be optimum for them.

Personally, even though I'm confident that nationalized health care would have its faults (likely a lot of them), I'd still rather see that excess $86.00 go towards insuring that more people had access to what they needed, when they needed it...(as opposed to going towards someones new Herman Miller office chair).

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 8/26/2006 6:51:01 PM >

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:42:02 PM

ownedgirlie

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You forgot the most expensive reason for healthcare - the legal industry.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:47:07 PM

Archer

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But it shouldn't be that complicated, and if the individual was buying the coverage the responsiveness to th end user would be increased. Take the need for the money to be taken out by an employer away and much of the problem solves itself.
While the insurance company may well tell an employer that this drug is just as effective and keep the business of that employer try that with the end user and see how fast the insurance pool moves to companies who don't.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:52:25 PM

Archer

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True the legal industry makes alot of the problems as well.
requireing tests that most docs say are not needed, requireing doctors to practice defensive medicine, holding insurance companies responsible for people's stupidity of getting themselves hurt, even when it's obviously their fault because that poor woman can't afford the healthcare she needs cause she was too stupid to wait for the radiator to cool before opening the cap.
The car manufacturers should make it impossible for the cap to be open until the water is at a cool 85 dgrees. LOL

The level of protection people seem to "NEED" today is laughable.

There really are some folks out there who I beleive are too stupid to live, LOL

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:55:50 PM

LTRsubNW

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You are correct; if more people were individually more personally involved with their healthcare choices, I would agree, there would be significantly lower health care costs on a group basis.

It's also true that if more people were individually and personally involved in their retirement investments (indeed, actually making some), fewer people would fear reaching 65.

However, human nature being what it is, knowing that most people, if given a choice to invest today such that they can relax comfortably in retirement tomorrow...will in fact opt for a new flat, wide screen TV.

And that's just the way it is.

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 8/26/2006 6:59:20 PM >

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:57:06 PM

ownedgirlie

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Yet we sue for everything, hence the need for protection. Mind you at times there is good reason to sue, but with so many ambulance chasers out there, what to do?

I don't mean to bring this off topic, but wanted to emphasize that I believe the biggest reason for medical costs is due to frivolous lawsuits.

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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 6:58:56 PM

cuddleheart50

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http://www.pnhp.org/

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