RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 12:57:08 AM)

I don't think I am the only one that got the message from you that the race riots were because of ignorance, bigotry, racism and social injustice or are they just too much beer on saturday night or bored youth spoiling for a fight? Though terrorism is in a different league to this and that does appear to come from agitation from the muslim community itself and many of the terrorists and accused terrorists are relatively affluent. I don't know how you can suggest this is all an ordinary saturday night high jinx, if that is what you are saying. I no longer know what you are saying because you change according to the needs of your argument.



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 1:01:08 AM)

Northern Gent says
quote...There is not one piece of evidence on this board to support the claim that multi-culturalism is the disaster as is being claimed here. ..endquote

So what did I offer on post 163. No anecdote there....you loveable person.
What about schools where say 50 different languages are spoken and remedial measures HAVE to be taken to overcome this.

Since you appear to be a class warrior let me say this..... White Working class/Middle class/Upper middle class types do not socialise at all, only in stupid brain dead sitcoms.

The upper middle classes have certainly brainwashed you and you are too loveable to know it.   he he he he he

If, but probably when, India and Pakistan engage in another War, Kashmir being a likely cause, then, you loveable rascal, prepare for the conflict to spill over in the UK. Tell me NG, where in the North are the main Hindi/ Muslim centres of population, because thats the place to be if you want to see the fun and games.

I hope you realise that loveable is in code !



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 2:23:03 AM)

Sorry Yanks to be so Brit. centred but maybe the description of the problems now being experienced in the UK,  as a consequence of immigration, strike a chord with you.

A point Northern Gent has not mentioned is the fact the many Asian immigrants, Hindu in particular, are very intelligent and street wise in a way that the average "blinged up" Afro hip hopper with his HO on his arm simply never would appreciate.
This in itself will lead to further  problems because the consequence is that they will, in fact already have, move into the political arena, and start to exert influence that way. Ultimately as the numbers grow "democracy" will yield another disastrous, community dividing result

One outcome already experienced is corruption in two wards in Birmingham, both with Muslim involvement I believe, that led to the election result being declared void,. while many other results in Asian dominated constituencies are being treated with suspicion. In other words they have imported their home grown customs into the UK. Positive benefit for us says NG. he he he he. I am waiting for the first Muslim , public, animal sacrifice. Slit the sheeps throat in the approved manner and may the blessing of the big A be on you. I believe the first known Hindu public cremation occured about two weeks ago. Good for us says NG.

Just a local Brit reference here...never heard a peep out of those great labour freedom fighters and multi culturalist crusaders Claire Short and Roy Hattersley did we.
Just think NG if the two Trevors, Macdonald and Phillips applied their expertise to their home land how rich those places would be. Instead one reads the news on TV for a ludicrous salary and the other tells us what we are doing wrong, also for a ludicrous salary.



NorthernGent -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 2:48:54 AM)

There is no evidence being put up to support the claim multi-culturalism is a disaster. I don't pretend to know everything but what I did learn studying history at university is that a theory/opinion needs to be based on empirical evidence to carry any weight.

If someone comes up with a trend running through society to support this wild claim then I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say fair enough.

Until this time comes it is merely anecdotes and personal views i.e. nothing remotely substantial enough to support such strong opinions.

It is waste of time coming out with childish comments like "he's a social worker" - completely pointless if this is all you have to offer. You will be much better served supporting your arguments with facts rather than petty insults.

Regards



meatcleaver -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 2:58:20 AM)

All you offer is opinions and totally disregard facts such as Islamic terrorism.

Go to the east End of London, you will find an apartheid going on in schools. Walk round many east London areas and you will find a cultural apartheid. People don't mix. Islam and freedom of speach are incompatible because a muslim can't renounce Islam even if they wanted to. The Rushdie book burning showed that when push comes to shove, many muslims can't accept freedom of speach. Freedom of speach is a fundemental value in western society and it is being eroded in the name of multi-culturalism.



NorthernGent -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 3:05:44 AM)

1) Let me get this straight before answering - are you saying that Islamic terrorism is the evidence to support the claim that multi-culturalism is a disaster? A simple yes or no will do (if it is a no then why bring it up?).

2) "Go to the east end of London........"- Factual trends, please.

Regards



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 3:22:59 AM)

NG I have hit you with so many facts that the top of your head has changed shape. You just keep repeating your mantra
Nobody is giving my any facts.

It seems to me you cant recognise a fact  when it is rammed down your throat. Oh loveable one !
Are you dyslexic ? 



meatcleaver -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 3:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) Let me get this straight before answering - are you saying that Islamic terrorism is the evidence to support the claim that multi-culturalism is a disaster? A simple yes or no will do (if it is a no then why bring it up?).

2) "Go to the east end of London........"- Factual trends, please.

Regards


FACT- My daughter used to go to a school that was 98% Asian. The school around the corner had precisely 0% Asians and was a mix of white and black. Take a tour through Newham and you will find this model repeated.

As for facts, you always ask for facts when you are losing an argument. What do you call facts, official statistics? I spent ten years in teh Probation Service watching official statistics being manipulated for political and self interested reasons.

Seek has offered you facts and you have ignored them.



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 5:48:14 AM)

I love how this thread was about immigration problems in the U.S. but turned into immigration problems in the U.K. Maybe those who have a problem with immigration in the U.S. has learned to shut the hell up already. Maybe they've learned that they can't change/will never change whats been happening since before the inception of the U.S. in western north America.



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 5:49:32 AM)

Lady Ellen: you appear to believe that given the right policy initiatives from central/local government these problems can be sorted out. I am as sure as I can be that that is not true. I actually recognise that the multi cultural approach was well intentioned, but in my opinion futile, as it has turned out to be. What is so dishonest to the point of wickedness is that when it became apparent that trouble was brewing, say when the race riots occurred, first one in Bristol, the authorities battened down the hatches, bent over backwards to accomodate the newcomers and CENSORED debate.

Now nothing can be done to hide the problems, what now? Short of coercion, which would be even more counter productive than multi culturalism, what? Nothing at all. It is too late. That is why I think the future is so bleak. The next major recession will see if I am right.
As I said before at the moment Working Class whites suffer the most, the schools and housing in particular though immigrants working in the NHS do help a lot. I think the Brits as a whole have been extremely tolerant but for how much longer I do not know. If they put up with the conditions that existed after the 1st World War they will put up with anything.

Incidently noone has mentioned disease which has been re introduced  TB and increased  HIV 

What a larf.



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 5:54:20 AM)

Very fair point Mr D but the clever buggers in the UK had, in the 1950's, the chance to look at the USA and see how diversity REALLY worked, but no they knew best, they are the clever buggers after all.

As an example of diversity problems, the USA was brought close to severe civil disobedience over the school bussing programme designed to provide a better racial mix in your school system. A few years later I fell off my chair laughing when I heard a black community spokesperson claiming that separate education would be better for blacks.
Needless to say, exactly the same claim has been made here in the UK.

What a larf.



LotusSong -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 6:19:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

Behovering aside, people cannot instantly learn another language.  i don't know whether You've ever tried but i have a real hard time speaking; though i can usually learn to read & write easily enough.  In the case of my own g'parents, they never lost their scottish brogue and were virtually indeciferable by anyone who hadn't emigrated from scotland, so they remained close to such a community.  i think it's always been that way, esp for the first generation.  And frankly i think there's a touch of the "ugly American" in us that expects everyone, everywhere, to learn a smattering of english so we can get around.
 
pinkee
   I'll keep this simple.  If I don't know how to get around on your turf.. I will  educate myself a bit.  Should I not have the time or resources.. then I'll just stay out of your face until I do.

American's bend over backward WAY too much.  This is the grassroots American.  Not the Bush-ites.  But let'snot go there right now.. because that will lead into the war talk and politics.  I'm talking JQ Public here.

We are not all fat and lazy.  Most of us are borderline working-poor being one paycheck away from forclosure.  We don't hire people to do our dirty work because "we are lazy".  I hire someone to do my yard because neither my husband or I are fit enough to do it.  I have MS.. he has developed severe allergies that basically shut down his lungs when he mowed and trimmed the yard. 

I went through 3 crews of people until I found one I could actually communicate to.

I scrub my own toilets and do my own housework. I actually cook!



LadyEllen -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 6:20:05 AM)

I join seeks in apologising to our US friends that we Brits are taking over this thread - I do think though that its relevant to the situation in the US that you know how it has turned out here by taking a multi-cultural rather than integrationist stance.

NG, can you please offer some evidence of how multi-culturalism has proven to be a major social and economic success, if you claim that it is not a disaster? (bearing in mind that the head of the CRE, which is responsible for ensuring racial equality, says it has not worked?). I remain to be convinced how we can have a functioning nation with so many mutually exclusive and even antaganostic groups who refuse to integrate and remain loyal to their lands of origin rather than to the UK, but would like to share that happy vision.

The problem with multi-culturalism in my view is not so much that we have the occasional riot, which as you have pointed out is a recurrent theme in British life, whoever the antagonists might be or claim to represent. The problem is the total dislocation of society which is caused by encouraging people to be Indian (or whatever) first, and British second if at all, and the associated economic dislocation caused by ghettoisation into effectively independent communities.

What if instead, we had a country where the only language assistance given was in teaching English, (or Welsh or Gaelic as applicable)? Where it was simply not permitted for one group to take over an entire area of a town or city (natives included)? What if we did produce a single British identity out of the mass of separate identities currently found, and ensure that everyone could and did sign up to that identity first? This might be social engineering, but then so is multi-culturalism. If we could produce such a unified nation, regardless of secondary identities, surely we could then have a situation where there was far less resentment between people than we have now? For me for instance, I would be British first, English and Asatru second - I see no reason whatever why anyone else of whatever ethnic, religious or cultural background could not claim likewise. 

We also have to remove the false notion that seems often to rear its head in threads like this, that the only right way to be is white Christian. Immigration from all over the world has made the UK a much better place to live than it once was, and diversity of race, culture, religion etc is not a problem. The problem is the "them and us" mentality that pervades our country as a result of allowing and even encouraging "them" to remain them, rather than becoming "us".

I'm also a little confused about your location, and maybe I remember wrongly, but I'm sure I recall that you said you were in the Co Durham / Northumberland area in a thread some time ago, wherein the comparative merits of northeast vs northwest England were being discussed as a side issue. If you live in Manchester I apologise.
E



LotusSong -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 6:27:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I join seeks in apologising to our US friends that we Brits are taking over this thread - I do think though that its relevant to the situation in the US that you know how it has turned out here by taking a multi-cultural rather than integrationist stance.



No apologies needed here.  I find comfort  in knowing there are others who understand.  I actually had no idea of what was going on across the pond in this regard.



LadyEllen -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 6:46:48 AM)

seeks - I personally dont think its helpful to the debate or solution to make this an issue about which group suffers most or has to put up with this or that. These people are here now and must be included in the debate and the solution. Short of forcibly transporting people of all groups all over the country until we have (for example) the Islamic County of Bedfordshire or the Afro-Caribbean County of Warwickshire, we must all live mixed together as one, somehow.

The force for the one nation solution must involve government, although as you say this will not be sufficient and may well result in more resentment in the beginning. In the end, it must involve the people of all groups and each person individually to see that cooperation is much better than confrontation. I will say that the experience of Yugoslavia, Rwanda/Burundi, N Ireland and sometime soon the Baltic states does not bode well for integration, but it really is the only realistic and humane way forward.

I will also agree with the point I took to be implied that debate in the UK on matters such as immigration, race relations and cultural diversity is all too often shut down by accusations of racism towards anyone who does not say the "right" things. This is why I think it is vital to disentangle any notion of racism from this debate, because it is a debate long overdue in this country, and things are only going to get worse if we do not solve this in our generation.

As I have said before, immigration is not a problem. Even though most of us natives want to get out of here as quickly as possible, the UK is still a good place to come in economic and social terms for people from all over the world, and these newcomers in general are excellent for our country. But we cannot maintain a nation in this country, when all too many people (whites included), will not accept that we must be a single nation in one way or another, not a host of conflicting groups.

Having said that though, we do now need to look at immigration closely. We are a small island, with limited resources in terms of land, water, power etc - it is not that immigration per se is a bad thing, but we cannot prevent resentment from arising if a Somali family (for instance) is able to acquire housing whilst school leavers of all generations are not. I also do not follow the argument that we need newcomers from eastern Europe to do jobs which natives will not do - for goodness' sake, we have millions of unemployed here - if they dont want to pick fruit etc, then we should make them do so if only for their benefits payments before importing hundreds of thousands of educated people from Poland to do it and rob an emerging nation of its best and brightest to do work which requires no education to perform.

In short, we do have to debate all this sensibly and now, and sort out the UK before it is too late.
E



meatcleaver -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 6:59:29 AM)

The fact that NG can't argue with is that people who integrate, whatever their race, are more successful than people that don't. That not only holds true in Britain, it holds true here in Holland to and in France. Though France has had a policy of integration that hasn't worked but that is largely due to people wanting to hold onto their original identity which to the French is fine but don't expected to be treated as French if you're refusing to be French.



LadyEllen -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 7:08:48 AM)

MC - absolutely right.

The problem in the UK is that we allow and even encourage people to remain separate - and we have a social benefits system which means its not necessary to integrate; no work in the ghetto? Simple - claim unemployment benefit and housing benefit and all the rest, and its better than working. There is no motivation to go out and mix.

I work in international transport and trade - one would think that as such I would come into daily contact with ethnic minorities busily importing from India (for instance) and requiring our services, or at least with ethnic minority employees of other freight companies whose cultural and language knowledge was essential to their employers. But no. What I find is that such Indian importers and traders will use only Indian owned freight companies, and as to the latter point that freight companies operating Indian services are bereft of any employee with roots in the relevant language or culture. Its really bizarre and sad in a way that even in international trade, there seems to be so little mixing and a definite preference to stick with one's own.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 9:34:20 AM)

Lady Ellen says
quote: Its really bizarre and sad in a way that even in international trade, there seems to be so little mixing and a definite preference to stick with one's own. endquote

Once again Lady E you recognise the problem, meet it in your everyday world but REFUSE to accept that it is insoluble. In your own way you are almost as much of a dreamer as NG.

Though you tell me not to apportion blame, dont forget that the British education system is segregated along class lines that ensures that those at the top, ie the policy makers have very little idea of what is occuring at the bottom. What they are exposed to is reports that have been twisted this way and that to protect those in between. An earlier poster mentioned this. In my area, which is not too far from you, the police drive around in vans that have written on the side.....

Crime is coming down.
Then a news report is broadcast showing that violent crime is up 16% year on year.

Was it not Marie Antoinette who said of the starving masses...let them eat cake...what happened to her !
Trevor Philips said let them emigrate to the UK there's plenty of lovely taxpayers lolly to go around.... and we all lived in peace and harmony for ever more.
A fairy story in two lines. he he he 



LadyEllen -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 9:59:16 AM)

seeks - the scenario you seem to see is sadly not insoluble. The future, if taken to the logical conclusion of your viewpoint has to be some sort of civil war whereby each group slugs it out to the detriment of all, some sort of partitioning of the country or forced repatriation to wherever(?). None of these are positive solutions if your view on all this is true (which I doubt), but sure as anything they are solutions that could result if we dont come up with something positive. I'd rather have dreams than nightmares.

Personally though, I dont think the situation is anything as bad as you seem to. Its not like we are about to have a civil war here, and we dont need segregation (which is the root of the problem in the first place) and repatriation is plain daft as many immigrant communities are now into their 3rd or 4th generation here. We need something to unify the groups inhabiting our country so that we have an integrated, functioning, social and economic nation - language is a key starter point for this, and after that an accomodation for all, agreed by all, that says in brief that we are all British first, and whatever else second.

This thread seems to be going down a well trodden path here; those who think nothing can be / ought to be done, and those who think something can be / ought to be done. (Not to mention those who think there is no issue in the first place).

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/5/2006 10:15:19 AM)

Bleak doesn't mean catastrophic Lady E, I expect we will muddle through, but a major recession FORCING a cut back in public expenditure, remember it happened in about 75/76, will cause serious conseqences.

I certainly never mentioned forcing anybody to do anything. You did that !

Just editing to say we will muddle through with a society that is more segregated, more crime ridden, more  housing education problems, more taxation required and with the latent potential for a violent explosion to occur at any time.
It has already happened so I am not really predicting much



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