|
LadyEllen -> RE: How ready are you for Spanish? (9/4/2006 1:57:33 PM)
|
Right - first time I've ever used the "quote" button, so hopefully this will work!
quote:
1) Why should a newcomer have to adjust to you and your country and what do you mean by adjust? What exactly would you do in Japan that others haven't done here?
What I mean by adjust, is several fold; I would have to learn the language to a level of proficiency that allowed me to function in my new country, I would have to accept that what was permissible in the UK might not be permissible in Japan, I would have to live and behave within parameters that were acceptable to my new country and its citizens.
2) Can you please explain what is so disastrous about multi-cutural Britain? We have always had ghettos in this country (working-class white ghettos all over Britian) - ghettos are not confined to skin colour (my hope is that you are not associating ghettos with skin colour because the term ghetto has negative connotations and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). We have so many different cultures here, different attitudes, different food, different religions, different music, different options - difference is not to be feared.
True, we have always had class based neighbourhoods, and we still do. I am not using the word ghetto in any derogatory way, merely as a word to describe a neighbourhood whose population is socially/culturally/ethnically homogenous. Difference is not to be feared, I agree, but what is different now compared to say forty/fifty years ago is that whilst back then the class based ghettos existed, the classes who dwelt in their ghettos did mix and did function as a single society by way of common British culture. The present ghettos are largely self contained islands, and whilst this is fine and dandy in that each ghetto functions unto itself, this situation is a disaster in terms of the nation state in that certain communities are only part of the UK by reason of geographical location. The predominant language is not English, the law is rarely observed or applied, loyalties lie elsewhere than with the UK and its institutions etc. I am not saying that the cultures of these ghettos are wrong, merely that these islands do not make for a coherent nation. It is nothing to do with skin colour either by the way.
3) English have no culture? Pub culture, bands, sport - the bedrock of English culture for centuries - do you see this being eroded? I don't. Are you saying you no longer involve yourself in English pursuits? Do you know anyone who suddenly considers themselves not English simply because immigrants come here?
I really have no idea what point you are making here, as you seem to have missed my point entirely. Of course English culture survives, but the problem is that whilst we are told what other cultures are about (including Scottish, Irish, Welsh etc) and told to respect and uphold them by way of law and education, no such definition and protection is afforded to English culture. Instead, we are constantly reminded by all and sundry what a bunch of criminal pigs we are and how ashamed we should be of our past actions - past actions that were perpetrated by the monarchy and aristocracy who were variously Normans/Germans at that. Just one example might suffice perhaps though in respect of the question you asked - not too many years ago, the local authorities here banned Christmas and any public Christian expression of that festival (not a problem for me in that its one of my heathen festivals), because it might offend certain cultural groups. Christmas was rebranded "Winterval" and all were invited to participate. The fiasco continued until the Hindus, Muslims et al pointed out how ridiculous and unwanted such suppression of English culture was.
4) No one has ever told me I must celebrate multi-cultural values. No one. Who is forcing this upon you?
Perhaps living where you do in the far north of England, you experience less of this. Down here in the Midlands, we get a lot of it, probably because we have a large proportion of cultural groups within our population. I have nothing against Divali, or Ramadan or the Carnival etc, its all OK and I dont mind it at all, but its a fact that we have an education system and culture here which says we must think it OK and not mind it at all.
5) Of course we have a shared indentity. We're a tolerant people who largely just want to get on with our lives, have a beer down the pub and make the best of things we can. Can you give me an example of a country that you consider not to be multi-cultural and believe this country to have a stonger sense of identity than British people? Part of the reason why we don't seem to have a stroing identity is because we're not the sort of people who run around the streets waving flags like complete dim-wits. As said, by and large, we're tolerant and have a live and let live attitude - it's not our style to bang on about Britishness and make a big deal of it - much more important things in life.
My goodness. In general, yes of course we all want to get on with our lives. However I have yet to see my Muslim neighbour (the Mosque is at the end of the street BTW) in the pub drinking a beer, and if I asked him (if he spoke English) which team he supported in the recent cricket test match (England vs Pakistan) I'm pretty sure England would not have been his choice.
As long as things dont go down the multi-cultural path, then countries like the US, Canada and Australia show us a better model - all citizens are free to be and do as they please under the law, but all citizens share a common identity and loyalty.
I dont see what tolerance has to do with any of this. I am not seeking to make a racist point or saying that we should all be the same, and if you read that into what I wrote then perhaps I should have made that clearer. Difference is fine and good and natural - what is not fine and good and natural is to try to maintain a nation state in which the people are clustered into exclusive groups which rarely if ever, function as one.
By the way, if waving my English flag makes me a dim wit, then so be it.
6) lol at the Queen providing a unifying force. She is part of an establishment that has shat all over the British working class since the year dot. If that's unifying you can keep it.
Nevertheless, until quite recently the monarchy did provide a unifying force, and like it or not it is to the Queen that allegiance is owed by all British citizens.
7) Multi-culturalism has not led to frustration and jealousy. It is the narrow-minded bigotry and lack of education that has led to these things.
Sorry, but I'm afraid it has. We have had plenty of education about those cultures to be found in the UK today and no child leaves school without having worked through months of religious education classes in which every religion and its associated culture is examined in detail. Such education and awareness means that the anger, fear, frustration and hatred that is present just below the surface (on all sides), is not down to prejudice or bigotry. These negative feelings between communities are instead the result of allowing and indeed engineering the current situation to have come into being. Neither is it the case that it is whites alone who have a problem - Afro Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Indian Hindus and Sikhs, all suspect and detest one another. The problem is that by ghettoisation, anything done for a group in one ghetto becomes a perceived slight against another group in another ghetto. Thus we have notions running at equal strength in each community that some other community or even all other communities are being favoured over them - this is where the jealousy, frustration, suspicion, fear and hatred come from.
8) Come on LadyEllen, surely you can rise above this dim-witted view of difference? quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Again, I reiterate that my post was not intended to be in any way some claim to native English primacy. It was intended only to point out to our US friends the dire situation in which the UK now finds itself as a result of a policy of multi-culturalism. Estring seemed to get this. I like having ethnic and cultural minorities here - their presence and the laws enacted to ensure their equality of expression have made and continue to make it possible for me to be heathen without being arrested under the Sunday Observance Act. I also run a company, and it would be no problem for me to employ anyone - I go purely for experience, qualification and talent - but its no good for me or my company if my potential employee speaks little English!
|
|
|
|
