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RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 12:55:28 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

I don't disagree with your overall meaning I think, but let's tidy up some other stuff...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
...and if the realtor is going to be YOUR agent as a buyer, it's neither correct--nor satisfactory as a defense against a complaint--that "they represent the seller."

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with the realtor's actual motives and how this plays out in the real world. In the real world they would never defend the action that way and instead simply claim ignorance of issues concerning the property. A civil case would have to show actual knowledge of the relevant facts and have evidence to back up such a claim. Evidence concerning what someone knew and when they knew it is going to be very hard to prove absent some kind of substantive documentation - and if such existed the OP might not be in her predicament.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
If this realtor admitted that she withheld information because she was afraid that the buyer would back out of a deal, she SHOULD lose her license and COULD also face legal sanctions.

That's one big *IF*, right? You are basically saying: "if the realtor confessed she screwed you to make a sale and reap a profit."

Yeah, that's not going to happen...

Well, I am not of the mind to tell the esquire his business, apparently he can peruse the WestLaw for himself, but what he said absolutely stands, and even if she didn't tell the party that she screwed them, one would and could hire your average everyday esquire that might think upon the words 'due diligence', but even if ohio was absent the godless and brimmed with the lawless, I think UCC would apply.

With small (in my mind anyway) differences real prop law seems about the same in the outlook in all states, I am not a lawyer, but have had to have some familiarity with this in order to auction real estate.

The other guy probably has at least slept with a lawyer, but absent his dropping the dime, I will stand mute upon his situation other than to say..........I'd LISTEN to that fuckin' guy..........He so rarely bullshits, and so rarely will to this degree specifically wax upon a subject, that I am going to bet he aint bullshitting here.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 61

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 12:56:58 PM

eruditegirl1

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/9/2006
From: Nevada
Status: offline

Once again...I will risk breaking a nail to type this for you Kenin....I understand that we all learn at different levels...some are audio...some are visual and some well they just never get it....case in point....let me use a step by step appraoch....if you click the link...that you so kindly put in a post for us....it takes you to the page...then click on under section 2 part B....read this under Buyers Agent.....

To the Buyer:
(a)   A fiduciary duty of utmost care, integrity, honesty, and loyalty in dealings with the Buyer.
To the Buyer and the Seller:
(a)   Diligent exercise of reasonable skill and care in performance of the agent’s duties.
(b)   A duty of honest and fair dealing and good faith.
(c)   A duty to disclose all facts known to the agent materially affecting the value or desirability of the property that are not known to, or within the diligent attention and observation of, the parties. An agent is not obligated to reveal to either party any confidential information obtained from the other party which does not involve the affirmative duties set forth above.

Exactly what part of the above pasted and or the definition of Fiduciary duty is that you are having trouble comprehending....I could draw a diagram if that helps...or perhaps download it onto an audio tape....which ever is easiest for you to understand....if you have anymore questions.....please feel free to let me know....

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 62

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:01:17 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"How do you explain merry old England permitting the Muslims to riot and call for the death of all Jews? Shouldn't they all have been imprisoned based upon your representation of the UK?"

thank you so much for reminding me.........

when that happened there was an outcry based exactly on the point you made. There have been a number of arrests but i'm not sure if there've been convictions. The main point here is that it WAS illegal, actionable, a socially unacceptable behaviour. The Islamic council came out and condemned it. Quite frankly it caused a major fuss. Which reinforces the idea that it was a bad idea.
By not making a fuss, by allowing such inflammatory remarks, the US system fails to confront racism when its at its least dangerous and most amenable to change.

philosophy,
Therein is the difference in our countries, and perhaps the two of us. Although I am philosophically against the position of the Muslims, or the illegal immigrants, or the US neo-Nazi's; I stand behind their freedom to speak what's on their mind. It's a difficult position, but any other would be hypocritical.

My reading to date indicated that only those fighting and throwing objects were arrested, as they would be in the US. I didn't find any reference to any peaceful protester espousing hatred but not physically combative being arrested. If you have such a reference no need to post the link, I'll take you at your word.

I've seen debate on the BBC, from both radical ends of the spectrum, spewing hatred and calling for the death of of the other side. How are they not subject to arrest? Is their a different standard for the media? Wouldn't they be subject to arrest for inciting a riot? Same question pertaining to the "arts", is "art", performance or visual, subject to a different scrutiny?

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 63

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:12:20 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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I'd say this clause is the clincher. But you're wasting your breath. This goes under the category of pearls before swine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eruditegirl1

(c) A duty to disclose all facts known to the agent materially affecting the value or desirability of the property that are not known to, or within the diligent attention and observation of, the parties.

(in reply to eruditegirl1)

Post #: 64

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:13:01 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

According to the OP, the realtor has said this already.

And Kenin: Read this before you spout any more uninformed nonsense about realtors' responsibilities. The text that you linked has to do with SELLERS' disclosures in the state of California. It has nothing to do with REALTORS' responsibilities--aside from the fact that it's from the wrong state. This is from Ohio, the OP's home state:

http://www.realestatebrokersguide.com/Brokerage_Cleveland.html

Look up the concept of "fiduciary duty" if you are not familiar with it.

Can you do us all a favor next time and cite actual Law? That would be a good start. Oh, and.. Umm... About the disclosure about the neighbors.. Would you care to point it out where it says that is an obligation under the Law in your link? I mean, SPECIFIC citation. "You must disclose all information about the neighbors". Needs, specifications and affordibility does not cover this concept, unless you can cite SPECIFIC statutes to the contrary. I will eagerly await these.

I thought so.

Number two. Fiduciary duty. Yeah. So what? Prove intent. Again, you can not. Fiduciary duty has bugger all to do with this. PROVE that the real estate agent knew that there were skinheads going around harassing neighbors and that presenting this information would not be in their best interest, and thus they knowingly withheld it. You can not. Are you beginning to get it yet? Do you see the predicament the Courts would find themselves in? I almost guarantee you the OP would lose.

Number three. Do you think it was the intent of the agent to place the OP in a potentially hazardous situation? Do you know for sure it was their intent? Do you think, in the absence of thinking that her race might be an issue, that they did not meet the needs of the OP? Do you think, even for a second, that the OP specified "no skinheads"? Can you prove intent or the neglect of duties? How the hell were they supposed to know that the OP was going to do something stupid like hang racially charged flags on the front lawn? That is what pissed them off. Not the fact that she was there. So the realtor can not be held responsible for the stupidity of the OP.

PROOF PROOF PROOF. INTENT INTENT INTENT. As usual you guys can sit around here babbling all day, but at the end of the day it does not make any difference. You can cite a concept or two, but you have no clue in the world how to apply it effectively to this situation. The onus is on you to prove it. And good luck. That is all I have to say.

See you are yapping off, but you have no idea how to apply the Law or how to see it from the eyes of the Courts. There is absolutely no case here, and even if there was the absolute worse that is going to happen is that the realtor is ordered to pay restitution.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 9/1/2006 1:15:31 PM >

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 65

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:16:07 PM

Chaingang

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Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
According to the OP, the realtor has said this already.

I stand corrected. I had forgotten that detail since my first reading of it a day ago or so.

Anyway, if she did indeed make that admission then it might be worth pursuing in light of that comment. Interestingly enough, if there are no witnesses to the statement she's still going to have the same problem: it could end up a contest of which side is believed. The realtor could deny the statement and that would be first person testimony. The OP's witnessing of the statement is ultimately hearsay. She could testify that she heard the realtor say it, but the realtor could refute by denying the statement or claiming that she was misunderstood somehow. It seems to me that some other evidence might be needed. It seems like a crazy admission to have made, I almost don't believe it.

But yeah, I would pursue the matter legally if there was any chance of getting out of such a situation. It's just the kind of headache no one could possibly need or want. I always try to get along with my neighbors, I just don't see the point of doing anything but getting along with the people I call my neighbors. Maybe someday they will need my assistance or I their's - it's good to have friends.

BTW, are you an attorney?

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/1/2006 1:25:52 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 66

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:17:50 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

There is absolutely no case here, and even if there was the absolute worse that is going to happen is that the realtor is ordered to pay restitution.

There is a case in my estimation. (not that I am a lawyer)
What more could one ask for? Then one can get a house next to bald people, instead of skinheads. Sometimes it is the simple shit that blows your dress up, you understand.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 67

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:20:00 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Laughing. Conversation is over, Kenin. I'd say I know a thing or two about how to apply the law and how to see it from the eyes of a court.

Eruditegirl already cited the law for you. What more is there to say? You get into these ruts where you feel your ego is being questioned because happen to be wrong about a question of fact, and you go on and on defending yourself and attacking the nearest target without listening to what anyone is saying. Remember when you insisted that the Sumerians were writing stories in 15,000 B.C.?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

See you are yapping off, but you have no idea how to apply the Law or how to see it from the eyes of the Courts.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 68

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:24:04 PM

Chaingang

Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: eruditegirl1
(c) A duty to disclose all facts known to the agent materially affecting the value or desirability of the property that are not known to, or within the diligent attention and observation of, the parties.

First I'd like to say that I am on the side of the OP. The situation sucks and a remedy is certainly desirable.

But...

This is why you go to the neighborhood of a new house and spend a few hours sitting in a car at different times during the day and night. You stake it out yourself - I doubt the realtor would do as much. I mean, why should they when you can do so yourself? This "due diligence" things runs both ways. Why is the home buyer surprised who her neighbors are?

That's a harsh lesson to have to learn the hard way, but you always check the neighbors out too.

When I lived in West Oakland I knew the area sucked totally. But everything was behind fences and metal screens etc. Then the goddamned neighborhood kids realized there were a few first floor windows they could still get at with rocks.

Nice.

But at least I wasn't surprised. I knew the place was a spacious two-story Victorian in a crap neighborhood.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/1/2006 1:27:32 PM >

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 69

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:29:12 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Laughing. Conversation is over, Kenin. I'd say I know a thing or two about how to apply the law and how to see it from the eyes of a court.

Eruditegirl already cited the law for you. What more is there to say? You get into these ruts where you feel your ego is being questioned because happen to be wrong about a question of fact, and you go on and on defending yourself and attacking the nearest target without listening to what anyone is saying. Remember when you insisted that the Sumerians were writing stories in 15,000 B.C.?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

See you are yapping off, but you have no idea how to apply the Law or how to see it from the eyes of the Courts.

No you do not know how to apply it obviously, or you would know that a) you have provided no evidence, even when asked to do so, b) you have not provided specific citations, even when asked to do so and c) the concepts that you have brought to our attention do not apply. Even if they did, you have no proof. No intent. Nothing.

Even if the realtor said "yeah I knew all about it but I sold it to you anyways" after the fact, prove that in a Court of Law. You absolutely can not. Why? Because it is he said she said, which boils down to a battle of credibility. Unless the realtor tells the Courts that they did it, it will be up to the Judge to choose a side. Now. Use your head. Who do you think they are going to believe? Hmm? That is a no brainer.

From what I have seen in this thread, you do not have a clue in the world how to apply Law, nor can you view this situation neutrally through the eyes of a Court of competent jurisdiction.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 70

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:31:45 PM

Lordandmaster

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The last thing I'll say about this is...

Exactly why do you people think there are laws about realtors' responsibilities in the first place?

Precisely because of situations like this one.

Aside from the fact that this realtor already ADMITTED her intent--you do not have to demonstrate intent in order to show that a realtor failed to live up to her fiduciary duty. You're not charging her with murder or mayhem. You're just showing that she's a god-damned negligent incompetent realtor who shouldn't be representing buyers.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 71

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:34:13 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

This is why you go to the neighborhood of a new house and spend a few hours sitting in a car at different times during the day and night. You stake it out yourself - I doubt the realtor would do as much. I mean, why should they when you can do so yourself? This "due diligence" things runs both ways. Why is the home buyer surprised who her neighbors are?

I agree with the concept you are presenting.. The posters here are trying to blame everyone else. Like it is somehow magically the responsibility of the realtor to canvas the neighborhood and find out who is who, what is what, etc. Like the realtor has nothing better to do. Complete stupidity.

Anyways, I completely agree that the onus is on the buyer to canvas the neighborhood to know what they are getting themselves into. Do not expect everyone else to do all your dirty work for you. That notion prevails from a number of posters on this board and it stinks.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Post #: 72

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:38:01 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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I don't think it would be all that difficult to prove that a realtor knew about neo-Nazis in a neighborhood that she must be very familiar with. Look, she already admitted to the OP that she knew, so you KNOW she knew. Now all you have to do is SHOW that she knew. It's not simply he-said-she-said. For all you know, the bitch's company might intervene in the OP's behalf just to avoid the bad publicity once a complaint is lodged.

You always seem to think you know how things are going to play out, and you always seem to think that people with clout inevitably win. If you really had as much experience with the law as you pretend to, you'd know that this is hardly the case. I find your cynicism a telling sign of inexperience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Even if the realtor said "yeah I knew all about it but I sold it to you anyways" after the fact, prove that in a Court of Law. You absolutely can not. Why? Because it is he said she said, which boils down to a battle of credibility. Unless the realtor tells the Courts that they did it, it will be up to the Judge to choose a side. Now. Use your head. Who do you think they are going to believe? Hmm? That is a no brainer.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 73

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:38:23 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The last thing I'll say about this is...

Exactly why do you people think there are laws about realtors' responsibilities in the first place?

Precisely because of situations like this one.

Aside from the fact that this realtor already ADMITTED her intent--you do not have to demonstrate intent in order to show that a realtor failed to live up to her fiduciary duty. You're not charging her with murder or mayhem. You're just showing that she's a god-damned negligent incompetent realtor who shouldn't be representing buyers.

Again you have demonstrated that you do not know of that which you speak. You are obligated to prove that the realtor failed to live up to her fiduciary duties and I have explained to you in detail why you can not. Reread My post if you have to.

Secondly, you obviously do not grasp the real estate market. The realtor is not representing the buyer. Everybody that knows anything about anything knows this. They are representing the seller unless they are a dual agent. We do not know if that is the case in this circumstance, but I get the distinct impression that it is not.

Even if the realtor DID say they conveniently omitted the facts, it is next to meaningless. It will be a battle of credibility if it ever goes to Court (unless the realtor openly admits it to the Judge.. yeah...right) and I have a distinct hunch that the Courts will side with the realtor.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

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Post #: 74

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:41:11 PM

Lordandmaster

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A complaint about a realtor doesn't go to a COURT at all. It goes to the local real estate commission. Christ, I'm arguing with a know-nothing.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 75

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:41:22 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
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These transactions are not lassize faire in the United States, anywhere that I am aware of.

Even in very permissible auction law for real estate in minnesota, I must have a lawyer or a broker present during the sale, and although I ain't gotta disclose a goddamn thing, they have to and get signatures on paper. Agreed, more things might have been investigated, but consider Love Canal. Then what?

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 76

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:45:41 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I don't think it would be all that difficult to prove that a realtor knew about neo-Nazis in a neighborhood that she must be very familiar with. Look, she already admitted to the OP that she knew, so you KNOW she knew. Now all you have to do is SHOW that she knew. It's not simply he-said-she-said. For all you know, the bitch's company might intervene in the OP's behalf just to avoid the bad publicity once a complaint is lodged.

You always seem to think you know how things are going to play out, and you always seem to think that people with clout inevitably win. If you really had as much experience with the law as you pretend to, you'd know that this is hardly the case. I find your cynicism a telling sign of inexperience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Even if the realtor said "yeah I knew all about it but I sold it to you anyways" after the fact, prove that in a Court of Law. You absolutely can not. Why? Because it is he said she said, which boils down to a battle of credibility. Unless the realtor tells the Courts that they did it, it will be up to the Judge to choose a side. Now. Use your head. Who do you think they are going to believe? Hmm? That is a no brainer.

If you knew just how much experience I have had with Criminal, Family and Civil Courts, along with Tribunals and police actions, you would understand where I am coming from.

You have to show she knew. You are right. Thank you. That is what I have been saying all along. It is called, once more, proof and intent.... And it is distinctly lacking. Ok, the realtor spilled the beans. Prove it. lol. Good luck. Not going to happen.

You are making assumptions. All of you are. You are assuming this. You are assuming that.. She must have known the territory. She must have known the OP would hang racially charged flags. She must have know that skinheads would hate the buyer. She must have this. She must have that. Well that is all fine and dandy, if you feel like wasting screen space.... But where is your proof? Oh. Right. Proof.. Intent.. The stuff you do not have. I hate to say it, but the Judge kind of likes to see these things.

And why go through all this? She will not be able to escape title, so all of this bullshit arguing is extraneous. None of it solves the problem.

_____________________________

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Post #: 77

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:48:54 PM

Lordandmaster

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I've learned two things: I've learned that you don't understand the concept of "fiduciary duty," and I've learned that you don't understand the concept of "intent." You do not need to prove that she INTENDED to hoodwink the buyer (even though you know she really did, because she admitted it) in order to show that she failed to live up to her obligation "to disclose all facts known to the agent materially affecting the value or desirability of the property that are not known to, or within the diligent attention and observation of, the parties."

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 78

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 1:49:13 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

A complaint about a realtor doesn't go to a COURT at all. It goes to the local real estate commission. Christ, I'm arguing with a know-nothing.

I understand that and am aware of it... But I am not going to type "local real estate commission" every other word. It is too long and My fingers are starting to get sore as it is. Court works for Me. For Pete's sake, nobody else seems to be having troubles making the connection. Make the substitions yourself, unless you are incapable of doing so.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 79

RE: Desperately seeking suggestions….. - 9/1/2006 2:00:11 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I've learned two things: I've learned that you don't understand the concept of "fiduciary duty," and I've learned that you don't understand the concept of "intent." You do not need to prove that she INTENDED to hoodwink the buyer (even though you know she really did, because she admitted it) in order to show that she failed to live up to her obligation "to disclose all facts known to the agent materially affecting the value or desirability of the property that are not known to, or within the diligent attention and observation of, the parties."

I know that you have to prove that she was negligent in her duties. You even agreed to that. I understand what fiduciary duties are, but fail to see what the OP is going to do about it. She can bring them up, but good luck proving it (*sigh* I feel like a broken record). The burden of proof will be on the OP. Their evidence will be "she said this". The realtor will say "I did not" (guaranteed). The Judge will determine who is more credible... Hmmm. I can not imagine what the outcome of that is going to be. I suppose it is possible that the Judge will side with the OP, but I doubt it to be honest. I still do not see what it matters though?

By the way, you have to prove intent, obviously. That is a no brainer. You have to prove that the realtor intentionally neglected her duties. Why I say this is that if the realtor did not know the neighborhood details, or goes before the Court and lies (which she will, guaranteed.. It could very well be her job on the line, although to be honest I do not know how far they would take it), then obviously she did not intend to neglect her duties as a realtor.

Oh, and, umm... Before you say it I know damn well that it is not a Judge... But I think Court/Judge/Prosecutor/Defence. Even at Tribunals and Traffic Court, which obviously they are not.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 9/1/2006 2:01:18 PM >

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Post #: 80

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