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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 12:58:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		It all comes down to want you are prepared to accept in your society. According to the below article the richest 1% of Americans own 40% of the nations wealth. Now if you think that is having it good then your call. To me, your country is taking the piss out of you - presumably you are all working hard and based on this statistic you are creating wealth simply to line the pockets of the American establishment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077949,00.html

This second link is from the London School of Economics and it puts Britain and the US firmly at the bottom of the league for wealth divide in industrial nations - ever wondered why we are two the countries with such high serious crime rates in the industrial world? Create opportunities for all and you will create a healthy society where as wealth divide fosters resentment and a lack of compliance towards social norms.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2005/LSE_SuttonTrust_report.htm

If you are concerned about social disorder then the way to solve it is equal opportunities not what you have now. No amount of reactionary politics will solve the issues that are so often voiced on this board.

Regards

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 1:32:08 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It all comes down to want you are prepared to accept in your society. According to the below article the richest 1% of Americans own 40% of the nations wealth. Now if you think that is having it good then your call. To me, your country is taking the piss out of you - presumably you are all working hard and based on this statistic you are creating wealth simply to line the pockets of the American establishment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077949,00.html

This second link is from the London School of Economics and it puts Britain and the US firmly at the bottom of the league for wealth divide in industrial nations - ever wondered why we are two the countries with such high serious crime rates in the industrial world? Create opportunities for all and you will create a healthy society where as wealth divide fosters resentment and a lack of compliance towards social norms.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2005/LSE_SuttonTrust_report.htm

If you are concerned about social disorder then the way to solve it is equal opportunities not what you have now. No amount of reactionary politics will solve the issues that are so often voiced on this board.

Regards


What's taking the piss out of Americans, is more and more of our money being taken away from us by the government.
And poverty does not cause crime, bad values do. If poverty did, there would have been a huge crime wave during the depression. There wasn't. And you are confusing equal opportunity with equal results.  I am curious Northern Gent, what is you occupation?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 1:47:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: babygirl005

Actually, the reality for many here is pretty good. If you are happy with a "Nanny State" then I could see why the US would seem so threatening. Nothing more secure than "cradle to grave" government. But I kind of like being responsible for myself.
Estring


It's not about the 'Nanny State', it's about living in a decent society where poverty is looked on as a blight. The USA is the richest country in the world, poverty is unnecessary but it exists and from what I've seen, at its worse, it is far worse than western Europe's. Poverty in America is a choice. The US is not threatening, at least not to foreigners, it's its own poor it threatens. Raising the minimum wage does not increase unemployment or at least that has not been Europe's experience.

I gladly pay high taxes to have people earning a decent wage. Sewage workers and garbage collectors are just as necessary for one's health as medical staff, maybe more so so why not pay them a living wage?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 1:51:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Bad values need to be defined to support the argument. But, let's assume we agree on what bad values are. Logically, you would have an equal ratio of bad values across all classes and following your logic you would have equal amounts of crime across all classes. This is factually not the case. Crime is disportionately committed by the poorest socio-economic groups in society.

We agree, your Government is taking your money away from you - however, the stats put up on this board proves that your money is being taken away from you to line the pockets of the American establishment. Of course, the American establishment and their mouth-piece the Government want you to believe your money is not going to them so they manipulate average people into attacking each other on grounds of social provision etc.

I work in finance, anywhere between 50 and 80 hours a week.

Regards


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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 1:57:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		It's not wise to look at the success of a society based on material wealth. The objective should be to create a society where people are content and there is a certain amount of well-being. Honestly, could you say this is the case in the US? High serious crime rates, a huge wealth divide, a society that provides its government with a mandate to slaughter people. To me, the US is far from a successful society.

Regards

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 1:59:43 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

What's taking the piss out of Americans, is more and more of our money being taken away from us by the government.
And poverty does not cause crime, bad values do. If poverty did, there would have been a huge crime wave during the depression. There wasn't. And you are confusing equal opportunity with equal results.  I am curious Northern Gent, what is you occupation?


It is widely accepted that poverty leads to conflict, be it crime or civil strife. The depression happened in a different world when defference to ones 'betters' was the norm. However, even in the depression crime was high.  Look at the 19th century when laisez faire capitalism was at its height, crime was the norm. In fact this was recognised in Britain a century ago. Churchill introduced social security as a cheap way of buying off civil conflict and possible revolution. Poverty brought Hitler and Mussilini to power. It was poverty and economic strife that started the Balkens conflict. It is recognised that poverty is the spark that lights most conflicts and the easiest way to avoid most civil strife is to get rid of poverty. According to the World Bank, decrease poverty by 1% and you decrease conflict by 1%. (Don't ask me how they arrived at that equation)

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:02:02 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: babygirl005

Actually, the reality for many here is pretty good. If you are happy with a "Nanny State" then I could see why the US would seem so threatening. Nothing more secure than "cradle to grave" government. But I kind of like being responsible for myself.
Estring


It's not about the 'Nanny State', it's about living in a decent society where poverty is looked on as a blight. The USA is the richest country in the world, poverty is unnecessary but it exists and from what I've seen, at its worse, it is far worse than western Europe's. Poverty in America is a choice. The US is not threatening, at least not to foreigners, it's its own poor it threatens. Raising the minimum wage does not increase unemployment or at least that has not been Europe's experience.

I gladly pay high taxes to have people earning a decent wage. Sewage workers and garbage collectors are just as necessary for one's health as medical staff, maybe more so so why not pay them a living wage?
                                                               And who is stopping you from paying more? You are so good at using other people's money. Give as much as you want. Do you know how much the government spends on poverty programs here in the US? Billions. Has it gotten rid of poverty? No, and it never will. What has happened is, welfare has become a way of life for many. Poverty is predominantly caused by lack of education, and poor life choices. No amount of money will change that. All you are doing is taking more and more from those who work and are responsible.
Years ago I used to make medical deliveries to people in their homes. I mainly delivered in low income areas. In so many of these households I would see huge television setups with surround sound systems that I certainly couldn't afford. Yet they were getting free or subsidisized medicine delivered to them regularly. What does that say about the choices these people made? And what about the people from Louisiana that used their government money from the Katrina disaster to buy Gucci bags and other luxury items? Sorry, poor life choices. That is why they are where they are. 

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:08:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Charity hand outs and means testing is way of locking people into poverty. A reasonable minimum wage is neither. It is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Allowing the rich to exploit the poor is effectively robbing the poor and giving to the rich. I find it remarkable that so many people can't see exploitation of the poor for what it is and commend the rich for exploiting them. It just seems to me that such people are so gullible and swallowed the propaganda of the rich, hook, line and sinker.

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:20:35 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's not wise to look at the success of a society based on material wealth. The objective should be to create a society where people are content and there is a certain amount of well-being. Honestly, could you say this is the case in the US? High serious crime rates, a huge wealth divide, a society that provides its government with a mandate to slaughter people. To me, the US is far from a successful society.

Regards


Well, in my opinion, because a society does not always reach it's high standards does not make it a bad society. There is nowhere else in the world where you can go from being nothing to being successful as you can here in the US. There is a reason why so many want to live here. And you obviously disagree, but if the US ceased to exist, the world would be a far worse place. There is poverty, and there will always be poverty. Show me a time in history where there wasn't? But there is much less poverty in the world today than at anytime in history. Including in the US. We here in the US are very generous in giving to charity (and Christians on the Right seem to give the most, according to a recent poll). That is the way to take care of your fellow man. Not giving it to the government to waste with ineffecient programs. History bears that out.

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:29:16 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Charity hand outs and means testing is way of locking people into poverty. A reasonable minimum wage is neither. It is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Allowing the rich to exploit the poor is effectively robbing the poor and giving to the rich. I find it remarkable that so many people can't see exploitation of the poor for what it is and commend the rich for exploiting them. It just seems to me that such people are so gullible and swallowed the propaganda of the rich, hook, line and sinker.


You mean the mom and pop store owner who gets driven out of business or has to let employees go because they can't pay the higher wages? They are exploiting whom exactly? You are right, the rich won't be affected, it is the middle class business owners who are affected by well meaning but ill informed actions like rasing minimum wages. And the workers as well, who are let go because their bosses can't afford to keep them.
And where in the hell do you get the notion that private charity breeds poverty? I always thought that people expecting their government to take care of them for life through welfare and entitlement programs was the culprit. Instead of being a safety net, it became a way of life. And ruined many lives in the process. How is that compassionate? Or right?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:34:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Why is it that when the government uses tax dollars to eliviate poverty it is inefficient and despised but when it uses tax dollars to subsidize the military-industrial complex and start unnecessary wars it is somehow above criticism?

A higher minimum wage is not charity nor is it about tax dollars. It is the minimal regulation a country can do to alleviate poverty.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/2/2006 2:35:16 PM >

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:36:21 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

A small business owner employs 3 workers. He pays them $5.00 an hour. He pays a total of $31,200 a year in salary for his 3 employees. Minimum wage is brought up to $8.00 an hour. Store owner is now paying $49,920 a year in total wages, increasing his outlay by $18,720. If the government gives him a tax break of $18,720, he will not be under an increased burden wage-wise, the 3 employees will see a nicer paycheck and better standard of living, they will put more money into the economy with increased spending and taxes..... why can't this be done?


Why can't this be done?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:46:02 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Why is it that when the government uses tax dollars to eliviate poverty it is inefficient and despised but when it uses tax dollars to subsidize the military-industrial complex and start unnecessary wars it is somehow above criticism?

A higher minimum wage is not charity nor is it about tax dollars. It is the minimal regulation a country can do to alleviate poverty.


Except it doesn't work. Does that matter to you?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 2:52:03 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		It does work. It has worked in Britain, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland etc. etc. etc. The problems with unemployment in Germany and France are more to do with their reluctance to deregulate parts of the economy and privatise those parts that would be better privatised.

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 3:02:01 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It does work. It has worked in Britain, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland etc. etc. etc. The problems with unemployment in Germany and France are more to do with their reluctance to deregulate parts of the economy and privatise those parts that would be better privatised.


If you are willing to give up a ton of your money for lousy healthcare, well I suppose that is a way of working. Where do you think people who live in those countries and can afford to, get their health care when they have a serious medical problem? They come here to the US. Now why is that? Because they want quality. You don't get quality from a government program. A car with a flat tire still works. But would I want to drive it?

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 3:27:40 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		People have paid huge sums for health care in the US but it is so costly most Americans can't have it either. A few headline cases of a few desperate people would not have me change what we have for what you have. Of course if you are rich, it really doesn't matter where you live, the quack medical industry will sell you anything, even promises of eternal life. Prevention is better than cure which is the whole point of a universal healhcare system and it works, US citizens live no longer than Cubans for all of their money they pay into healthcare insurance. They just make the rich richer and for no reward.

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 3:52:14 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Estring,

There is nowhere else in the world where you can go from being nothing to being successful as you can here in the US.
 
Can you qualify this statement? What makes you think the same doesn't exist in other industrialised nations? For example, a recent British Prime Minister lived in a council flat at 20 years old and left school with relatively poor qualifications.

And you obviously disagree, but if the US ceased to exist, the world would be a far worse place
 
You're taking this to an extreme in order to offer some sort of defence. Genuinely, the US isn't the big deal to us that your comment would suggest you believe it is. I personally couldn't give a flying one about what is going on in the US, US domestic politics means nothing to me but US foreign policy represents a huge threat to world stability and that is why we are concerned with your Government. If your government minded its own business then, honestly, we wouldn't think twice about what's going on over there. The other reason I comment on the US is for the same reason I comment on Britain - both have huge wealth divides and in my opinion it is not healthy - if it was France I'd be saying exactly the same thing.

We here in the US are very generous in giving to charity (and Christians on the Right seem to give the most, according to a recent poll). That is the way to take care of your fellow man. Not giving it to the government to waste with ineffecient programs. History bears that out.
 
I'm not clear what you're saying in the above paragraph. It seems to be 1) Americans are more charitable than the rest of the world 2) It is the christian right who provide this charity 3) It is more useful than Government organisation.

Can you explain how you have arrived at these conclusions?

Regards



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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 4:01:12 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		If you are willing to give up a ton of your money for lousy healthcare, well I suppose that is a way of working. Where do you think people who live in those countries and can afford to, get their health care when they have a serious medical problem? They come here to the US. Now why is that? Because they want quality. You don't get quality from a government program. A car with a flat tire still works. But would I want to drive it?

Estring, it is clear what you are saying from this - you want to live in a country that can provide the best for those who have the money to pay for it. I won't give my own judgement but I will state this fact - around the time your country was formed thinkers in my country were designing ways to progress beyond this sort of society based on exclusivity. I'm beginning to understand the values held by American Conservatives and the conclusion is that you hold the same values that underpin British Conservatism (despite level doing his level best to show otherwise).

Regards

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 4:12:45 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If you are willing to give up a ton of your money for lousy healthcare, well I suppose that is a way of working. Where do you think people who live in those countries and can afford to, get their health care when they have a serious medical problem? They come here to the US. Now why is that? Because they want quality. You don't get quality from a government program. A car with a flat tire still works. But would I want to drive it?

Estring, it is clear what you are saying from this - you want to live in a country that can provide the best for those who have the money to pay for it. I won't give my own judgement but I will state this fact - around the time your country was formed thinkers in my country were designing ways to progress beyond this sort of society based on exclusivity. I'm beginning to understand the values held by American Conservatives and the conclusion is that you hold the same values that underpin British Conservatism (despite level doing his level best to show otherwise).

Regards



Level would point out that some conservatives have no heart; really, blanket statements serve little purpose. And I'll add that having read this thread, and so many others like it, it perplexes me (just a little) how I find so much truth and wisdom on both "sides", but there is such a seeming determination from so many to not do the same. I do realize that I'm seeing a small part of each posters thoughts, so I hope I'm wrong on this.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 4:22:16 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Point taken Level. Agreed, I made a generalisation based on the comments of one person. Is there anyway I can retreat from this position and make it look like I just made a tactical mistake?

Regards

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Profile   Post #: 60
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