Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage...


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 10:15:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The ratio of wages between top earners and bottom earners is an act of policy in each country. If there was a natural level one would assume the ratio would be similar in similar economies but this is not so. The US as a policy of subsidizing the rich at the expense of the poor and this is reflected in salaries. In European countries where the policy is more that people on higher salaries pay a fairer share of the national burden, the ratio between the salaries of the top earners and bottom earners is not so wide.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:17:13 PM   
SubmissiveOphelia


Posts: 80
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: NYC
Status: offline 		Honestly, minimum wage is unskilled labor. I do not think unskilled labor should be paid well as in a job that requires an education.

I drove a coach bus and was paid what I was worth for somewhat unskilled labor: all you need is a CDL. Anyone can get a CDL. Hence, it shows in the pay rate!

Now, somebody such as my husband, who is graduating college and getting his CPA, yes, he will and should be paid well. He earned it! He earned the title. He deserves to make a lot of money! So does anyone with the credentials.

I know I will get hell for this post, but so be it!

I worked many types of jobs, everything from washing dishes to doing what I do not: pro subbing. I have seen all types of pay. A dishwasher shouldn't be paid much because it is not much.


_____________________________

http://www.submissiveophelia.com/


(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:23:42 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not sure how many are saying "pay a dishwasher as much as an airline pilot"... I think some believe anyone putting in effort and working a 40 hour week should be paid enough to make do.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SubmissiveOphelia)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:25:42 PM   
SubmissiveOphelia


Posts: 80
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: NYC
Status: offline 		The economy and this country needs a lower class aka poor people to succeed. It is the way we work. If they do not like it, they can go to school and get a real job! ;-)

_____________________________

http://www.submissiveophelia.com/


(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:35:16 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've got a double degree and a masters and I'm sure there are many on this board far more educated than me but I don't see what diplomas or credentials have to do with it. It is all to do with self interest and nothing to do with benefiting society other than indirectly. I was reading somewhere that none of the top 100 CEOs in America have a college education while just about 100% assistant CEOs have a college education (that was a couple of years ago I read that.). Diplomas and credentials are merely licences to take a particular career path and should have little to do with a potential salary. How much do lawyers contribute to society? Very little from my experience, give me a garbage collector any time they are far more useful. In Britain now there are apparently so many people getting degrees they have become meaningless and skilled craftsmen can earn far more money than many graduates because of the job market.

But this is getting away from the point. 95% of people can do 95% of all jobs in society given the chance, most jobs aren't a big deal, though many professions like the general public to think they are.

(in reply to SubmissiveOphelia)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:39:13 PM   
SubmissiveOphelia


Posts: 80
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: NYC
Status: offline 		Most jobs aren't a big deal? You prefer a garbage man? LOL!
One of my best friends is a famed cancer researcher and his job is a big deal! Lawyers (good lawyers) contribute a lot to this world. My husband's father was a damn good lawyer and took on evern many pro bono cases. So, yes, one gets what they are worth. I do not believe a story that so many CEOs are without a degree. Just do not buy it. Some, yes.


_____________________________

http://www.submissiveophelia.com/


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:39:31 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveOphelia

The economy and this country needs a lower class aka poor people to succeed. It is the way we work. If they do not like it, they can go to school and get a real job! ;-)


Yes, we need something to step on.......
 
Washing dishes is a real job, as is doing laundry at a nursing home, and working the register at a convience store. Not everyone can just hop on down to a college and get a degree. Although some certainly could do things to better their lives, I'll say that.

< Message edited by Level -- 9/4/2006 12:40:02 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SubmissiveOphelia)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:44:41 PM   
SubmissiveOphelia


Posts: 80
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: NYC
Status: offline 		No it is being lazy and stupid. Stupid piecework for stupid people. 

_____________________________

http://www.submissiveophelia.com/


(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:44:52 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
But this is getting away from the point. 95% of people can do 95% of all jobs in society given the chance, most jobs aren't a big deal, though many professions like the general public to think they are.


Amen.  (Had to point that out...was always a lot off contention between me and my ex on that subject. )

A lot of entry level jobs anymore require at least a bachelors degree and only want to pay $10 an hour (at least in the Columbus, Ohio area - I can only speak of that of which I am familiar).  Try living on that and paying off school loans.  I made more money than that 10 years ago with no college degree.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:52:58 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveOphelia

Most jobs aren't a big deal? You prefer a garbage man? LOL!
One of my best friends is a famed cancer researcher and his job is a big deal! Lawyers (good lawyers) contribute a lot to this world. My husband's father was a damn good lawyer and took on evern many pro bono cases. So, yes, one gets what they are worth. I do not believe a story that so many CEOs are without a degree. Just do not buy it. Some, yes.



Lawyers and cancer specialists aren't entrepreneurial on the whole so they have to rely on someone else creating the wealth before they can earn a living. Society is symbiotic and no that isn't a form of cancer. We all need each other and my point was, garbage collectors and water treatment workers are probably more necessary for the health of society than famed cancer specialists!

(in reply to SubmissiveOphelia)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:56:50 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveOphelia

No it is being lazy and stupid. Stupid piecework for stupid people. 


Aren't you a beacon of sunshine?
 
My mother got up at 3 AM every day of the week to work at a grocery store to try to make ends meet for she and I. She is perhaps the finest  human being I've ever known, and there are loudmouth piece of shits that aren't fit to kiss the ground she walks on. No matter how much they make.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SubmissiveOphelia)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 12:59:50 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Well said Level.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 1:05:57 PM   
SubmissiveOphelia


Posts: 80
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: NYC
Status: offline 		Well to each their own....right?

_____________________________

http://www.submissiveophelia.com/


(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 1:22:25 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Policy doesn't set it meatcleaver the societies values set it, long before policy gets involved policy attempts to change the equilibrium. Minimum wage attempts to change it without treating the actual cause.
Unless you change the supply and demand of a specific type of labor you cannot sustain an equilibrium shift.
Make it so that everyone needs a domestic and the wages for domestic help will increase until supply catches up.
Without a change in how the market values a given skill no change you can make in wages alone will sustain.

The difference in Europe and the US isn't policy it's societal values. The subsidies go to the rich because they are smart enough to possition themselves for the policy as opposed to hoping that the policy will shift to suit them. Haliburton and KBR didn't start a company and hope that policy would shift so they could get government contracts they saw where the government contracts were going and changed themselves to fit the policy. Same for almost every company out there they see the policy and possition themselves for it, if they make the right moves they get contracts if not they go out of business.

The rich are taught from the time they are born how to make and manage money from an entirely different perspective than the poor and middle class. There is a difference between learning how to make and manage money and how to get a good job and work all your life for someone else. That is the difference, the rich force their kids to learn one set of lessons and values and the middle class and poor teach another. The results are as predictable as a two headed coin toss.



(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 2:57:46 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		And who governs the country and decides the policy? The rich of course, the same rich who benefit from the policy and so consolidate their position through policy. (This is just me but I get a whiff of medieval robber barons here.)

The fact is, minimal wage is a policy choice and the average western European lives in a society that has the minimal wage and being as wealthy as the average American,  with a smaller salary differential, it just shows that the minimum wage doesn't detrimentally affect the economy. In fact as I have previously stated, Britain introduced a minimum wage and jobs continued to be created. Any drag in the German and French economy are not to do with the minimum wage but to do with protectionist policies.

The minimum wage is both a policy choice and a choice of values. The right wing have always been against anything that might aleviate poverty. If it was down to the rightwing, we would still live in the squalor of the industrial revolution because anything else would destroy indstry and wealth creation.

And that would save money by 'decreasing the surplus population'.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/4/2006 3:03:19 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 3:31:41 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The Heritage Foundatio would say your estimation of them being as wealthy as our minimum wage worker is flawed tragicly.

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
    Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
    Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
    Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
    The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
    Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
    Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
    Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
    Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

By comparison using "Stuff" and housing conditions, they have a higher standard of living that the average european.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Now of course I know that being the source is the Heritage Foundation the study will be discounted entirely, but at least I post sources.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 3:34:23 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveOphelia

Most jobs aren't a big deal? You prefer a garbage man? LOL!
One of my best friends is a famed cancer researcher and his job is a big deal! Lawyers (good lawyers) contribute a lot to this world. My husband's father was a damn good lawyer and took on evern many pro bono cases. So, yes, one gets what they are worth. I do not believe a story that so many CEOs are without a degree. Just do not buy it. Some, yes.



Lawyers and cancer specialists aren't entrepreneurial on the whole so they have to rely on someone else creating the wealth before they can earn a living. Society is symbiotic and no that isn't a form of cancer. We all need each other and my point was, garbage collectors and water treatment workers are probably more necessary for the health of society than famed cancer specialists!


More nessisary certainly however supply and demand says that I can find more people qualified to be garbage collectors than I can cancer specialists. Their training takes weeks not years, and thus their compensation is dramaticly less.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 3:44:41 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Much as we vaunt cancer specialists amongst other specialists because we hope we will never need one but hope one will be there when we do, I think we probably give them a false importance. Being purely objective, how much of a contribution do they make to the health of a nation? Probably not as much as their salary suggests. Demand can be based as much on perception as need. Perception is something we can change.

As for average wealth of Europeans compared to Americans. If we are incorporating the likes of Greece into Western Europe and I guess they are part of the EU, I have to concede on that point.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 4:05:37 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Archer
    Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

    Renting or owning ones home is not seen as  a wealth indicator in many parts of Europe. In Germany where the richest Europeans are people with good incomes are just as likely to rent as buy. Many don't see a home as investment because you have to live somewhere.


    Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.


      I once lived in France where the temp. regularly rose to 100 in the height of summer. There just wasn't a tradition of using air conditioning. People just took a long lunch and siesta and sat the hottest part of the day out dozing in in conversation. A very civilised way to do it.

      Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
      The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

      America has far more space but here we have supply and demand. Demand is very high in capital cities and space is a premium. I lived in a small apartment in London and I sold it for five times the price I paid for my apartment here which is three times the size.


      Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

      I don't own a car but I am far from poor, being a middle income taxpayer at 40%. The public transport system in the city I live is second to none and that should go towards the quality of someone's life who lives in this city.


      Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

      I own a small TV but I'm not poor.


      Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.




          Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

          I know many people who aren't poor but don't own a microwave, particularly in France. Lack of a microwave could be cultural rather than a wealth thing. I don't own one myself.









                      By comparison using "Stuff" and housing conditions, they have a higher standard of living that the average european.

                      http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

                      Now of course I know that being the source is the Heritage Foundation the study will be discounted entirely, but at least I post sources.

                      There are cultural differences at play here. I'm not sure how good a comparison comparing material goods is.

                      < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/4/2006 4:06:17 PM >

                      (in reply to Archer)
                      Profile   Post #: 99
                      RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 5:57:53 PM   
                      knees2you


                      Posts: 2336
                      Joined: 3/15/2004
                      Status: offline
                        quote:


                          I don't own a car but I am far from poor, being a middle income taxpayer at 40%. The public transport system in the city I live is second to none and that should go towards the quality of someone's life who lives in this city.


                        I wish Vegases Buses where good.

                        This Quote means alot.


                        Sincerely, Ant & LilBecque

                      (in reply to meatcleaver)
                      Profile   Post #: 100
                      Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
                      All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
                      Jump to:





                      New Messages No New Messages
                      Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
                      Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
                       Post New Thread
                       Reply to Message
                       Post New Poll
                       Submit Vote
                       Delete My Own Post
                       Delete My Own Thread
                       Rate Posts




                      Collarchat.com © 2025
                      Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

                      0.078