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RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 4:31:51 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Point taken Level. Agreed, I made a generalisation based on the comments of one person. Is there anyway I can retreat from this position and make it look like I just made a tactical mistake?

Regards


Just claim a typo, and all should be good .

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 8:03:11 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
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quote:

If you are willing to give up a ton of your money for lousy healthcare, well I suppose that is a way of working. Where do you think people who live in those countries and can afford to, get their health care when they have a serious medical problem? They come here to the US. Now why is that? Because they want quality. You don't get quality from a government program. A car with a flat tire still works. But would I want to drive it?

 
And we call ourselves land of the Free. Maybe land of the Freebees?
 
Give to everybody else, but not Ourselves.
 
Ok 13 dollars an hour?
At least people wouldn't have to be so dependent on
somebody else...
 
Ant & Lilbecque



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/2/2006 10:16:43 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Funny how quick some are to bring out the argument that if you raise wages, prices instantly and perfectly flow upward to match and yet that same rise in wages somehow magically isn't enough to keep the mom and pop business afloat.

Discounting of course that the reason's mom and pops are going out of business is that they are taxed at the full rate, pay higher than min wage, and are not subsidized by local governments.  Walmarts and Home Depots are often subsidized by local governments, which is welfare, pay absolute rock bottom min wage and sell chinese shit and drive the mom and pops out of business.

There is plenty of idiocy on both the left and the right on this issue.  It would be nice to see a debate rise above that.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 3:11:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Too true CD. Both left and right governments have subsidized self interest groups at the expense of rational policy and there is an awful lot of welfare out there for corporations and still those corporations pay minimal wages. This has the effect of government having to give welfare to people who are actually working for a living! If a job is a real job, then the worker shouldn't have to rely on tax breaks or welfare handouts to survive. The reasons for this state of affairs is complex and has a lot to do with protectionism amongst other reasons. However, governments should get back to creating an economic environment for business to operate in on a level playing field while paying decent wages. Some jobs will always be outsourced, that is the nature of the world in which we live. If capitalism is as great as what the right claims it is then other businesses will fill in any gap left in the market. When Britain adopted a minimum wage, the right claimed it would cost millions of jobs. Since then, a couple of million jobs have been created.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 5:58:59 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"If you are willing to give up a ton of your money for lousy healthcare, well I suppose that is a way of working. Where do you think people who live in those countries and can afford to, get their health care when they have a serious medical problem? They come here to the US."

....no they don't. The UK was one of the countries you said did this and i'm here to tell you Estring that what you have claimed is nonsense. Please provide data that backs up your claim that many people from the UK come to america for medical aid. i am sure you will find evidence that a few have come over to work with some specialist or other.....this is normal, some americans go overseas for exactly the same reason. The specialist. What you implied however, was that thousands of Brits, dis-satisfied with a free at the point of delivery health service, want to travel to America and pay for health care. As you have claimed this i am sure you can prove it. i look forward to your incontrovertable evidence.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 8:18:45 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		What I find most interesting about this entire debate is that during the 1950s and '60s when there was a HUGE and WELL PAID middle class this country was doing fantastic, after the 1960s, wages have been FLAT while GDP has soured.

Starting with Raygun, the tax burden in this country has been being shifted off of the rich and onto the middle class.  So, in addition to their wages just keeping up with inflation the bulk of the middle class is also shouldering the major tax burden to support this country.  All while the incomes of the rich have soured around 2,000 percent!

So, say we knocked that back to about 1,500 percent, there would be plenty to go around and the rich would still be getting a free ride, just not quite such a lofty one.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 8:42:22 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Yup.  As the super-rich move to Bermuda and other tax havens, or simply hide their money legally.

Also, we might want to remember that the super-rich don't have mattresses stuffed with money, the re-invest it, giving other people jobs.  tax them to death, and they won't be able to give us jobs, which means that the government will have more money in the short term, but a few years down the road, they will have squeezed the last money out of the corpse of the economy.

There really is no ideal solution.



Yes there is, but we'll probably never see it in our lifetimes. We are too busy fighting each other by defending our blind faith to the ideals we endear ourselves to.

Instead of getting drawn into the same old, tired argumentive rhetorics of left vs. right, rich vs. poor, revised income tax schemes, trickle-down theories, etc., etc., that get us nowhere, why not focus on the true source of the problem?

Raising the minimum wage would only offer temporary relief to wage-earners at the bottom of the wage rung ladder, at best. The domino effect that would follow such an increase would soon put us back to square-one.

If we want to create a genuine, lasting, equitable, wealth distribution, we need to dismantle the privately-owned Federal Reserve, and put the power of money creation back into the hands of the people.

The answer is really that simple. The task, however, is gargantuan. The ultra-elite who control the vast power of money creation isn't about to step aside willingly!  

One major flaw of our current, debt-based monetary system is that it guarantees there will never be enough currency for everyone to repay their debts. It's virtually impossible, even if we all went out and got better skills.

Think of the current system as a vast number of musical chairs games, where there will always be losers.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 5:38:20 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Yup.  As the super-rich move to Bermuda and other tax havens, or simply hide their money legally.

Also, we might want to remember that the super-rich don't have mattresses stuffed with money, the re-invest it, giving other people jobs.  tax them to death, and they won't be able to give us jobs, which means that the government will have more money in the short term, but a few years down the road, they will have squeezed the last money out of the corpse of the economy.

There really is no ideal solution.




quote:

Yes there is, but we'll probably never see it in our lifetimes. We are too busy fighting each other by defending our blind faith to the ideals we endear ourselves to.

Instead of getting drawn into the same old, tired argumentive rhetorics of left vs. right, rich vs. poor, revised income tax schemes, trickle-down theories, etc., etc., that get us nowhere, why not focus on the true source of the problem?

Raising the minimum wage would only offer temporary relief to wage-earners at the bottom of the wage rung ladder, at best. The domino effect that would follow such an increase would soon put us back to square-one.

If we want to create a genuine, lasting, equitable, wealth distribution, we need to dismantle the privately-owned Federal Reserve, and put the power of money creation back into the hands of the people.

The answer is really that simple. The task, however, is gargantuan. The ultra-elite who control the vast power of money creation isn't about to step aside willingly!  

One major flaw of our current, debt-based monetary system is that it guarantees there will never be enough currency for everyone to repay their debts. It's virtually impossible, even if we all went out and got better skills.

Think of the current system as a vast number of musical chairs games, where there will always be losers.

 
Ok,
I agree we are to busy fighting ourselves.
What a dying shame to.
 
We really could help oursleves while helping others.
 
Ant & LilBecque
 

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 8:24:15 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Again the trickle up effect of minimum wage has been ignored.

If I am a scientist making $20 an hour and they move minimum wage up to $20 an hour you think I'm not going in to the boss that day and saying With 10 years experience I was worth about 4 times what this new hire was worth yesterday I expect that I am still worth 4 times what he's worth today, so My salary is going to $80 an hour right?

And so would every other thinking wage earner already employed at more than minimum, The net effect in percentages is 0 gain for anyone, just a suffle of numbers. Everyone gets a raise and everyone pays more for their goods and in the end you're back where you were after a very short adjustment period.

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 9:44:40 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Archer,

Great theory except minimum wage is $6.75 and most of those people work part time.  Howver, for the sake of argument lets say most work full time at one job and half time at another for a total of 60 hours a week.  That grosses them about $19K a year, so about 15k after taxes.  If it is bumped up to $8 an hour that is a $3k a year increase.

Starting salary for a scientist fresh out of school is about $41K with the median for working scientists at about $78K.  Of course, those jobs offer things like medical, company cars, paid vacations, sick leave, 401ks and other benefits that someone working two jobs doesn't qualify for.

Tell you what, when they make the min wage the same as a scientist, I will join you to fight it as a dumb idea, till then, it can't hurt.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 10:07:09 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

A small business owner employs 3 workers. He pays them $5.00 an hour. He pays a total of $31,200 a year in salary for his 3 employees. Minimum wage is brought up to $8.00 an hour. Store owner is now paying $49,920 a year in total wages, increasing his outlay by $18,720. If the government gives him a tax break of $18,720, he will not be under an increased burden wage-wise, the 3 employees will see a nicer paycheck and better standard of living, they will put more money into the economy with increased spending and taxes..... why can't this be done?


Why can't this be done?
Nobody seemed to want to touch this one Level. The equation won't work because not only will the actual wages increase, there's the issue of the matching contribution to Social Security (FICA) the employer will have to kick in, as well as a few other taxes that are based on the employee's income. An employee's fully "weighted" cost is much different than the actual wage paid to them.

< Message edited by ScooterTrash -- 9/3/2006 10:08:00 PM >

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 10:20:56 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Those people who argue against the minimum wage conveniently ignore the British experience where the right said a minimum wage would destroy over a million jobs, yet since the minimum wage there are a couple of million extra jobs in the economy and Britain has absorbed 600,000 Polish immigrants.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 10:27:58 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		The reality of the min wage hike is that it is a cheap political football that caters to the ignorant on both sides of the debate.

Want to increase the standard of living of people making min wage?  Offer simple preventative medical care   If they get cancer, we pay for it anyway, but if it was caught early it would be cheaper for the taxpayer.  Same goes for dental, free teeth cleaning. 

Allow Nurse Practitioners to do more medical care.

Cheap, practical, and absolutely civilized.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/3/2006 10:46:17 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

A small business owner employs 3 workers. He pays them $5.00 an hour. He pays a total of $31,200 a year in salary for his 3 employees. Minimum wage is brought up to $8.00 an hour. Store owner is now paying $49,920 a year in total wages, increasing his outlay by $18,720. If the government gives him a tax break of $18,720, he will not be under an increased burden wage-wise, the 3 employees will see a nicer paycheck and better standard of living, they will put more money into the economy with increased spending and taxes..... why can't this be done?


Why can't this be done?
Nobody seemed to want to touch this one Level. The equation won't work because not only will the actual wages increase, there's the issue of the matching contribution to Social Security (FICA) the employer will have to kick in, as well as a few other taxes that are based on the employee's income. An employee's fully "weighted" cost is much different than the actual wage paid to them.


I noticed that, Scooter, I was going to try again, but with naked dancing girls, see if that'd get it any attention lol. Thanks for answering it, though. I was wondering about the extra costs, and if there was a way to lessen the burden on the employer. This is like the universal healthcare issue, doesn't seem to be a grand solution, but I can't get it out of my head, either.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 2:25:02 AM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		General Reply...

Ok, maybe you all can help me understand some things - and some things I just want to highlight.

1.  If a company, say fast food, can afford to increase wages without increasing consumer prices in an area with full employment (where it is hard to find workers), why can't they afford to raise minimum wage?

2.  A person working full time at minimum wage can still, in my area at least, qualify for food stamps so raising the minimum wage will bump them out of that range and the increase they pay for food will eat up any difference in wage.  Or are the guidelines used to qualify for such aid set by minimum wage?  If we raise the minimum wage and get these people off government aid, aren't we saving money in taxes?  Or at least using that tax money elsewhere, like education for example?

3.  Housing costs are based on market prices in the area and availabilty.  I live in the fastest growing county in my state.  New builds going up left and right and a lot of apartments standing empty.  Minimum wage doesn't affect the housing market.

4.  I have always heard that minimum wage is beneficial to us all because if minimum wage increases, all wages increase across the board and we put more money into spending.  So if we are spending more can't the business owner then afford to pay minimum wage to his employees?

5.   Noone is talking about doubling minimum wage.  I think everyone can agree that it would be detrimental to do that.  What was proposed in Congress was a step increase phased in over a period of time - years.

I see points to both sides of the argument and these are just some questions/thoughts I had after reading this thread.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 5:55:39 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

The reality of the min wage hike is that it is a cheap political football that caters to the ignorant on both sides of the debate.

Want to increase the standard of living of people making min wage?  Offer simple preventative medical care   If they get cancer, we pay for it anyway, but if it was caught early it would be cheaper for the taxpayer.  Same goes for dental, free teeth cleaning. 

Allow Nurse Practitioners to do more medical care.

Cheap, practical, and absolutely civilized.
Good point CD, if they want to really make a dent in the plight of the lower income, offering benefits that would potentially have a bigger impact would be a great first step. One serious (or perhaps not even that serious) illness could wipe out everything they ever worked for and ruin their chances of getting ahead for years.   

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 6:50:02 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Universal healthcare and a minimum wage go hand in hand.

As for those people who think people need to suffer to make them get up in the morning, how come the rich don't need to suffer to make them get up in the morning?

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 9:01:00 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		CrappyDom, the numbers were not the point. Whatever they are trying to raise it to those between minmum then and whatever it gets raised to are also going to feel the desire to go in to the boss and ask for their own raise to put them right back to the same possiion they earned themselves before making $X more than minimum or Y% over minimum. The wages will domino up the line as well.

Lets just say 100 employees with:

10 at minimum,
30 at $8
25 at $10
14 at $12
10 at $16
6 at   $20 (equivolent salary)
3 at   $25
1 at   $35
1  at  $50

TOTAL $1150.5 per plant hour wages/salary only


If you raise minimum to whatever number, so that the unskilled starting worker makes $10, then automaticly you have 55 other people who will be feeling unvalued because after working their way up they are now again making minimum wage. Those 55 will demand raises in order to feel that the company cares about the time they have already worked for the company. That set of raises will topple the next couple lines in the company wage structure as well.

So then with that same 100 employes you're going to end up looking like this:

10 at minimum (raised to $10)
30 at $13
25 at $15
14 at $17
10 at $21
6 at   $24
3 at   $29
1 at   $39
1 at   $54

TOTAL 1637 per plant hour

And that assumes they all go by dollar ammount difference as opposed to percentage which would be more accurate and fair but the math tougher to do here in the post.


Proof that this will happen is in the fact that most union contracts have a provission saying $X an hour or (minimum +Y) whichever is higher. So obviously the union wages will automaticly be boosted because the unions have already seen that a "union man" with so many years is worth minimum + Y how long before you think the rest of the wage earners would figure out what they were worth in relation to minimum wage yesterday and demand their raise to return to their former relational status to minimum wage.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 9:16:21 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Archer,

So by your logic we should do our best to lower their wages so the rest of us weill do better.


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Minimum Rage! opps Wage, dangit Wage... - 9/4/2006 9:56:34 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		No CrappyDom by my logic wages will seek equilibrium all on their own reguardless of what you do to them. An Unskilled laborer is worth X% of a skilled laborer and Y% of a manager. and no matter what number you adjust it to the % will return the equilibrium.

The dollar amounts are just an expression of the value of the work each performs in relation to the others, and it wouldn't matter in the long run if you raised minimum to $4,000 an hour it changes the difference between the job values not one bit.
All that ends up changing is what numbers you choose to plug in the relationship is fairly constant.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 80
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