RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (Full Version)

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velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 1:14:42 PM)

i absolutely agree with your premise marieToo and understand the depths of degredation some slaves aspire to live and thrive under. Personally i find it distasteful and would not want to associate myself socially with them.  If thats how they choose to live and what makes them fulfilled - however twisted i think that is, i would not be one to say no you can't live such a way.  my concern was only when it was taken to the extreme of the slave being killed.  Give me a valid reason why - such as she had a terminal illness and was in so much pain her Master thought it would be in her best interest to end her life rather then suffer, that would perhaps make some sene to me.  But anyone who would die on command is not IN command of their faculties.  It's murder/suicide.  If someone was on the ledge of a building and wanted to jump off, by everyones logic we should just feep on about our business and say oh well it's his business hes an adult and can make his own decisions.  i just can't agree with that reasoning.  i do so much appreciate your taking the time to state your points very well and kindly to me. i truly understand where you are coming from. Don't worry i don't loose sleep over it lol.  It's actually been interesting reading how others feel about this point.



Slipstreme -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 1:22:44 PM)

Quick reply to OP: My slave does not, but mostly, because she will not say no. She might complain (tends to when I bring up the idea of hook suspension), but when it comes right down to it, she will not say no. even though I would never intrinsically take that away from her.

I also would never ask something from her that would place her in any real danger, or at least not any danger I can't counter or deal with.



velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 1:28:13 PM)

ImpGrrl

i fail to see the contradiction you see in my first two post sections.  If it's your stance to sit by while a suicide/murder takes place go right ahead, it's not mine.

The unmentionnables seem to bother you cause its not "concentual" - well i would argue that a slave who dies on command is really doing it concentually either, you can't argue with the fact that mental/emotional illness does exist can you? 

What you mentioned was a ridiculous hypothetical.  Would nothing bother you that two consenting adults did together? - wowowow what an openminded individual you are *tips my hat to you for that one*

Did you decide SSC was limited to play? Where is this rule written??

"There are far worse things than death" - And your point is??

The only thing we seem to agree on is everyne has limits. 



millisande -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 1:49:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

This lifestyle is about SSC



Greetings, again, to all.

Here again, i would have to disagree. The lifestyle that i am part of, at least, has nothing to do with SSC, or RACK, or any other cool acronym.
my lifestyle is defined by what pleases my Master. nothing more or less.
not trying to get on your case, velvetears, so, please, dont be offended, but could you please define exactly what you mean by the words "this lifestyle"?

Edited to add

quote:

The unmentionnables seem to bother you cause its not "concentual" - well i would argue that a slave who dies on command is really doing it concentually either, you can't argue with the fact that mental/emotional illness does exist can you?


velvetears, you are comming across, in my view, at least, as saying here that someone who's level of submission surpasses the limits that you have set up as acceptable, is mentally, or emotionally ill...

this is much like the current medical/legal world saying that anyone who partakes in M/s relationships, or is involved in BDSM, is mentally, or emotionally ill.

if this is not the parallel you were trying to draw, please correct me.

best wishes to thee and thine,
With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf



velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 1:59:41 PM)

millisande,

i agree it's not a very useful acronym as what people consider safe or sane or even consentual will differ greatly - as evidence in even the posts in this thread.  But it is at leat an attempt at some kind of guidline to keep people from being injured and hurt. 

As i understand it - it is more accepted in the D/s "lifestyle" rather then M/s - two different dynamics at work.  And of course in bdsm play between Top/bottom.

i certainly have no intentions in coming across that way and i think people are jumping the gun when they read that into it. Heck i have lots of personal limits many of my friends don't have and wouldn't think to tell them they are wrong not to have them.

i will reiterate again my concern is when it crosses the boundaries of legality in murder/suicide - yes i believe this is an indication of mental unbalance/illness/sickness etc. 



millisande -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:17:38 PM)

velvetears,
thank you very much for clarifying.

*A note before i continue... i am not, in any way, advocating suicide, nor murder... *

i would now like to point out that, almost everything we (the entire non-vanilla community, as a whole) as well as several thing that most "vanilla" people do, all cross lines of legality. For instance, in many places, having sex in any other position than missionary, is illegal.

As for the illegality of suicide, well, that differs from country to country. there aremany, many places in this worl where commiting suicide poses no legal quandries whatsoever.

Also, on that note.. illegal, or not, what does it matter? What are the courts gonna do? give them 30 to life? the death sentence?

and, a question...
why do you believe that the willingness to dedicate your life to a cause is an indication of a mental unballence? by that some token, anyone who volunteers to join the military, in any of it's forms, is also mentally unstable. That the two causes for which people are willing to sacrifice themselves for are different, surely cannot matter, can it?

With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf




agirl -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:35:56 PM)

Crumbs, last time I peeked at this thread it was concerning  a rather difficult *anal* situation and now it's about death/suicide.....lol..

Oh the power of the hypothetical.

agirl







Homestead -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:42:00 PM)

This really just started over a dry anal hump? Stop it, I can't laugh that long![:D]



velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: millisande

velvetears,
thank you very much for clarifying.

You're welcome.

*A note before i continue... i am not, in any way, advocating suicide, nor murder... *

i would now like to point out that, almost everything we (the entire non-vanilla community, as a whole) as well as several thing that most "vanilla" people do, all cross lines of legality. For instance, in many places, having sex in any other position than missionary, is illegal.

Can you really compare this to murder?? 

As for the illegality of suicide, well, that differs from country to country. there aremany, many places in this worl where commiting suicide poses no legal quandries whatsoever.

Also, on that note.. illegal, or not, what does it matter? What are the courts gonna do? give them 30 to life? the death sentence?

Yes suicide is legal, i believe in OR. But to do so you have to prove that there is a good reason you are seeking suicided as an option and that you are of sound mind.  Depressives aren't allowed to kill themselves, we try to help them by putting them in places where they cannot do harm to themselves in an attempt to save their lives and change their line of thinking, ie - give then antidepressant drugs etc. 

and, a question...
why do you believe that the willingness to dedicate your life to a cause is an indication of a mental unballence?

Where did i claim this??Are you saying slavery is a "cause" - please clarify.
 
by that some token, anyone who volunteers to join the military, in any of it's forms, is also mentally unstable. That the two causes for which people are willing to sacrifice themselves for are different, surely cannot matter, can it?

It matters a great deal - it's quite noble in fact to sacrifice your life to protect others, as soldiers do.  They don't go onto the battlefield with their hands in the air saying, "kill me i submit myself to your will." They fight for their country and unfortunately some die.

With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf




Hope this clarifies for you my position.



BeingChewsie -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:44:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

This really just started over a dry anal hump? Stop it, I can't laugh that long![:D]


LOLOLOL!!



velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Crumbs, last time I peeked at this thread it was concerning  a rather difficult *anal* situation and now it's about death/suicide.....lol..

Oh the power of the hypothetical.

agirl







You're quite right girl - it's not been fair to the OP - i suggested starting another thread, there is another one about limits.  i apologize to the OP for getting so off course here. 



BeingChewsie -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:47:29 PM)

quote:

yes i believe this is an indication of mental unbalance/illness/sickness etc. 


OK. Just because you believe it doesn't make it so. People believe in unicorns too, I have yet to see one.



velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:51:37 PM)

Unicorns don't exist - slaves that end up dead do - BIG difference



KnightofMists -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:52:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
...........   And its as special to them as it is sick.  
 


Excellent post marie... one of your best I dare say.



ImpGrrl -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:53:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

ImpGrrl

i fail to see the contradiction you see in my first two post sections.


You fail to see the contradiction between "i agree people should decide for themselves how they should live their bdsm relationship. my beliefs, values, ethics and such are just that mine.  Others will have different beliefs, ethisc and values. "

and "Is there never a point as human beings (put aside being dom subs slave etc) that we say this is simply wrong."?

First, you say it's their relationship, their ethics and beliefs.  Then you look for things that are wrong, no matter what.  I see a contradiction.

quote:

If it's your stance to sit by while a suicide/murder takes place go right ahead, it's not mine.


I think that's a strawman argument - nowhere in the thread (until now) did you ask if someone would try to stop it.  The question wasn't "would you jump in and help", it was "should an owner ask this of a slave" (paraphrased).

Now, if you want my answer on whether I'd jump in and help, I'll give it to you -

Absolutely.

I'd talk to the person.  Ask them if they were comfortable with this decision, if they'd consented freely, etc.  I'd give them reasons to reconsider, let them know that there are other options.

If they convinced me that they were serious about it, I'd ask them to please do it without innocent witnesses.  Because honestly, they're adult humans, and I really can't stop anyone who is looking to suicide, if they're really serious about doing it.

So - would I *try* to help?  Absolutely.

quote:

The unmentionnables seem to bother you cause its not "concentual" - well i would argue that a slave who dies on command is really doing it concentually either, you can't argue with the fact that mental/emotional illness does exist can you?


Hence my use of "freely consenting".  Meaning, this person is in a position to legally consent to something - and they do.

quote:

What you mentioned was a ridiculous hypothetical.


I don't recall where *I* introduced any hypotheticals?  I followed some that others introduced...but didn't introduce any myself.

quote:

Would nothing bother you that two consenting adults did together? - wowowow what an openminded individual you are *tips my hat to you for that one*


*Lots* would *bother* me.  But I didn't say "nothing bothers me", I said "it's none of my business".  That's a large difference in meaning. 

quote:

Did you decide SSC was limited to play? Where is this rule written??


I decided nothing.  I interpreted.

quote:

"There are far worse things than death" - And your point is??


My point is that death for/by one's owner isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen to a slave, and it's certainly not a universal limit.

quote:

The only thing we seem to agree on is everyne has limits.


I don't even think we really agree on that, as you are trying to decide what those limits should be - and I'm not.



KnightofMists -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:55:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

....  Take it from me. lol. 


marie you are are on a roll... thank you for another excellent post



agirl -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 2:59:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Crumbs, last time I peeked at this thread it was concerning  a rather difficult *anal* situation and now it's about death/suicide.....lol..

Oh the power of the hypothetical.

agirl







You're quite right girl - it's not been fair to the OP - i suggested starting another thread, there is another one about limits.  i apologize to the OP for getting so off course here. 


 I saw that thread too.... but the moment *no limits* is mentioned there's a whole body of repeated, boring debate that gets hung up on whether you'd murder.

I can understand the debate on it, but it really does get tiresome when  most people know that *no limits* is *situational*. It's within that relationship.

I've watched it being debated into a corner so many times.

There's much about my relationship that *appears* abusive and probably extreme ....I just choose where and when I speak about it, if at all.

I can, personally, say *no* as much as I like....it'll make bugger-all difference to the outcome.

agirl




marieToo -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:05:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
my concern was only when it was taken to the extreme of the slave being killed.  Give me a valid reason why - such as she had a terminal illness and was in so much pain her Master thought it would be in her best interest to end her life rather then suffer, that would perhaps make some sene to me.  But anyone who would die on command is not IN command of their faculties.  It's murder/suicide.  If someone was on the ledge of a building and wanted to jump off, by everyones logic we should just feep on about our business and say oh well it's his business hes an adult and can make his own decisions.  i just can't agree with that reasoning.  i do so much appreciate your taking the time to state your points very well and kindly to me. i truly understand where you are coming from. Don't worry i don't loose sleep over it lol.  It's actually been interesting reading how others feel about this point.


lol...as far as the death thing....well...some bdsmers get alittle lost in fiction, Im afraid.  (Although, I am guilty of not reading the whole thread here, the Story of O comes to mind.)

I didnt mean to project my own personal 'thing' to be synonymous with your thoughts, I only drew from my own stuff to try to make the point.  I was sure you'd not take it the wrong way, as you and I have spoken before and have good chemistry and understanding.  I think you're a smart woman with a good heart.  Thank you for receiving my posts so well.  :)  




marieToo -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:07:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Crumbs, last time I peeked at this thread it was concerning  a rather difficult *anal* situation and now it's about death/suicide.....lol..

Oh the power of the hypothetical.

agirl

actually I dont think it was about the anal as much as it was about slavery and the subsequent views of how everyone perceives it.  Or at least, I think that was the OPs intention.







marieToo -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:11:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
...........   And its as special to them as it is sick.  
 


Excellent post marie... one of your best I dare say.



And that was the LAST serious thing Im gonna say around here.   lol



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