RE: Do slaves have the right to say no?

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (Full Version)

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DiurnalVampire -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:12:37 PM)
Realisticaly, whether you as a slave have the right to say no or not is something that your Master or Mistress tells you up front. If you are brought on and told "Look, you lay out your limits now, becasue anything not covered right this second, you canot object to" then its on you to make sure whatever those limits are are understood. No ifs and or buts. If you say you have NO limits, then you shouldnt expect someone to expect them to come up later. Keeping your property safe is a basic part of being the owner of said property. Broken toys are of no use to anyone. If you want to handle your property roughly, and they knew tis from the get go, then they should be expecting it. How someone handles their slaves is up to them, as long as the slave was made aware of what they were in for in the beginning. If they went into something that serious blind, then maybe thats what they need to experience, and then to walk from, in order to learn what they should be looking for. I dont mean to be cynical, but seriously. If you both go into your arrangements with your eyes open, you shuld already know what to expect. When my boy told me he had no limits but x,y, and z... that was that. Since then, I hve tested everything else and found that he was teling the truth. Those are his only limits, every other one is set by me. If you dont know what your limits are or might be, you should honestly say so. That way the Master or Mistress expects that others may come up along the way. But once you declare yourself to have NONE, then you cant realy expect someone to know when you ahve run acros somehting that needs to be reconsidered or not. My 2 cents. DV

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:13:41 PM)
ImpGrrl, Many wrong assumptions but i am not going to nit pick line by line. It's not just about the subs ethics or beliefs - it's about someone believing misguidedly in what it means to be a slave - giving up ones life just on a Masters command. The most basic human instinct is self preservation, if thats missing something is amiss. i happen to want to not see or be witness to such a tradegedy. Many did say - reread the posts if you have to, not just mine - that what a Master and slave did was between the two of them and no one should intefere. i am glad you feel differenly in the case of suicide/murder. The mentally ill are not legally alowed to consent - for instance if a man has sex with a retarded adult - he can be arrested. Suicide is illegal as is murder - obviously people who try to kill themselves don't get put in jail they get much needed psychological help. Not much different then how one deals with unmentionables. If everyone felt thngs were "none of their business" - chaos would ensue. i never tried to decide anyone's limits - only my opinions about the ramifications of those limits or lack thereoff Can we get back to the original topic the OP started - this is getting tedious, and it's unfair to her - lets agree to disagree and leave it at that :-)

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:28:16 PM)
Well, I've been perusing this post. As far as anyone having to kill themself to prove anything to their Master - gosh that just laughable to me. It's a big, fat double No (no,No,noNo,no)! If anyone else wants to do this, I am not going to stop them. Unless of course they tell me about it first - then yes, of course I'd try and stop them . That's my personal value system talking, though - and it is personal, I'll admit. But so what? You wanna kill yourself to "please" your Master? Don't tell me about it - 'cause if you do - I'll probably try to talk you out of it, plus call police (suicide is against the law, and, unfathomable as this seems, you can be arrested in some places if for no other reason than to prevent you from doing it) - and I'd phone the nearest mental health facility so you can visit and try to see yourslef as "worthy and devoted" enough to go on living. My personal view is that nobody has an "obligation" to kill themself to "please" anyone. Is this "judgemental" on my part. Yes. Oh well, though...Arguing whether this is "true" or "false", even from a philosophical perpective, strikes me as a waste of time. It's a "personal" decision for people - you wanna do it? You're gonna do what you're gonna do, I guess - just don't let me know. Because I'd feel a definite obligation to try to stop you from doing it. It is interesting to see what other people think, though. Is this interfering with someone's personal bdsm decision-making "area"? Yes. Obviously, I don't care if it is. I'd do it anyway. Surmise whatever you desire from that statement. P.S. Please nobody pick on velvet. She is just stating her views, and everyone has a right to state ther viewpoint. If someone doesn't agree with it, fine. Picking it apart with an attitude isn't going to change anyone else's viewpoint. It's probably just going to succeed in ticking them off. - Susan

ImpGrrl -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO P.S. Please nobody pick on velvet. She is just stating her views, and everyone has a right to state ther viewpoint. If someone doesn't agree with it, fine. Picking it apart with an attitude isn't going to change anyone else's viewpoint. It's probably just going to succeed in ticking them off. This is a discussion forum - most of us come here to discuss. If we don't agree with one another, we discuss it - maybe even debate it.

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:41:47 PM)
I agree. Okay, debate to your heart's content. Everyone has different views. Realizing that you're not obligated, nor is it possible, to always change another's point of view is smart debating. Realizing when another's opinion is not going to change (if it's important that someone believe as you do, which it's not, so it's kind of silly you're even "debating" that to begin with, I think) is a judgment call. Of course that's my point of view. Debate that, as well as my "right" to hold that opinion - if you desire. - Susan

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:43:11 PM)
Susan, Thanks for the support, very sweet of you. i am glad you would feel some moral/ethical obligation to intervene - if you were aware of the situation. Thats really all i was saying in a nutshell that i would also do. i have this idea that people see me with some wondersub cape on appointing myself suicidal slave police or something lol..... i don't mind a debate with opposing opinions - it can be enlightening. i take offense when people resort to insults and jabs. It's not necessary and uncalled for between adults.

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 3:59:04 PM)
velvettears: Well, I do, too. It's not "debating" then. You can't "debate" whether someone's personal value system is "ethical" or not, a lot of the time, I don't think, really - as people hold their ethics for many personal, sometimes emotionally-charged reasons. I mean, I think someone can point out their own viewpoint, and that's about it. I don't see anything wrong with people doing that - because everyone has different views. Maybe some people learn something new, or a new perspective, possibly, from reading other people's points of view. As far as "morals and ethics" go - I doubt people change their viewpoint that often, because they are so personal and developed for such personal reasons to begin with. - Susan

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 4:27:36 PM)
Susan would you say there are personal ethics/morals/values as well as universal ones? i mean a sociopath is functioning on little to no conscience in dealing with people, his personal ethics/values/morals are definately going to be different then the norm. But generally there are accepted actions or behaviors that are right or wrong, that cross every cultural boundary line there is - murder is one, suicide, incest is another. All these are in place to keep the human species going, instincts so we don't become extinct. It troubles me when people want to deny their basic "humaness" in order to fit in. It's taboo to censure anything bdsm - if you do you're scoffed at. BS. i am a human being first - part of a sub culture second.

WhiplashGirlChld -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 4:31:32 PM)
I find this whole line of questions silly - like we have forgotten that we are assuming roles here. Since slavery is illegal in just about anyplace we are posting from, all "slavery" much of us have any contact with is actually consentual servitude. The slave and the master have the right to come to any agreement they wish. There is really no right or wrong here - just what two or more people agree to do.

MrrPete -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 4:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead That's pretty much it, the inexorable potency and reality of the total loss of control to another's will. We manage this in different ways. I simply choose to practice it in ways that do minimal damage. It's a selfish thing, I want my property to be well adjusted and functional. I want the value and useablity to increase. What others do it up to them. Thanks Homestead for expressing how I feel. My slave is my property and I want her service. [not just sexually either] Therefore if something I'm doing to her causes a problem I want to know what it is before I continue if at all.

Homestead -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 5:04:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrrPete quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead That's pretty much it, the inexorable potency and reality of the total loss of control to another's will. We manage this in different ways. I simply choose to practice it in ways that do minimal damage. It's a selfish thing, I want my property to be well adjusted and functional. I want the value and useablity to increase. What others do it up to them. Thanks Homestead for expressing how I feel. My slave is my property and I want her service. [not just sexually either] Therefore if something I'm doing to her causes a problem I want to know what it is before I continue if at all. Being insensitive and an ass, just to prove one has 'Power" pretty much shows that a person don't understand it's uses. And that perhaps, it should be taken back.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 5:16:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO P.S. Please nobody pick on velvet. She is just stating her views, and everyone has a right to state ther viewpoint. If someone doesn't agree with it, fine. Picking it apart with an attitude isn't going to change anyone else's viewpoint. It's probably just going to succeed in ticking them off. - Susan And when she out of the blue declared I must be mentally ill, and that I was grandstanding...where was your "please don't pick on ownedgirlie?!" Hmm?! [;)] It's interesting how this all panned out. I simply said some slaves would die for their owners. I never said anything about murder. There can be many reasons to die for an owner. Velvetears later pointed it out herself. However, those qualifiers were never considered before she jumped on the "any slave who does this is mentally imbalanced" train. It boils down to crucifying someone before thinking, or dare I say - - asking them about it. My statement was interpreted as some casual whim a Master decided to come up with one day, thinking his slave should be dead. Where in my posts did I say that? What if the slave's child needed a serious organ transplant and the only one available was hers? What if the Master agreed in the nobility of sacraficing her life for her childs and allowed her request to do so? The point is, the gun was WAY jumped without discussion, and opinions were thrown around like facts. Anyone who does this should not become shocked when disagreed with. It wasn't picking on her, it was discussing flaws in her statements.

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:13:35 PM)
velvettears: I agree with you. I think there are ethical and moral "no no"s that cross every cultural boundary line, just as you mentioned, and suicide in Western culture is in some places on the "debating table" (as far as debating or doing euthanasia, etc.) and in most murder is definitely considerd wrong. I just meant that people as individuals tend to hold views that may have been developed over a long period of time, and that's why they don't change overnight. Reading a thread might get them to re-consider something, but then they go back to their everyday lives, and that reality has more of an impact, I believe, many times, than anything they're ever going to read on-line (of course, if they are seeking out information on a particular topic for research reasons, perhaps that's sometimes not the case). I was just mentioning it because people getting hot and bothered and pointing our "flaws" in other people's thinking, etc - the rude things you mentioned, I do see happen on-line, and I always wonder how much the person doing it really believes it's going to change the mind of ther person they are "discussing" things with, since it's obvious the other person already holds tightly a very particular veiwpoint - and you're absolutely right - they're never going to have a prayer of influencing that POV if they get emotionally invested and rude or hostile to make their point. This observation is not aimed at you dear - truly it's not. It's just a general thought of mine. As far as "discussion" proving anyone's viewpoint is the "most sensible" or the "best"' - I think that's pretty much a lost cause, since everyone has a right to their own to begin with - which does make me wonder why some seem intent on proving others are "wrong", and they are "right". I believe (as I know some others do as well, not that' it's either here or there) that people can have a discussion without making it a win-lose scenario, I think - although apparently this thought does not frequently cross some people's minds. I see what you say as completely reasonable, and I've not seen you treat anyone with disrespect. Some people are just intent on getting others to agree with them - as if it's a crime for anyone to have truly thought a topic through, and still hold an opposing view - which it's not, that's ridiculous. My remark wasn't aimed at you - it was more or less a reaction to last night and I do see people argue and get hostile sometimes, in the name of "discussion" on-line. It's too bad, and a waste of time. It wasn't saying you do that - I was agreeing with you - I do see this happen, and it's a shame, because then communication stalls, and people start focussing on the other person's personality sometimes, and the whole discussion just goes downhill, and the OP, and the point or question they had, is sometimes forgetten altogether (I think we both saw that happen last night on the thread about Traniers being liars, or whatever. And thanks again for sticking up for me then, I appreciated it.) - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:19:41 PM)
ownedgirlie: I didn't read this entire thread through - I can hardly remember now what anyone said to anyone else. You know I love you, too - ownedgirlie (don't you? Hope so). Somebody was really rude to me last night on another thread (which rarely happens, but it did). velvettears really stood up for me, and I appreciated it. I think she's really got a good heart, and this other person was not being nice - at all. I think you have a good heart too, owendgirlie, you know I think that. I just think people mis-interpret eachother sometimes, and not on purpose, either. Maybe she thinks suicide is wrong - if she does - she does have a right to believe that - some people say they would die for their Masters. I think that level of devotion is awesome in theory, but I am not sure if suicide to please a Master is something I could do (probably not). It doesn't make anyone else's viewpoint "wrong" or "right" - it simply means I'd never do it. People argue all the time on these forums and sometimes it can get hostile. Because everybody's got a different personality, I suppose. Also, submissives especially(my view) tend to be emotionally tuned in to what ther people might be expecting of them, I think, and sometimes this can rear it's head and turn against them if they feel hurt because somebody disagrees with their POV. Of course this happens to Dominants, too (peple are people, I think). It's going to continue to happen I'm sure but it can be painful to be involved in and watch - everybody already knows this, too. But - anyway - you're not mentally imbalanced. But - if you call me up and tell me, or e-mail me, and tell me your Master wants you to throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle tommorrow - you bet 'd try to stop you. Because I'd miss you, owned girlie - selfish as that sounds for a reason. HUGs.[:)] - Susan

ownedgirlie -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:22:20 PM)
No worries, Susan, I said my comment in jest, and tried to delete it later so as not to rehash, but CM wouldn't let me. Nothing said here has been painful for me...no worries.

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:23:16 PM)
i never declared you mentaly ill ever ownedgirlie, perhaps you misread a post. "There are slaves who would find it amusing and/or offensive that anyone else would assume what their limits are. They would gladly give up their lives for their Masters, without a second thought." - that was in your original post. This is very different then saying, "I simply said some slaves would die for their owners." There was nothing in the original plost about a sick child needing organ translpant etc. In my later posts i tried to make some sense out of all this and suggested any rational reason i could find that a slave would want to die for their Master. my intention wasn't to crucify you - sorry you felt that way. And who said i was shocked? The only thing i felt guilty about was changing the intended nature of the thread.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:27:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears i never declared you mentaly ill ever ownedgirlie, perhaps you misread a post. You declared it of anyone who would die for their Masters. Go back and reread. quote: There was nothing in the original plost about a sick child needing organ translpant etc. That was exactly my point. I did not suggest any reasons why it could happen, yet the worst was assumed. quote: The only thing i felt guilty about was changing the intended nature of the thread. And yet we continue to. So let's end it now, eh?

SusanofO -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:29:02 PM)
ownedgirlie: Good. velvettears: I love you, too. Group HUG? hehe[:)][:D] -Susan

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:30:33 PM)
Susan, i didn't think your remark was aimed at me i was just wondering how you felt about universal ethics/morals/values and wanted your opinion :-)

velvetears -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/4/2006 6:33:43 PM)
i understand where the hostility is coming from. You took it personally what i said in generalities - sorry your feelings were hurt. i agree let's let it go.

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