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[Poll]

Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub?


i am a sub/slave and was abused in the past.
  33% (33)
i am a sub/slave that was NOT abused in the past
  51% (51)
I am an Owner who's slave/sub was abused in the past
  5% (5)
I am an Owner who's slave/sub was NOT abused in the past
  10% (10)


Total Votes : 99
(last vote on : 7/4/2010 2:51:11 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:48:15 AM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline 		i have heard conjecture that slaves and subs often come into the lifestyle because they are "broken" by past abuse and seek it out because of the control and structure, as well as the parts of it that would have been labeled as abuse at one time in her/his life. Theories that i have heard say that they do this because it gives them some kind of control and choice over a situation where they had no choice in the past.


i will admit to the structure and control part. i don't know that the second part is true.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:52:11 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Your theory is just wrong headed and shows that you have little understanding of what makes many submissives tick, which has nothing to do with being treated poorly. My dom doesn't treat me badly ever. I do not know where people get the idea that all doms structure a submissive's life, mine doesn't. I have structured my own life for 20 years now (since  I was 18), and I will continue to do so.... He doesn't have to structure me, I am plenty disciplined on my own

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedandcollared)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:54:19 AM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Your theory is just wrong headed and shows that you have little understanding of what makes many submissives tick, which has nothing to do with being treated poorly. My dom doesn't treat me badly ever. I do not know where people get the idea that all doms structure a submissive's life, mine doesn't. I have structured my own life for 20 years now (since  I was 18), and I will continue to do so.... He doesn't have to structure me, I am plenty disciplined on my own



i never said it was my theory. It was a theory that i have heard, and like all theories, it needed to be tested.

and i am self-disciplined, but not self-structured.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:55:22 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I think it is pretty obvious that there is a high percentage of people in BDSM that have had some type of abuse in the past. I don't think it is necessarily just subs. There are probably many Doms that have some abuse in their past as well. The theories as to why they gravitate to BDSM sound plausible, but I couldn't say for sure.


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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:57:56 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Your theory is just wrong headed and shows that you have little understanding of what makes many submissives tick, which has nothing to do with being treated poorly. My dom doesn't treat me badly ever. I do not know where people get the idea that all doms structure a submissive's life, mine doesn't. I have structured my own life for 20 years now (since  I was 18), and I will continue to do so.... He doesn't have to structure me, I am plenty disciplined on my own


Well, I guess you speak for everyone don't you?

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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 11:59:46 AM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		i have only a short reply to this one.  It's an idea i've given a great amount of in the past, and have come to a conclusion, for myself, that works.  Yes, i was abused (not sexually, but emotionally and mentally), but it had nothing to do about my submissiveness.  If anything it made it more difficult to accept being a sub.  i learned to be a strong woman, one who can stand on my own feet and who's "there" for others.  my determination not to repeat the history with which i was raised probably got in the way, for a long time.  i like to think i've come out the other side by now...

huggles
jimmini

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:01:42 PM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline 		I took the word 'abused' to mean pretty serious physical injury on a regular basis.  My mother has a few anger issues to go along with some other not so pleasant mental/emotional things, but I don't know that I would say I was abused.  Maybe I didn't have the most functional family ever, but I don't think it was that bad.
 
So I'm going to say I'm a sub who hasn't been abused.
 
zuma

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:01:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Your theory is just wrong headed and shows that you have little understanding of what makes many submissives tick, which has nothing to do with being treated poorly. My dom doesn't treat me badly ever. I do not know where people get the idea that all doms structure a submissive's life, mine doesn't. I have structured my own life for 20 years now (since  I was 18), and I will continue to do so.... He doesn't have to structure me, I am plenty disciplined on my own


Well, I guess you speak for everyone don't you?


Yes I speak for me, who else would I be speaking for?

Lots of vanillas have been abused too, maybe they are vanilla because they were abused?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:03:22 PM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline 		there is no reason to argue or be upset.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:08:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Im not upset, I am stating an opinion that differs from you. I have not been unreasonable, or cussed, or capped my post. I have not called a name. If you knew how many times submissives have been "told" they are submissives because we are in some way "damaged", that just isn't true of me at least. I had two parents that loved me, no abuse by either... I am not saying that some people were not abused, but many of us were not. Four out of 10 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, 3 out of 10 before the age of 18... a lot of people have been damaged this way and I do not think that this explains why we are into Ds.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedandcollared)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:12:13 PM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Im not upset, I am stating an opinion that differs from you. I have not been unreasonable, or cussed, or capped my post. I have not called a name. If you knew how many times submissives have been "told" they are submissives because we are in some way "damaged", that just isn't true of me at least. I had two parents that loved me, no abuse by either... I am not saying that some people were not abused, but many of us were not. Four out of 10 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, 3 out of 10 before the age of 18... a lot of people have been damaged this way and I do not think that this explains why we are into Ds.


The statistic i am familiar with from my college thesis is that one in four girls is sexually abused by 18, one in eight boys are.

i merely thought that its possible its a reason for some. i wanted to see if there was truth to this. i was abused. i know most of the reasons for choosing this path, but i will own that it is possible to be that way. it always behooves people to learn, and to be knowledgeable of different theories circulating.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:17:14 PM   
mp072004


Posts: 381
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		I've heard that I owe my dominant and sadistic behaviors to a history of abuse, too. Abuse generally can't be the cause of both dominance and submission! Further, there are more people who have been treated badly than there are who do BDSM, and moreover, as ownedandcollared specified "slaves" and "subs," there are more abused people than there are people in BDSM who like relationships and situations where they cede control.

Now, ownedandcollared, your last sentence suggests that people do things to replay a past traumatic event, to desensitize themselves to it--to render it benign or less powerful to them. This can be useful, even cathartic. If you could nail down any particular group for it, it's probably people who do rape fantasy, and, to a lesser degree, humiliation--not power people in general.

Monica

(in reply to krikket)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:19:24 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedandcollared

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Im not upset, I am stating an opinion that differs from you. I have not been unreasonable, or cussed, or capped my post. I have not called a name. If you knew how many times submissives have been "told" they are submissives because we are in some way "damaged", that just isn't true of me at least. I had two parents that loved me, no abuse by either... I am not saying that some people were not abused, but many of us were not. Four out of 10 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, 3 out of 10 before the age of 18... a lot of people have been damaged this way and I do not think that this explains why we are into Ds.


The statistic i am familiar with from my college thesis is that one in four girls is sexually abused by 18, one in eight boys are.

i merely thought that its possible its a reason for some. i wanted to see if there was truth to this. i was abused. i know most of the reasons for choosing this path, but i will own that it is possible to be that way. it always behooves people to learn, and to be knowledgeable of different theories circulating.


It is funny how the people who scream the loudest about tolerance, don't seem to have much of it in reality. They don't want to hear a different view. The fact that you were abused doesn't matter. If it doesn't match what they believe, it isn't valid. I appreciate your asking questions and seeking answers. I don't feel threatened by it. Keep it up.

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(in reply to ownedandcollared)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:21:47 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Reposted:

There's always the question of whether people in ds actually experience sexual abuse more than other social groups OR whether they are just more willing to talk about it as this is an alternate lifestyle social group, OR whether certain orientations somehow lead to people being vulnerable and more likely to experience abuse even at a very young age.  Until we really have a clear answer to that, we really can't discuss a correllation or causation with much certainty.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_565279/tm.htm
Ds innate or learned?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_299233/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#299318
BDSM and Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_475351/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#475351
Did childhood abuse cause you to be a dominant?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_475077/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#475077
Are you submissive because of abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_299539/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#299539
Do past issues make bdsm easier?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_281017/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#281017
Going from abuse to conscious slavery?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_204258/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#204258
bdsm and abuse survivors

http://www.collarchat.com/m_124139/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#124139
sub role and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_78189/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#78189
when I was a child...




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(in reply to ownedandcollared)
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RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:23:24 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		PS you also only mention THREE orientation possibilities in your poll.  There is a theory that the majority of people in the scene are switches and/or tops/bottoms.  The make up of people in the scene is made up a lot more than just owners, subs and slaves.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:23:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Please point out where I seem threatened?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:28:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Reposted:

There's always the question of whether people in ds actually experience sexual abuse more than other social groups OR whether they are just more willing to talk about it as this is an alternate lifestyle social group, OR whether certain orientations somehow lead to people being vulnerable and more likely to experience abuse even at a very young age.  Until we really have a clear answer to that, we really can't discuss a correllation or causation with much certainty.






Thanks LA for pointing that out, and the links.

There is a huge body of evidence accumulating that certain personality traits are indeed genetic, and scientists are beginning to theorize that many of our attributes are predisposed with nurture playing just one more factor. I do not see why being dominant or submissive in personality would be different than being a depressive or an optimist by nature.... but that is still not determined either




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:32:32 PM   
babygirl005


Posts: 146
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Please point out where I seem threatened?


Which thread should I start with? owned andcollared was asking a question which pertained to her experience. The fact that it doesn't match your experience doesn't make her wrongheaded or lacking understanding of a sub's experience, or mean that you can speak for all subs/slaves And since you weren't abused, she isn't speaking for you. I wasn't abused either, but I sure have seen evidence that makes me feel that there may be something to what she says. At the very least, it is an interesting topic for discussion.
Estring

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:38:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		She did not state that in her opening post, so I was assuming that the "broken" thing was about submissives to the general and not a specific case... most submissives I have seen here and elsewhere do not seem "broken" to me, and in fact I think that it takes a strong person to consensually submit, not a weak one.. in my opinion it IS wrongheaded to think that being submissive=broken... I have read this assumption more than once. I did not look at the orientation of the poster before I responded, I based my reply on the information in the OP, nor did I assume it was about the OP.. it is about a "theory"..

Not long ago people into WIITWD were considered mentally deranged, deviant, and in need of psychiatric intervention. I do not like the word "broken" to describe my orientation...You may differ babygirl/estring... that is what forums are for.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/2/2006 12:40:02 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to babygirl005)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Is abuse a precurser for being a slave/sub? - 9/2/2006 12:43:20 PM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mp072004

I've heard that I owe my dominant and sadistic behaviors to a history of abuse, too. Abuse generally can't be the cause of both dominance and submission! Further, there are more people who have been treated badly than there are who do BDSM, and moreover, as ownedandcollared specified "slaves" and "subs," there are more abused people than there are people in BDSM who like relationships and situations where they cede control.

Now, ownedandcollared, your last sentence suggests that people do things to replay a past traumatic event, to desensitize themselves to it--to render it benign or less powerful to them. This can be useful, even cathartic. If you could nail down any particular group for it, it's probably people who do rape fantasy, and, to a lesser degree, humiliation--not power people in general.

Monica


You are absolutely right regarding dominance and abuse. i would think it would be something like a hitler complex (if you will please forgive the referance), that you "abuse" or rather control, before someone can do it to you. And you are right about the rape fantasy people--there are ALOT of people who do that. It was always something i found when i was younger. prospective Owners would ask if i had been sexually abused, and then take a keen interest in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
PS you also only mention THREE orientation possibilities in your poll.  There is a theory that the majority of people in the scene are switches and/or tops/bottoms.  The make up of people in the scene is made up a lot more than just owners, subs and slaves.


You are right as well. i actually do not see much difference between top/bottom and Dom/sub. i was , however, taught to have something of a casual disregard of those who label themselves "switches" because they don't know themselves well enough to know who they are. i don't wish to offend, am just explaining. Now, of course, in different situations, we are different people. At work, you can be full of piss and vinegar, and at home, be prim and proper and obedient. That is the complexity of the human nature. However, in similar situations, i (and my Owner) feel that you should be decisive and know who you are.

thank you


edit was to make the quote go in the quote box

< Message edited by ownedandcollared -- 9/2/2006 12:49:46 PM >

(in reply to mp072004)
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