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Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 10:30:41 PM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The following are the death tolls in the war against terror, starting with the Operation to free the hostages taken in the American embassy in Tehran, Iran in 1979.
 
Always remember that Freedom Isnt Free.

Operation Desert 1(1979)- 8
Beirut Embassy Bombing(1983)- 17
Kuwiat Embassy Bombing(1983)- 6
Beirut Barracks Bombing(1983)-  241
Beirut Embassy Annex Bombing(1984)- 24
Hezbollah hijacking of Kuwait airline flght 221(1984)- 2 US citizens killed
Hezbollah hijacking of TWA flight 847(1985)- 1 US sailor killed
Cruise ship Achille  Lauro hijacking(1985- 1 American killed
Rome/Vienna Airport bombings(1986)- 5 Americans killed
West Berlin Discotheque Bombing(1986)- 2 US Soldiers killed
Beirut shootings(1986)- 3 Americans killed
TWA Flight 840(1986)- 4 Americans killed
Pan AM Flight 103(1988)- 270
World Trade Center Bombing(1993)- 6
US Military HQ in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia(1995)- 5
Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia(1996)- 19 US troops killed
US Embassies in Africa bombings(1998)- 224
USS Cole(2000)- 17
September 11, 2001- 3,339
American Consulate in Pakistan bombed(2002)- 12
Riyadh, SA housing complex bombings(2003)- 8
2004 Terror attacks in Saudi Arabia- 8
Amman, Jordan Hotel bombings(2005)- 57
September 11, 2001- 3,339
Operation Enduring Freedom- 301
Operation Iraqi Freedom- 2,667
 
Total killed in War on Terror by the terrorists since 1979- 7,247.

This is our war. This is for our survival. It did not start on 9-11. It started decades ago. Wake up.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 10:32:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Yeah, how did our oil get under their land? What's up with that?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 10:34:56 PM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what that question has to do with my post

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 10:52:53 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		The war started long long ago under European colonialism when the colonial powers divided the region among them. Then came the Balfour Declaration which  gave the Jews the right of return to the Holy Land after WWII because no one in Europe wanted to deal with the refugee problem.

Then came the age of the automobile and the rise of petroleum interests... we would not give a rat's ass about the region if it were not for our interests, primarily oil interests. They did not come here and mess with our natural resources and overthrow democratic governments (such as in Iran before the Shah was installed), we have our butts parked on their soil.... so who started what?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 11:10:58 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		If this is the war on terror then the UK along with the USA started it way back when they originally overthrew the Iranian national government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/8/2006 11:16:18 PM >

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/8/2006 11:31:48 PM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		First I have to believe it is the war against terror. Who the terrorists are. Who is dying, terrorists, civilians, soldiers. And who the hell are the soldiers when you have figured out all the rest of the BS!

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:02:42 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I am Jewish, the balfour declaration was the result of over a century of tireless work by great men such as Theodore Herzl whose vision enabled the Jews to return to their home. Dont use that as an excuse. 
Yes we did help with the overthrow of the Shah. But that does not excuse the 7,000+ deaths caused by the terrorists, they only care about the destruction of the free world. not because of our meddling but because freedom, liberty, and democracy are the complete opposites of what the powers that be over there want.  They lose their control, they lose their power when the citizens start thinking about equality, and freedom.  That is why they are trying to destroy us.  Stop turning America in the bad guy. it is OUR COUNTRY. have some NATIONAL PRIDE and PATRIOTSM, i'm not saying agree with every word the government says. I am saying stop looking for reasons to blame our country for the actions of evil men.

(in reply to Kedicat)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:04:06 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

First I have to believe it is the war against terror. Who the terrorists are. Who is dying, terrorists, civilians, soldiers. And who the hell are the soldiers when you have figured out all the rest of the BS!

Who the terrorists are? Well here is a start:
Hizbollah
Hamas
Al-Qaeda
Islamic Jihad
PFLP
the Palstinian Authority
Iran
Syria
Lebanon

Need any more?

(in reply to Kedicat)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:08:42 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe the terrorist have nothing but disdain for freedom because the west has consistently denied them freedom by willfully meddling in their countries.

The Balfour agreement also said, that in the new states created, everyone should be equal regardless of ethnic background and religion. That has clearly not happened so the Balfour agreement wasn't put into action.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:11:31 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Maybe the terrorist have nothing but disdain for freedom because the west has consistently denied them freedom by willfully meddling in their countries.

The Balfour agreement also said, that in the new states created, everyone should be equal regardless of ethnic background and religion. That has clearly not happened so the Balfour agreement wasn't put into action.


Yep

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:16:25 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

The following are the death tolls in the war against terror, starting with the Operation to free the hostages taken in the American embassy in Tehran, Iran in 1979.
 
Always remember that Freedom Isnt Free.

Operation Desert 1(1979)- 8
Beirut Embassy Bombing(1983)- 17
Kuwiat Embassy Bombing(1983)- 6
Beirut Barracks Bombing(1983)-  241
Beirut Embassy Annex Bombing(1984)- 24
Hezbollah hijacking of Kuwait airline flght 221(1984)- 2 US citizens killed
Hezbollah hijacking of TWA flight 847(1985)- 1 US sailor killed
Cruise ship Achille  Lauro hijacking(1985- 1 American killed
Rome/Vienna Airport bombings(1986)- 5 Americans killed
West Berlin Discotheque Bombing(1986)- 2 US Soldiers killed
Beirut shootings(1986)- 3 Americans killed
TWA Flight 840(1986)- 4 Americans killed
Pan AM Flight 103(1988)- 270
World Trade Center Bombing(1993)- 6
US Military HQ in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia(1995)- 5
Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia(1996)- 19 US troops killed
US Embassies in Africa bombings(1998)- 224
USS Cole(2000)- 17
September 11, 2001- 3,339
American Consulate in Pakistan bombed(2002)- 12
Riyadh, SA housing complex bombings(2003)- 8
2004 Terror attacks in Saudi Arabia- 8
Amman, Jordan Hotel bombings(2005)- 57
September 11, 2001- 3,339
Operation Enduring Freedom- 301
Operation Iraqi Freedom- 2,667
 
Total killed in War on Terror by the terrorists since 1979- 7,247.

This is our war. This is for our survival. It did not start on 9-11. It started decades ago. Wake up.


There are so many thousands left off this list.
But of course when the west decides to topple elected governments, destroy economies, fund and train death squads. It is all for the good of the victims. Only the west knows what is good for other countries.
It's all just collateral damage then. Not dead men, women and children and shattered societies. Whole countries kept in states of chaos or taken over by ruthless dictators of the approved kind.
Your concepts of good and evil are off the WalMart shelf, advertised on FOX.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:18:37 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Are you going to blame Israel for that? I sure hope not.  Most of the 'human rights violations' caused by Israel were in direct response to terror attacks.  A country has to defend it's people. Governments are OBLIGATED to defend their people.  One of the most commonly cited 'violations' is that Israel security forces stop ambulances at checkpoints, even ones with their lights on. They didnt always do that. They started that when bombs started being placed on ambulances to get them past check points. The fence was built to keep out terrorists, and it's worked.
From 1948(the war of idenpendence) though 1967(the six day war) Jordan occupied the Old City in Jerusalem, in that time not one jew was allowed to pray at the western wall.  But since the liberation of the Old City in 1967 countless muslims have been allowed to pray at the dome of the rock....yet you somehow believe that Israel is much more repressive of Islam then the Arabs are of Judaism.  You dont see Jews paving roads with Arabs tombstones, though I seem to recall the Jordanians doing that.  I havent heard of any incident with Jews burning Korans, yet on Rosh Hashanah in 2000 I remember waking up and seeing on the news arabs dancing with a burning Torah Scroll. Israel does not desecrate muslim holy sits, yet the tomb of Rachel, one of our holiest sites was almost destroyed by an Arab mob.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:21:00 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Are you going to blame Israel for that? I sure hope not.  Most of the 'human rights violations' caused by Israel were in direct response to terror attacks.  A country has to defend it's people. Governments are OBLIGATED to defend their people.  One of the most commonly cited 'violations' is that Israel security forces stop ambulances at checkpoints, even ones with their lights on. They didnt always do that. They started that when bombs started being placed on ambulances to get them past check points. The fence was built to keep out terrorists, and it's worked.
From 1948(the war of idenpendence) though 1967(the six day war) Jordan occupied the Old City in Jerusalem, in that time not one jew was allowed to pray at the western wall.  But since the liberation of the Old City in 1967 countless muslims have been allowed to pray at the dome of the rock....yet you somehow believe that Israel is much more repressive of Islam then the Arabs are of Judaism.  You dont see Jews paving roads with Arabs tombstones, though I seem to recall the Jordanians doing that.  I havent heard of any incident with Jews burning Korans, yet on Rosh Hashanah in 2000 I remember waking up and seeing on the news arabs dancing with a burning Torah Scroll. Israel does not desecrate muslim holy sits, yet the tomb of Rachel, one of our holiest sites was almost destroyed by an Arab mob.


Read some real news and history. Are you being paid by someone to spout this? Governments are obligated to defend their people you say? So then the people and governments who's countries were given away to Israel are doing just that. Write them a letter of support. If the UN and some other countries decided to give all of north america back in full to the native peoples, would you happily move out?


< Message edited by Kedicat -- 9/9/2006 12:24:07 AM >

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:22:20 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I willingly admit to and dont defend many of the mistakes we made.  However, as I have heard from the liberal left so many times, two wrongs dont make a right(usually in response to Israel killing terrorist leaders) the case is true here as well.  What we did is no excuse to kill innocent women and children. I posed that list not to start a bitch session, but to wake everyone up to the fact that terror is not a new threat, and it is not just Israel's problem....look at that list- 3 incidents in Beirut, 2 more by Hizbollah.  Yet we want Israel to make peace with Hizbollah? they are our enemies too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

The following are the death tolls in the war against terror, starting with the Operation to free the hostages taken in the American embassy in Tehran, Iran in 1979.
 
Always remember that Freedom Isnt Free.

Operation Desert 1(1979)- 8
Beirut Embassy Bombing(1983)- 17
Kuwiat Embassy Bombing(1983)- 6
Beirut Barracks Bombing(1983)-  241
Beirut Embassy Annex Bombing(1984)- 24
Hezbollah hijacking of Kuwait airline flght 221(1984)- 2 US citizens killed
Hezbollah hijacking of TWA flight 847(1985)- 1 US sailor killed
Cruise ship Achille  Lauro hijacking(1985- 1 American killed
Rome/Vienna Airport bombings(1986)- 5 Americans killed
West Berlin Discotheque Bombing(1986)- 2 US Soldiers killed
Beirut shootings(1986)- 3 Americans killed
TWA Flight 840(1986)- 4 Americans killed
Pan AM Flight 103(1988)- 270
World Trade Center Bombing(1993)- 6
US Military HQ in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia(1995)- 5
Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia(1996)- 19 US troops killed
US Embassies in Africa bombings(1998)- 224
USS Cole(2000)- 17
September 11, 2001- 3,339
American Consulate in Pakistan bombed(2002)- 12
Riyadh, SA housing complex bombings(2003)- 8
2004 Terror attacks in Saudi Arabia- 8
Amman, Jordan Hotel bombings(2005)- 57
September 11, 2001- 3,339
Operation Enduring Freedom- 301
Operation Iraqi Freedom- 2,667
 
Total killed in War on Terror by the terrorists since 1979- 7,247.

This is our war. This is for our survival. It did not start on 9-11. It started decades ago. Wake up.


There are so many thousands left off this list.
But of course when the west decides to topple elected governments, destroy economies, fund and train death squads. It is all for the good of the victims. Only the west knows what is good for other countries.
It's all just collateral damage then. Not dead men, women and children and shattered societies. Whole countries kept in states of chaos or taken over by ruthless dictators of the approved kind.
Your concepts of good and evil are off the WalMart shelf, advertised on FOX.


(in reply to Kedicat)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:26:55 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Agree completely with Kedicat. What exactly is this war on terror? Who are the terrorists? I know the common line is they are the "Islamo-fascists" but has anyone ever told us who these people are and explained why they are a threat?

It is all propaganda - just vague terms designed to prey on people's fears and insecurities.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:27:21 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline
Read some real news and history. Are you being paid by someone to spout this?

[/quote]


do some research, look at the pictures of the roads paved with tombstones.  Find me one Jew who prayed at the western wall between 1948-1967. Go ahead. I'm sure I can find arabs who prayed at the dome of the Rock.  And that image of the burning scroll...I saw it on CNN(your 'true' source for news) I also have seen first hand photos of the tomb of Rachel, it's almost unrecognizable anymore.  The ambulances are FACT. the fence is FACT. my 7 year old cousin was killed on a schoolbus riding to school by an Arab bomb. my best friend was blown up in a Sbarros.  Yet Israel is the evil group right?

(in reply to Kedicat)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:28:55 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		read this: http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jerusalem-gms.htm

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:32:11 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Can someone please explain how a thread "freedom isn't free" about the war on terror (whatever that is) is turned around to Israel?

Intsead of disguising what you really wanted to talk about you should have been honest at the start and just asked people their views on Israel.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:33:57 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I didnt want to start a session on either, as I posted earlier, I was simply trying to help people to recognize that our country has been under attack for decades. I did not intend at the begining to even mention Israel, until the Balfour declaration was brought up as a reason for the terrorists to hate us.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 12:46:08 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		In that case I think you have misunderstood what was being said. The point was/is that the problems in the Middle East are partly a result of European imperialism. I doubt anyone was saying that the Balfour declaration = terrorists hate the US.

Also, when you include the phrase "Operation Iraqi Freedom" I think it's fair to say people will question this and thus fair to expect a session to develop.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 20
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