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RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:11:06 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

Personally, speaking form the perspective of ANY relationship, I fail to see how anyone could be happy to be sneaking around doing things that they feel they must keep from their partner. Relationships are 2-way, they are not just one. If both can not, or will not give their all to make it work, and do so honestly...then the relationship is doomed from the start.

Yes relationships are two way...if a sub says yes she does want to pursue what was started and understands that all she need do is ask / tell that she wants to pursue others then perhaps it is not the relationship that she wants to pursue but a collection of sensations / experiences / sessions.

Perhaps the image of the play is bigger than the person she plays with?

Then it might be manipulation of events / people to get what she wants to feed the desires?

Might it be a means of revenge for having been manipulated in past relationships?

Might it be the current attention at this moment might be stronger than the one previously...hours ago?

Might it be an attention span deficit?

Ross

(in reply to Tikkiee)

Post #: 41

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:13:24 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

I can't think that the person is submissive if he/she is always trying to get away with something. I agree with Tikkee...it's a two way street. How can it work if one is always trying to trick the other? No matter which one (dom or sub) it is.

Perhaps the term should be bottom then?

Tricking not necessarily but rather just hoping one might not find out about activities with others?

Might it seem there would be a self esteem issue with the submissive?

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 42

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:16:19 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lauren0221

quote:

Is there an out of site out of mind perception that if the Dominant can not see or is not aware of her say playing with other dominants?

Is it the pleasure of topping the dominant...being more clever or "smarter" or topping from the bottom that the submissive enjoys?

No pleasure at all for me in that. The second the honesty and integrity goes, the relationship is over. I don't play games or "test". I enjoy serving, not behaving like a spoiled 12 year old.

Understood. Might it be a matter of a learned behavior regarding previous relationships that formed the need to evade?

Might the behavior be more along a form of trophy collection for the submissive?

(in reply to lauren0221)

Post #: 43

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:18:10 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

quote:

Is there pleasure for a submissive if she can "get away with something" without a Dominant knowing she did?

No, there would be no pleasure in that. The dynamic of the relationship has then been damaged.

~smilezz~

So what might you define the dynamic of such a behaviour in the relationship given the basic parameters?

Is there a mental challenge involved here to see if the dominant can be outwitted?

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 44

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:22:45 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleMissSub

to i want to entrust my well being and decision making responsibilities to someone i can pull the wool over on? hell no!

Yes but if the dominant was experienced in technique but just not aware of what was happening online and offline?

The desire of newness in sensation..the risk fact...the fear thrill of meeting someone new....that might be taken into account might it not?

(in reply to LittleMissSub)

Post #: 45

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:28:47 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMspeach

I have to agree with most of what has been said. I get no pleasure out of trying to get away with anything. If anything is causes me pain and the guilt takes over to the point that I feel lost. I always tell on myself. My thought has always been--- why be in a M/s reltionship if you want to play those sort of games.

In the begining of my relationship Master gave me rules about speaking in third person and if forgot i got one punishment for each offence the next time i saw Him. Well i think i had about 10 punishment coming so i asked if there was a way i could get the punishments reduced, earn good point to take away the bad ones so to speak. After some thought He gave me a complicated task and if completed it he would take my punishments away. Well i completed the task and ended up asking for the punishemnt as well because i felt like i had some way gotten away with something and felt very guilty even thought Master agreed. So even thought i dont always understand Master's reasons and it isnt always easy to accept everything , I take what Master gives me because i know the feeling i get from rebelling against him is far worse then the punishment.

It seems the difference may be the pursuit of the desired RELATIONSHIP rather than the desired ACTIVITY.

Might it be the submissive / bottom desire to pursue other activities than the feeling trapped with a relationship might be stronger?

With a committed relationship one might be excluding / missing a new sensation...so might window shopping be more of an entertaining event of eliciting new dominant prospects?

Might the self esteem issue be a means of seeing just how desirable a submissive might be to as many dominants as possible?

I do enjoy all the shades of grey and different perceptions everyone has given the time to post.

Thank you

Ross

(in reply to LaMspeach)

Post #: 46

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:31:04 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cravespleasure

a little off the point.. but if the rules are blurry, and there seems to be some kind of confusion as to what could be concieved as "getting away with something" i feel angst, and confusion. it's those moments when i'm conflicted about coming across as being willful, but really just wanting it clarified. there are times when a request will strike my funny bone because it could be misunderstood a certain way. Then I might be carried away to do said thing.. I would have to have a very close relationship and understand whether my partner had that same sense of humor. to me, finding that peace and security in having the rules be in place creates a freedom of expression that i wouldn't sacrifice. sure i test the box, understand the box, but within the dynamic..not as a "let's see what i can get away with"

Understood...but some submissives like to play semantics don't they?

Not that they play lawyer but they want to have that defining clarified point to their advantage to do as they please?

(in reply to cravespleasure)

Post #: 47

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:32:18 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

I can't think that the person is submissive if he/she is always trying to get away with something. I agree with Tikkee...it's a two way street. How can it work if one is always trying to trick the other? No matter which one (dom or sub) it is.

Perhaps the term should be bottom then?

Tricking not necessarily but rather just hoping one might not find out about activities with others?

Might it seem there would be a self esteem issue with the submissive?

Seems to me that there is an entirely different dynamic with a bottom than there is with a sub. Now I may be talking out of my hat, as I have never bottomed, and I don't want to imply that a bottom feels less toward his or her top than a sub does, by MY perception of a bottom is that s/he wants the sensations more than anything else. IMO, a sub want to please his/her Dom (and may enjoy the sensation(s) also) but pleasing the other is paramount. I don't know how you could please another if you were trying to get away with something.

I mean, if you want to play with others, just ask. That's not hard. The answer is either yes or no. If it's no, then the sub has another decision to make.

Regarding brat play, yeah a LOT of dynamics include that. But that's not trying to get away with anything. Both parties know and understand what the other is doing.

I don't see any self esteem issue. One would hope that the in accepting another as his/her Dom, those self esteem issues would tend to fade. I don't see myself trying to get away with anything. Sure, there are some knuckleheaded decisions I make (as do we all), but they are work related...kid related...not relationship related and I certainly don't hide those decisions.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 48

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:33:48 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Maybe in a playful way, but in real relationship issues I'd be VERY concerned if a sub had their focus on getting away with something. That's what teenagers are for. The trust issue is a two way street. You can't have that if the sub is being manipulative and dishonest.

Might manipulation be the key intent with not just one dominant but many?

Might the emotional trust might be too much for the submissive to handle and would rather edge play with no limits than open up the inner self as for fear of being hurt again?

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 49

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:36:19 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

but what if this was not necessarily a deeply committed relationship but rather one of a casual basis?

If you are referring to occasional play partners, then I believe the obligation to obey the dominant stops when the bedroom/dungeon door opens and all participants can go home happy. What is there to 'get away with' in that situation?

Perhaps given the after care and communication and if the sessions / interaction were on an ongoing basis rather than a one time event?

If it was expressed within those time that the pursual of such dynamics were acceptable to both parties wouldn't that be pertaining?

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 50

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:37:05 AM

bandit25

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SD, I don't know what submissives you've played with in the past, but it seems that your view is a bit skewed, at least to me. In asking for clarity, I think the sub wants to make sure she doesn't misunderstand her Dom's meanings. I don't think it is necessarily a matter of semantics. All kinds of things come into play. I know that there are times I ask for clarification because I am honestly not sure what the intent is. Also, asking for clarification can often lead to a discussion of other things. For example, if a sub has some "objection" to a specific command, she may want to discuss it with her Dom and asking for clarification COULD be a way to start that discussion. It doesn't mean she is trying to manipulate him or that she wants stuff defined to her advantage, she may want to her her discomfort out in the open. What the Dom decides to do at that point, is strictly up to him.

Making one's needs/wants/desires known is not manipulation in my opinion.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 51

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:40:33 AM

bandit25

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Maybe in a playful way, but in real relationship issues I'd be VERY concerned if a sub had their focus on getting away with something. That's what teenagers are for. The trust issue is a two way street. You can't have that if the sub is being manipulative and dishonest.

Might manipulation be the key intent with not just one dominant but many?

Might the emotional trust might be too much for the submissive to handle and would rather edge play with no limits than open up the inner self as for fear of being hurt again?

But if that's the case, where's the manipulation? If a sub/bottom wants edge play, I don't see any manipulation...that's what she wants. A dom can always say no. I don't understand what you are getting at. If that's what she wants and explains that's what she wants, we're all adults. If a dom agrees and plays and HE gets involved, well.....

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 52

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:52:35 AM

bandit25

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LOL...I am replying to myself. But, I looked up the meaning of submissive in the dictionary...the act of submitting (big surprise). Here's what it says for submimt:

1.
to give over or yield to the power or authority of another

Thus, is one is submissive, s/he won't try and "get away" or "put something over" on his or her Dom...by the very definition of submit. Can a sub have more than one Dom...well, I can't...maybe others can, but even then, s/he is not submissive if s/he tries to get away with something. That's called game playing.

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 53

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 3:54:26 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owned1

This to me sounds like manipulation, that is seen more I think in the vanilla world. Where women maniputlate to get what they want. I agree with the posters who have stated it is cheating both out of the basic dynamic of the relationship.

In regard to playing and being mischevious, now that is something that is fun and playful. Pretending to push buttons with a glint in your eye. That is the fun part knowing you will be pulled back to where you should be, and gleefully going back to that place.

Owned

Might then the submission be in body only rather than body and mind?

Perhaps the concept of yes you can do what you want with my body but you can't touch my mind as I am stronger?

(in reply to Owned1)

Post #: 54

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 4:00:56 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

All these things listed are daily occurances here on the messgae board. Did you miss the apologetic thoughts (I fucked up) thread? How many times daily do you see subs asking what should I do now, or do you know what my Dom said?

You know the drill.... the forbidden fruit was just hanging there in front of their eyes and the little snake "makes" them do it because they are truely submissive... so you must realize all these things are the fault of the serpent and the fruit, NOT the sub.

Yes I am guilty of not seeing the aforementioned posts.

So are you saying seriously is it the predetermined nature of some of the submissives that they have no control over how they react to temptation or offers elicited from other dominants?

Is the forbidden fruit more gratifying at that particular moment than something more readily available?

Will this be an ongoing behaviour process for the submissive to always replace the previous gratification with something seemingly more gratifying?

Greener grass on the other side of the fence?

(in reply to NastyDaddy)

Post #: 55

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 4:03:57 AM

subinside

Posts: 233
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From: Toronto, ON
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i sometimes like to post my reply to the op without reading what everyone else says.. so as not to influence my words. This is one of those times, so if i happen to accidently parrot what someone else said.. well then.. i guess Y/you'll just have to deal with it.

If i can get away with stuff.. pull the wool over my Dom's eyes.. well then, that's a sure-fire way to the beginning of the end. i can't be with someone if i can constantly outsmart Him. i am a smart, mischevious girl and need a Dominant who can see that as well as see through it, and be able to recognize when i'm testing/pushing and pull me back into my place.

_____________________________

~si

You want me to call You what?... i'll take it under advisement.

000-150-313

(in reply to LittleMissSub)

Post #: 56

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 4:08:52 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

This is sounding much like the "I have a friend who wants to know.." gig. Could pass this along to the friend..

Would we have it right to say this sub has asked to be owned, but continues to play with others in hopes You won't find out, or possibly in hopes You WILL find out and corral her?

Then when given permission to play with others if she asks first.. shes what? "forgetting" to ask.. or asks so often You can't figure out why she wants to play with every walking top in the free world?

In all 4 cases it sounds like You've been enlisted as her service Top. and yes, that would make her smarter and more clever.. if You hadn't realised she was manipulating You so.

Actually I want to know as the mind intrigues Me as does human behaviour..soetimes too much time behind the window screen in the car with terrible traffic My mind ponders on what-if...yes I am guilty of that. ;)

The term "own" means many things to many people but the understanding sees to apply here...communicate to the top / dominant if the submissive wants t play with others.

Pretty simple request right?

Does the dominant have the right to make such a request and expect it to be fulfilled?

The first instance of asking would display submission beyond mere physical presence wouldn't it?

So the out of sight out of mind approach would not be relevant right?

Yes you make a very good point of servicing as a top...goes back to the age old question of who is controlling who...who is servicing who?

Yes manipulation is the name of the game but identifying why and what motivates submissive manipulation is of interest here...that is if it really exists...

Ross

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 57

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 4:10:31 AM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

Do you enjoy behaving in a disrespectiful manner? Why bother having a power exchange if you can't respect it?

Perhaps then it is not TPE?

TPE involves the mind as well as the body correct?

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 58

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 10:57:34 AM

Mavis

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Looks like we're back to defining labels, and semantics.. but in this case, a "label" surely will help to define expected behaviors. for JUST this case.. can we assume a few?

Top/ bottm play only.. power exchange and authority granted ONLY during the time of a scene. (yes, a Dom/sub can do this, but when the T/b authority expires, the D/s authority steps back in, so there is no authority gap)

So... if a bottom is "doing her own thing" post-scening..with no regard to the Tops wishes, she is doing what T/b is supposed to be all about.. no manipulation here.. The Top is confused on what authority was granted. Failure of expectations is on Tops end.

Dom/sub.. power exchange and authority granted in pre-defined realms outside of the scene.. implication sub can negotiate, but will always defer to Doms judgement, or vote with her feet.

if sub is disregarding Doms wishes to this level, she's obviously not playing with the agreed set of rules..could be fed by insecurities, willfulness, or "she just isn't that into Him" and is essentially voting with her feet.. but neglecting to move forward under her own power.

Master/slave.. power exchange and authority granted in all realms with few noted exceptions (kids, jobs, areas Master delegates out to slave or another to manage).. implication negotiation is finished.. slave is expected to defer to Master will in all things, vote with feet, or die trying. lol.

if this happened in a Master/slave dynamic, slave HAS voted with feet, and Master is too obtuse to see it.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 59

RE: Pleasure of getting away with something? Smarter? - 9/12/2006 6:52:05 PM

petcerina

Posts: 143
Joined: 4/4/2005
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*sigh* i know why you are writing this, because Master asked the same questions last week. i'll take each question one at a time and see if i can help.

quote:

Is there pleasure for a submissive if she can "get away with something" without a Dominant knowing she did?

No, no pleasure at all. It's extremely disheartening, disappointing and a very guilty feeling if i have gotten away with something. i am having to learn now why i have done this for so long and what needs to be done to stop it.

quote:

Is it the pleasure of topping the dominant...being more clever or "smarter" or topping from the bottom that the submissive enjoys?

No, it's the pleasure of not being able to. Being caught and snapped back into place and knowing there is nothing i can get away with.

quote:

Is she looking for the Dominant that can see though her facade or games that she seeks or is it that Dominant the one that she will run away from because he sees through her?

i was looking for the Dominant that can see through the facade or games, but i know now that Master does not see through all of them because He trusts me, and i wish to honor that and uphold His faith in me. It is i, who should admit when i have played games so that i can be punished or corrected properly.

quote:

Is the cat and mouse game to avoid capture and rank more "smarter than him" notches or to be caught and reeled in?

For me, it is to be caught and reeled in. However, as i mentioned earlier, it has taken me years to figure out why i do this, and i have finally come to the worst answer possible that i could have hoped for.

The more experience i gained about BDSM and how it worked, the more i became exactly what i said i never would, an elitist. Thinking that i knew the right way even in the most general sense. i became extremely prideful, arrogant, and manipulative. The more i got away with something through excuses, the more prideful i became. This pattern has caused a problem as of late, and there are measures being taken to correct it. Thankfully, the worst part is over. i was told that admitting my greatest fault was the hardest step, and so far that has proved true. With each day i am finding it easier to be humble, obey, and to be truly and completely honest and prevent myself from causing distrust in Master.

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 60

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