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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/11/2006 7:34:21 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

No, I am not a feminist.  In fact, I feel that the feminist movement has been servely detrimental to everyone, regardless of gender, orientation and class. 
 
 
Hello A/all,
 
The fact that the internet has a message board where one can post alternative sexual pecadillos is a direct result of Second Wave Feminism.

I would suggest you educate yourself about "feminism" prior to being dismissive about the subject.
 
Just me, etc.
 
Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/11/2006 8:07:10 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

Just curious if anyone on this site identifies as a feminist and, if so, how you square that with your D/s principles.


I believe that human beings are intrinsically of the same value, I believe in justice for all human beings. I have also begun to realize that just because we are all intrinsically equal does not mean that we are the "same". The sexes have different strengths and weaknesses, and outliers that have the strength of the opposite sex.

We all should be treated equally, and feminism as a movement gave women in this country great strides in this area. I am thankful for the feminist movement because without it I would not be able to actualize my dreams and my goals. That being said, there comes a time to move past "feminism" and advocate for human beings regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation... that is the place I am in personally. I am not a feminist, I am a humanitarian and a humanist.

I think "feminism" has gotten to be a dirty word, like "liberal" has. People like Rush Limbaugh have demonized the strides of feminism because they are threatened by women being equal to men. That is very sad. Of course there are elements of feminism that are completely whacked, but for the most part the movement got painted with the same radical brush. This form of feminism has radicalized the image of all feminists. I have to say this is unfair, but every generation has to fight for equality and fairness... ours is no different than any other generation.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/11/2006 8:09:45 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Lu$h Bimbo wouldn't know what the real meaning of feminism was if it hit him right in his oxycotin gobbling, viagra popping head.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/11/2006 8:53:18 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

Btw, the I think the image you are referring to was taken by Ruth Orkin. It's called "American Girl in Italy."—if it's the one I'm thinking you're describing. Excellent shot. She was a wonderful photographer, and an influence for me in the early years of my own work.  

Yes, that was the title on the print but I could not recall the photographer's name.  Thank-you. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/11/2006 9:21:58 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
A simple answer really ... you are confusing "people who happen to be women, out doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt" ... with "feminists."

There are surely feminists out there looking to create a social agenda, but they are actually very few in number. What isn't few in number, is the women out there trying to get ahead, and those that label them "feminists" to support their own social agenda.


I do wonder...who is labeling who here?


While you're essentually correct, oh ye of the flowery language ... it would actually be "whom", in the second instance. 

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 9/12/2006 11:08:07 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

While you're essentually correct, oh ye of the flowery language ... it would actually be "whom", in the second instance.


This translates accordingly: I have no point, so I'll revert to ad hominem.

By the way, commas go inside quotation marks, you mensa society fox.
It's not "essentually." It's "essentially."

Can we move on?

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:32:21 AM   
KneelB4You


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure
Are there any feminists out there?


Are there "any feminists out there?" Goodness. As if it's a rarity.

Perhaps a more daring question would be, "are there any non-feminists out there?"


Sure, millions in this country. Sadly, many of them women. Without its huge anti-feminist female constituency the Republican party would not be viable as a political force. Freedom can be a scary state, as the psychoanalyst Eric Fromm once pointed out.

I've called myself a feminist since the 1980s. I like to think I live up to the ideals of this thought system, though like any socialized member of our society I still have unconscious distortions embedded in my worldview. It's liberating - though generally humbling first - to discover and face them honestly.

Any man who is at least marginally observant about the world we live in, thoughtful about what he has seen, has a semblance of honor and the strength and maturity to stand on his own two feet without the patriarchical crutches his blustering forefathers relied on to get by, is going to be a feminist.

The sad thing is, many uneducated/conservative Americans still think if a man says he is a feminist it means he likes to wear panties under his work clothes. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's a different word - "feminized".) Of course, these same FauxNews viewers are also certain that the Estate Tax will apply to them, that Saddam attacked us on 9/11, that the French eat their young, and that Sunni separatists want to come to Peoria and force our kids into Madrassas where they will learn to be homosexual tree-hugging evolution believers. But then, I guess every country has its baggage.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 1:41:00 PM   
thetammyjo


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Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

Just curious if anyone on this site identifies as a feminist and, if so, how you square that with your D/s principles.


I'm a feminist, an "old fashioned" radical feminist in fact.

Why would Ds be in conflict with feminism? I have never ever understood this question whether it comes from non-feminists or so-called feminists.

I don't personally think anyone I would call a feminist would even think to ask this question. They might wonder whether or not there is a choice that is being made but I don't think a feminist would deny a woman that right to make a choice for herself.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 2:08:35 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick

Well we are only born as 2 different genders. I have nothing against transgender people. Each to their own and thats their choice. They are still people and they are still human beings in the end. But the logic to it all is that human beings can only be born as 2 genders. Male or female. No one in this world has ever been born as transgender. It may sound offensive but hey its the truth. You cant change that.


*arches an eyebrow*

First, gender is not the same as gender. That's basic sociological and psychological information.

Second, there aren't even only two sexes. There are people who are born that are not "clearly" male or female for a variety of reasons.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 2:22:52 PM   
Magdalena156


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline 		I do.  My being involved in D/s has nothing to do with gender but what I want as a person.  I submit because I want to and that's my choice.  It doesn't make me any less his equal.

Equal and submitting are not the same thing.  You can have an equal partnership that's D/s.


-m


_____________________________

Lux et umbra vicissim, sed semper amor.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 3:18:00 PM   
touchthesky


Posts: 121
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline 		oh i m a die hard feminist. However i can only respect a man stronger than me, emotionally mentally etc. Most of the men on here i could easily top, me i m lookin for that alpha male

(in reply to Dollbecky)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 5:28:35 PM   
mp072004


Posts: 381
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		I identify as a feminist. I think Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon had some very good points, but their positions on sexuality leave a bit to be desired--or undesired, as the case may be. I'm a little more in line with "sex positive feminism," popularized by Susie Bright and _On Our Backs_, although it gets a little huggy for my tastes outside the bedroom. I've thought hard and read much about gender. I've concluded that having your gonads on the outside or on the inside is vital to reproduction, but now that we have civilization, humans have many objectives greater than reproduction, so configuration of sex organs isn't important. I would argue for the existence of gender equality--in the mathematical sense, meaning same as and thus equal in value. This makes me more second- than third- wave, I think, which is okay with me.

Monica

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 8:06:59 PM   
novicecourtesan


Posts: 116
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		I am and have been a feminist since I can remember. I took the classes, followed the movement, supported the causes, everything. I have to reconcile the essential inequalities I see in this society towards women with the fact that I like strong, dominant men, that I think I could only submit to someone who is well above my equal.

I don't know what the word feminist means anymore. It used to be equal rights for women and men in front of the law and society. Now girls appear totally sexually knowing at 12 but are expected to be virgins, feminists are called feminazis, and rightly so sometimes. Some have made ending pornography an actual goal, which is hilarious when you think about it. We see these damn "modern feminists" on the MPAA boards or yelling about Janet Jackson's nipple or Howard Stern. I think, what the fuck is wrong with these women? Aren't there other women with bigger problems who we, as feminists, should be helping?

And equality--am I allowed to choose when I don't want it? Not according to many. If I tell someone I want a totally unequal sexual relationship--define it by the vanilla sense, please--then I'm a throwback. A traitor to the cause. Some people will not be happy until you start spelling "women" as "womyn." And some people cannot take a joke--feminists, masculinists, whatever.

I don't know what wave of feminism I am. It's a combination of West Coast East Coast submissive independent opinionated pleasure-seeking hedonistic easygoing debate-avoiding  feminism. There are many ways to figure out how submissiveness fits into your feminism or vice versa. You are choosing to give up equality in the bedroom, and feminism is about choice. You are taking care of your own needs and demanding that they be respected, and feminism is about self-respect. You support the right of other women to make their own choices in the bedroom, and feminism is about women's rights in general. It goes on and on, but I don't know if there's a set answer. It's still obviously a hot-button word.

I've been impressed with what I've read on this thread, on both sides. There's no question in my mind that men have been pulled through the ringer in the last few decades in terms of "reorienting" their behavior towards men. So many men equate gentlemen with "wimp" or "submissive" or "gay" instead of seeing it for good manners, social harmony and sheer sexy class. But there are strident feminists taking things too far, just like there are certain male chauvinists who need to unclench. (I mean, seriously, guys. It's not all Basic Instinct out there). I like the dominant, rough, masculine, confident, streetwise men--and I know a lot of little inequalities can come from that. But that's why I'm here, because a lot of those inequalities are things I'm happy to part with or dying to give away, even if it isn't politically correct.

It's redundant, but I don't think labels matter. Personally, I think reconciling a self-defined feminist sensibility to the need to be submissive is going to be ongoing for me. But I find the conflict really liberating; I felt like I couldn't even bring up the thought of being both a feminist and a submissive without being shouted down by everyone in the room.

Secretly, I'll bet a lot of those so-called "feminazis" are closet slaves or submissives. Wouldn't it make sense?

(in reply to mp072004)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 9:20:18 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		Imagine if a men's rights activist started a thread asking if there where other men's rights activist on here? What would be the reaction from people?

If a feminist is socially accepted in western society why isn't a men's rights activist? Because most people in western society (men and women) are generally pro women.

Tell me how life is harder for a woman these days?

(in reply to novicecourtesan)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 9:37:10 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I think of it this way:

The term feminist is very evocative to me.  It is a word which to me means not that men and women are the same, but that women have every right to be appreciated for those things which are resplendent within themselves.

It is not completely appropriate to state that any one thing is designated for one sex or another.

I know many women stronger than men.
I know many fathers more capable of nurturing than mothers.

To me the word feminism means the right to embrace that which defines the woman I am, and which allows me to embrace, enforce and rejoice in those things.

I am a feminist because I do not feel I need to hide any part of what it is I use to define and describe myself as woman.

I am a feminist because the things which separate me from men do not frighten or inhibit who I am as a person.

I am a feminist because I do not need, or even feel the need to explain myself or the choices I have made for myself to any man or any woman unless I feel inclinded or fundamentally moved to do so.

I am a feminist because I embrace my sex and do not use it to further an agenda of either false empowerment or false subjugation.

I am a feminist because I never feel the need to apologize for myself because of my sex.

I am a feminist because I know whole and what I am as a woman.

My being a woman, embracing the feminine as whole and not a fragment, does not in anyway negate my submissiveness.  It works in complete harmony with it, and each facet nurtures and nourishes the other, to make them both more rich in definition.

Thank you, mom; thank you, dad. 

< Message edited by puella -- 2/16/2007 9:49:16 PM >

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:05:05 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		I really dont see why feminism should exist in todays society when women are heavily favored in just about every shape and form. In our laws many things seem to favor women and socially most people are pro woman. If a man dares to say that men have it tough, he will get looked down upon for it while people think nothing of it when a woman says her gender has it tough.

Tell me how women are oppressed at this day and age in western society? I know women are oppressed in asian and middle eastern countries but how are they oppressed in America, UK, or Australia?

Maybe women are oppressed in these countries but I dont see it. Please educate me.

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:07:55 PM   
SimplySubmissive


Posts: 216
Joined: 1/2/2004
Status: offline 		[/quote]

Yes, I'm a feminist.  Although I am submissive to my Master, that has nothing to do with the fact that as a woman I have the right to education, the right to vote, the right to be paid equally for equal work. 
[/quote]

As well as the right to live our lives as we chose.  Much different than when being submissive for a woman was not a choice. Although sometimes I envy those times when a woman could be a homemaker.. and dedicate her life to that, and not have to juggle a job outside the home as well. Sometimes I think we have just added more work for ourselves.. and chosing to stay home and not be career oriented is not always honored as it once was.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:21:35 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Heheh, let me pose this question to you slave2feet07...

In an interview for a job you really wished to secure... if the head of human resources (male) and the  President (for whom you were applying to assist)  asked you... this question   "What is your position on cleavage in the work place?  Do you think it is appropriate and what would you do if you had an employee who had the burden of that problem?"...

Amidst one man leering and one man looking uncomfortable at being caught leering.. do you honestly think that there is no such thing as sexism in today's society?  (Btw, the woman in the interview was wearing a very expensive suit and not displaying Hooter-esque cleavage despite her 'unfortunate' genealogical abundance.

(in reply to slave2feet07)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:23:26 PM   
novicecourtesan


Posts: 116
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		question about men's rights with no agenda attached:

I would imagine that male submissives deal with a very particular set of issues and would probably like to have a forum or thread or two discussing that. Male secretaries and male nurses encounter a lot of problems with their jobs being associated with a lack of masculinity. I would have no problem if men wanted to get together and discuss men's rights. Traditionally, however, the issue of "rights" usually arises with the minority groups, since the majority group has most of the power and doesn't have to worry about defining rights. (I do not mean minority in terms of numbers, but women are still considered a minority for many issues and it hopefully can be conceded that men have been and always been the majority in power. In cases as the above, women are the majority or the "norm")

I don't see feminism as a threat to the men, men's rights or men's sexuality. I wonder about those who do.

slave2feet, while I respect your opinions, something suggests to me that you might be young and perhaps taking many things that feminism has given you for granted. There are many inequalities against women in law and society. What you see as "favoring women" are often the measures to protect women or make them equal--protection from stalking and date rape, the push for equality and safety in the workplace, fair maternity leave and child care, attempts to educate teens about pregancy and sex, prosecuting abusive husbands, rapists and incestuous adults, forcing deadbeat dads to pay child support, equal pay for equal work, birth control, asking men to wear condoms, keeping abortion legal and the glass ceiling (i.e. where a woman's path in the company stops, because all the top execs are men). These are things that feminism has given you that you seem to think are "done deals" and will take care of you and would exist if there were no feminists around. That's not true.  In every one of these areas there are still inequalities that favor the men over the women, areas that practically every woman is going to bump into at one point. And yes, these are all American issues, UK issues, Australia issues...and China, Sudan and Bangladeshi issues. I hope you're not under the illusion that English-speaking countries are somehow exempt from oppressing their women, and it's the rest of the world that's doing that?

To say that men have given up a right to bitch about their rights doesn't seem at all accurate. I hear that all the time, endlessly about how feminism castrated men.  I see plenty of men just fine with feminists because they are too strong to be castrated by anyone. I imagine that there are plenty of male doms and subs on this board who can't imagine any woman taking away their power without their permission.

ountries from Israel to India to Great Britain have embraced female politicians, and we can't even get one elected as Vice President. I would say that women have plenty to bitch about. What I also think is that bitching doesn't solve anything. I love men, especially strong, dominant men. I'm not out to take anything away from them.

You may not like the word feminist, but if you want to be treated the same as any man under the law and by society, and have the same freedoms, then you probably are one.

< Message edited by novicecourtesan -- 2/16/2007 10:42:09 PM >

(in reply to SimplySubmissive)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:51:12 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Heheh, let me pose this question to you slave2feet07...

In an interview for a job you really wished to secure... if the head of human resources (male) and the  President (for whom you were applying to assist)  asked you... this question   "What is your position on cleavage in the work place?  Do you think it is appropriate and what would you do if you had an employee who had the burden of that problem?"...

Amidst one man leering and one man looking uncomfortable at being caught leering.. do you honestly think that there is no such thing as sexism in today's society?  (Btw, the woman in the interview was wearing a very expensive suit and not displaying Hooter-esque cleavage despite her 'unfortunate' genealogical abundance.



Let me tell you this, I have not got certificates or qualifications to get into high class careers. The other week I applied for a job that was in a factory that makes biscuits. A woman owned and ran the place. She said that she prefers to employ women because she thinks women are faster workers. Is this sexism? It goes both ways.

In most office jobs, its usually women who are the employees while its usually men who do the hard labour jobs. If a woman is in charge in a office and there is job interviews on to hire someone, the woman who is in charge is most likely to choose a woman than a man. I have experienced this a number of times and many of my male friends talk about this a lot. The office admin environment seems to be dominated by women. Is this sexism? What stops the women from applying for labor work?

Women leer on men to so can men call that oppression also? Or is it only oppression when men leer on women? Why cant women see these things as a two way street? Of course its wrong to leer on someone in these situations but I have been the only male in a job with 5 other women and I got the sex look on a few occassions and these women having their chats in a group giggling and asking me strange questions but why should I let this bother me? I am here to do my job and get paid, who cares what the other people in the work place think of me, as long as I get my pay check in the end. Am I allowed to cry out oppression?

Not to mention I think thats a pretty poor excuse to explain how women are oppressed and why feminism should exist. There are plenty of female employers who are extremely sexist towards men. Are men allowed to start crying out oppression because of this or is it only justified when it happens to women?

(in reply to puella)
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