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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 10:57:12 PM   
novicecourtesan


Posts: 116
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		"There are plenty of female employers who are extremely sexist towards men."

Too tired to write more, but I will say this: they are a HUGE statistical minority and the harassment is not often as dangerous or abusive as when male employers are sexist towards women.

The rest of your post seems to be personal experiences, and I'm sorry about that. This has never been my experience either hiring or being hired. But don't presume that your experience speaks for the rest of society or the rest of the world when you haven't looked into facts outside your own personal views and past.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:06:13 PM   
freakgoddess


Posts: 48
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline 		i am a feminist and i don't see any conflict with D/s.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:09:02 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		shoot... I posted a very erudite reply and it got eaten in the machine..

Basically it boiled down to... I doubt that the number compare.  there are, statistically speaking more men in power than women.  There is also a huge discrepancy in pay between males at the top of the game and women at the top of the game.  I also would suggest that the blatancy in which sexual harassment/discrimination takes place in terms of how it affects women and men is anywhere near equal.

That being said.. I would also bet that more women just 'deal with' that sort of shit than men, for a myriad of reasons....

Less clear but much shorter,

Jen

< Message edited by puella -- 2/16/2007 11:10:47 PM >

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:13:37 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

"There are plenty of female employers who are extremely sexist towards men."

Too tired to write more, but I will say this: they are a HUGE statistical minority and the harassment is not often as dangerous or abusive as when male employers are sexist towards women.

The rest of your post seems to be personal experiences, and I'm sorry about that. This has never been my experience either hiring or being hired. But don't presume that your experience speaks for the rest of society or the rest of the world when you haven't looked into facts outside your own personal views and past.




Women employers can be abusive to what makes women like you think that only males do these actions? Its rare for a male employer to act dangerous as for actually feeling the need to commit rape. The problem is that many women in society see all men as potential rapist. Thats sexism and oppression within it's self! Just because a man leers a woman it does not mean he is potenially going to rape her or feel her up. I think many women are just too paranoid because of the messages feminism gives out to society of making out that all men are potential rapist, its absolute nonsense.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:13:50 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

Too tired to write more, but I will say this: they are a HUGE statistical minority and the harassment is not often as dangerous or abusive as when male employers are sexist towards women.



You have no idea the reaction a man gets when he attempts... yes attempts to file a sexual harasment against a woman.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:22:21 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		And... you have no idea how many women, statistically speaking .. would never even think to report an incident of sexual abuse.


Comparing sexual abuse as committed from a man against a women  as opposed to a woman against a man is not at all in the same ball park( I have worked on not only HR focus groups but currently work in a not for profit that has a mens clinic and deals with these stats every day.. as a matter of state funding)

I would guess it is only a bit less ridiculous than comparing the instances of racism against African Americans in the business community against racism against whites in the community.

At any rate... this is bringing the OP way off topic and has very little to do with my original post to the OP.


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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:22:55 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

shoot... I posted a very erudite reply and it got eaten in the machine..

Basically it boiled down to... I doubt that the number compare.  there are, statistically speaking more men in power than women.  There is also a huge discrepancy in pay between males at the top of the game and women at the top of the game.  I also would suggest that the blatancy in which sexual harassment/discrimination takes place in terms of how it affects women and men is anywhere near equal.

That being said.. I would also bet that more women just 'deal with' that sort of shit than men, for a myriad of reasons....

Less clear but much shorter,

Jen



Most people are so ignorant about the wage gap. Its because western society in a whole only listens to the opinions of a feminist and not the other side of the story. Let me educate you about the wage gap. Read this link

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/st...5000117,00.html

also this link provides some good information

http://www.warrenfarrell.net/Media/index.html

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:25:35 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

And... you have no idea how many women, statistically speaking .. would never even think to report an incident of sexual abuse.

Comparing sexual abuse as committed from a man against a women  as opposed to a woman against a man is not at all in the same ball park( I have worked on not only HR focus groups but currently work in a not for profit that has a mens clinic and deals with these stats every day.. as a matter of state funding)

I would guess it is only a bit less ridiculous than comparing the instances of racism against African Americans in the business community against racism against whites in the community.

At any rate... this is bringing the OP way off topic and has very little to do with my original post to the OP.




So because so many women don't report it it makes it okay to put the shoe on the other foot?

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/16/2007 11:48:32 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Look... any person can post any amount of cockamamie links to support their ideas.

I can list just as many links to websites to support my position as you can.. neener neener neener,heheh!

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/paygapgrows.htm

http://www.stanford.edu/~ebf/FS101/2001/NYTwagegap.html

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/dol_finalreport.pdf


At the very least, this gets us off topic which is:  How do you find that feminism conflicts with submission?

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 7:50:15 AM   
novicecourtesan


Posts: 116
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		Nice job puella.

There's nothing sadder than a man claiming that women are keeping him down, and then pointing out the few areas where men really have more trouble than women. You poor poor men. You had civilization for centuries; it's not our fault you can't stand up to feminists.

For them men out there who are strong, open-minded and who love strong women, even feminists...we love you too!



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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 7:54:51 AM   
Magdalena156


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slave2feet07

Imagine if a men's rights activist started a thread asking if there where other men's rights activist on here? What would be the reaction from people?

If a feminist is socially accepted in western society why isn't a men's rights activist? Because most people in western society (men and women) are generally pro women.

Tell me how life is harder for a woman these days?



Personally I'd support it.  I see too many militant feminists who want to be superior to men and two wrongs don't make a right.  Also as long as women are continued to be disenfrancised the men suffer too as far as what expectations are for them.

How is life harder for a woman?  Surely you jest.  Have you seen statistics on job salaries?  Have you spoken to a woman employed in the IT field lately?  Would you like me to tell you personal stories about what I've had to put up with being a female programmer in a male-dominated industry?  REAL stories about sexism and BS?  They still happen.  Take your head out of the sand and go talk to some real women out there about these issues.  They're real and they exist.


-m




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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 7:56:03 AM   
Magdalena156


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

You have no idea the reaction a man gets when he attempts... yes attempts to file a sexual harasment against a woman.


I believe it.  Men are also victims of rape, sexual abuse, abuse from a partner, et cetera.  I've known a few.  They're out there.


-m


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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 7:57:38 AM   
Magdalena156


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

Nice job puella.

There's nothing sadder than a man claiming that women are keeping him down, and then pointing out the few areas where men really have more trouble than women. You poor poor men. You had civilization for centuries; it's not our fault you can't stand up to feminists.

For them men out there who are strong, open-minded and who love strong women, even feminists...we love you too!


My closest friends are all male and they are fierce champions of women.  I wish I could clone every one of them and send them out into the world where they can educate the populace on what being a man really is versus what the culture tells us it is, and ditto on women.

Agreed on the nothing sadder.


-m



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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 3:32:57 PM   
kate


Posts: 177
Joined: 1/10/2004
Status: offline 		i am a feminist....and i haven't seen any problems....as a feminist i CHOOSE to be part of this....i want the choice to be who ever i want....and the life i have chosen is in BDSM.....it is actually a very empowering thing.... we had a talk about this at the womens center at school (i work there) and we all agreed that being submisave to a man is a way of pushing stareo types.... it is who i am and i am free to live that life....aint life grand?

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(in reply to Magdalena156)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 3:35:13 PM   
pickingrinnin


Posts: 19
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		I do believe VERY strongly in equal rights, respect, education, pay, treatment, and opportunities for people regardless of their race, sex, gender, age, religion, etc. etc.  I don't care for gender roles, and I believe that men and women (and all other variations) are equally capable of doing any job.

I will never use the term "feminist" to describe myself, simply because the term itself is sexist.  Something that linguistically pointed towards equality ("equalitavist"?) would be much better.

- Jesse

(in reply to Magdalena156)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/17/2007 3:53:47 PM   
Magdalena156


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pickingrinnin

I will never use the term "feminist" to describe myself, simply because the term itself is sexist.  Something that linguistically pointed towards equality ("equalitavist"?) would be much better.


I like that attitude :)


-m


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Lux et umbra vicissim, sed semper amor.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/19/2007 6:16:59 PM   
slave2feet07


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

Nice job puella.

There's nothing sadder than a man claiming that women are keeping him down, and then pointing out the few areas where men really have more trouble than women. You poor poor men. You had civilization for centuries; it's not our fault you can't stand up to feminists.

For them men out there who are strong, open-minded and who love strong women, even feminists...we love you too!





There is nothing sadder than men claiming that women are keeping them down? MY GOD you dont think men have a right to do this? Women think they do so why can't men? Because you don't want equality, you want things to favor women. Do you expect men to just shut up and deal with it while women complain all day, everyday about men keeping them down? Women still complain about what happened in another generation for christ sake, you poor poor women even that you were too young or not even born than you still think you are justified to complain about female oppression that happened generations ago to justify male oppression in the present.

Is that what you call strong? Thats what I call a weak excuse to put men down because in reality you really hate men. What you need to start realizing is that men face most of the oppression at this day and age in western society but it seems to be a taboo subject to talk about. A woman is allowed to mention oppression in the past while a male is not allowed to mention oppression in the present. Thats how screwed up people are these days in society. Our society is dominated by female chauvinism because most people seem to think female problems are more important than male problems. Tell me how do women show concerns for male problems? What do women do for men?

There are an endless amount of men who show concerns for women problems and back up their claims about it but how many women listen to men and back up men's claims about the problems women force on men?

Who is the most understanding, caring, and less sexist gender? There are so many men who help and show concern for women's problems but there is a very little amount of women who support men. Does this make you think? I will ask again. Who is the most understanding, caring and less sexist gender? I would have to say MEN.

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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/19/2007 6:33:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

At the very least, this gets us off topic which is:  How do you find that feminism conflicts with submission?



Exactly.

From a purely historical perspective, the acceptance of a submissive male or a Dominant female go back to second wave feminism.

On the other points, there was an interesting article in Esquire called "I am worried about the boy" where the author posited the idea that Feminism came along and gave women the freedom to be whoever she wanted to be, but there was no corresponding movement to state that a male could be anything he wanted to be. 

What was fascinating about the article was that the author did not blame anybody.  He simply made the point that while women have the cultural ability to express their innermost thoughts and feelings, men have been chastized for generations for being open.  Couple that with a societal movement which claims that men are somehow to blame for the situation women find themselves in, and a 12 year old boy trying to discover his place in the field is at a significant disadvantage since culturally he is somehow to blame for it.

I am not trying to trash either side, simply pointing out that the issue has many facets to consider.

Sinergy

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(in reply to puella)
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RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/19/2007 7:04:17 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I believe in equal rights and equal respect, so I guess that makes me a feminist. how does it figure into my D/s relationship? I am the Boss because by nature I am dominant and he is submissive. I am not into micromanagement and so I give him choices sometimes, to which he doesn't always like but, it is my call.  Is this feminism? No its just how I am.  

My feminism shows when someone disrespects me or attempts to insult/belittle or tell me I am inferior because of my gender. NONE of which my submissive does. He is a gentleman and would never do that sort of a thing. He respects my belief and shares them so we do not have any problems there.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Are there any feminists out there? - 2/19/2007 7:16:30 PM   
TypeAsub1


Posts: 65
Joined: 12/10/2006
Status: offline 		Well unless we have women here who think they have no right to vote, no right to choose their partner, should not receive equal pay for equal work (if they work), should not have maternity leave from their job if they give birth, should not have the right to charge their rapist if they are raped, the right to use birth control, the right to divorce, and a million other daily things that we experience every day...

We're all feminists and we're all benefitting from Feminism. 

It drives me nuts when people are foolish enough to attempt to disassociate from Feminism based on the media's portrayal of the extremists... Then again, people are also stupid enough to believe that all muslims are terrorists based on the same tripe.

There is no need for reconciliation.  Feminism was, is and always will be about the freedom to choose how we live - especially sexually.   There are no conflicts between d/s and feminism... none.  

The question for me is: why do you perceive that there are conflicts? 

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