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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/18/2006 10:15:17 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		All spot on with the exception of the words in bold. The British Government and wider British society are gaining a lot from this. Mainly, the safeguard of US trade in Europe (i.e. ensuring that a large slice of it comes to the UK). Just as the illegal invasion is propping up the lifestyles of Americans the same applies to the British.

Trade between UK and US is hardly due to British support of US policy. So far I havn't seen a mass exodus of US corporations from France, Germany, Italy etc, etc,etc.... Supplies of French fries appear to be good in the US.
 
Can't see that UK gains much from the whole affair other than retaining its reputation for having armed forces that can be deployed to locations where casualties can and will occur. Something many other countries avoid at all !!! costs. As MC has stated cheap oil / petrol the UK does not get! 
 
Despite all the claims of the war being about oil I also see no evidence that Iraq conflict is proping up US lifestyle I'm sure many Americans would be able to massively indulge in consumerism, waste and generally screwing each other and the rest of the world in the name of profit with or without the Iraq war. 

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 12:12:28 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

All spot on with the exception of the words in bold. The British Government and wider British society are gaining a lot from this. Mainly, the safeguard of US trade in Europe (i.e. ensuring that a large slice of it comes to the UK). Just as the illegal invasion is propping up the lifestyles of Americans the same applies to the British.

Trade between UK and US is hardly due to British support of US policy. So far I havn't seen a mass exodus of US corporations from France, Germany, Italy etc, etc,etc.... Supplies of French fries appear to be good in the US.
 
Can't see that UK gains much from the whole affair other than retaining its reputation for having armed forces that can be deployed to locations where casualties can and will occur. Something many other countries avoid at all !!! costs. As MC has stated cheap oil / petrol the UK does not get! 
 
Despite all the claims of the war being about oil I also see no evidence that Iraq conflict is proping up US lifestyle I'm sure many Americans would be able to massively indulge in consumerism, waste and generally screwing each other and the rest of the world in the name of profit with or without the Iraq war. 


I'm just curious, if that's what you think the war isn't about, what do you think it is about? 

_____________________________


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(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 12:46:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		A small minded grudge probably, nothing else seems to fit the bill.Saddam was certainly in no position to threaten anyone, not even Israel because he was being contained. Perhaps the fact that he was tying up military resources through the policing of the no-fly zone and Bush wanted to release those resources and has got stung. Oil doesn't add up, Iraqi oil was still finding its way onto the world market because Iraq needed the money. Maybe it was the constant international outcry that sanctions were killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Bush was looking for a swift end rather than having the constant barrage of criticism. Britain's participation might be Blair's inability to say no or maybe he felt morally obliged to do something because the no-fly zone that was put in place to protect the Kurds and the sh'ites in the south was Britain's idea. Other than withdrawing and leaving Saddam to do what he wanted to the Kurds and sh'ites and looking like he had scored a moral victory, invasion was the only end game to the ongoing saga. The real problem for liberals and I'm one myself, all they offered was criticism and no solution. If there is one criticism that gives the right the moral high ground it is the fact that the left rarely offers solutions to its many criticisms. That doesn't mean to say I believe in the invasion, I don't.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/19/2006 12:51:55 AM >

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 6:42:41 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		The purpose seems to have been to get a large American army in place, in a part of the world vital to western interests. There is no exit strategy, because you really only need one if you are planning on exiting.
 
Possibly foolish strategy. Only time will tell. Foolish or not, people that think this will lead to destruction of the power of the west, need one of Mercnbeth's tin foil hats.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 9/19/2006 6:43:15 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 7:01:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		If that is the case, America has broken one of the golden rules, never commit your forces without necessity. Perhaps that is why apparently so much of the military elite was against the war, they could see the foolishness of it.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 7:02:29 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac
Despite all the claims of the war being about oil I also see no evidence that Iraq conflict is proping up US lifestyle I'm sure many Americans would be able to massively indulge in consumerism, waste and generally screwing each other and the rest of the world in the name of profit with or without the Iraq war. 


Hello A/all,

I believe the Iraq war was about oil.  I think Rumsfeld and his ilk were annoyed when Papa Bush brought the troops home from the middle east, and were simply hoping for a pretense when Monkeyboy was elected King to move them back over there.

Clinton and his staff had done a massive study of the feasibility of invading Iraq, and showed that our armies would defeat Hussein in a week to ten days.  Then the collapse of social structure would embroil our troops in a conflict without end, in a country that hated us, and we would be unable to reestablish the oil infrastructure.

I do not believe the current administration read past page 2 of the study.  I honestly believe they are so incompetent and blind to reality that they considered we would invade Iraq and be welcomed with open arms by everybody in the country.  Then everybody would work diligently to reestablish the flow of oil to the America at significantly reduced prices, or fund the liberation by selling the oil to other countries.

This, obviously, did not happen.  And from what the Simian In Chief keeps saying his closed speeches to friends from daddy's Rolodex, he still cannot figure out why the Iraqis are angry with us.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 7:28:38 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If that is the case, America has broken one of the golden rules, never commit your forces without necessity. Perhaps that is why apparently so much of the military elite was against the war, they could see the foolishness of it.


Assuming that is some sort of rule, and assuming there was no necessity. We really don't know either to be the case, at this point.
 
You are certainly correct about the military elite. It is also accurate to say that Suetonius tells us that Caesar's war in Gaul was so unpopular with the Roman senate, that he had to finance it out of his own money. It turned out very well, from the Roman point of view. Another example would be the powerful forces in Byzantium that aligned against Justinian's plan to send Belisarius west with the army. Procopius tells us that there were riots in the streets. Twenty years later, Belisarius had taken back most of the western Empire, including the African bread basket.
 
We share the same side in our opinion about the wisdom of American involvement in Iraq ... but I'm not quite as ready to make conclusions. Events have not played out enough as of yet, in my opinion.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 9/19/2006 7:30:00 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 7:36:21 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Those aren't very good comparisons, caitlyn.  Caesar's campaigns were unpopular with the Senate for POLITICAL reasons.  (Mainly, they were afraid that he was trying to make himself into an emperor.  They were right.)  Meatcleaver is talking about high-ranking military personnel who opposed the war in Iraq for MILITARY reasons (though none of them opened their mouths till they retired, bastards).

If we don't know yet whether it was "necessary" to invade Iraq, then it wasn't necessary to invade Iraq.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/19/2006 7:42:55 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 7:49:17 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Meatcleaver is talking about high-ranking military personnel who opposed the war in Iraq for MILITARY reasons (though none of them opened their mouths till they retired, bastards).


Hello A/all,

One of the aspects of the oath that military types take when they are inducted is to give up their rights to free speech insofar as their military heirarchy is concerned.

In other words, they were not at liberty to state their feelings about the war in Iraq or their commander in chief until after they were no longer in the military.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 8:14:03 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Meatcleaver is talking about high-ranking military personnel who opposed the war in Iraq for MILITARY reasons (though none of them opened their mouths till they retired, bastards).


Hello A/all,

One of the aspects of the oath that military types take when they are inducted is to give up their rights to free speech insofar as their military heirarchy is concerned.

In other words, they were not at liberty to state their feelings about the war in Iraq or their commander in chief until after they were no longer in the military.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy


This is a true statement.   It is called for the good of the service because voicing one's opinion to much can cause death in some situations.  Doesn't stop them from having them.

I have been watching this thread.   Lots of mudslinging, nothing really substantial.  both sides have some elements of truth and some that are just conjecture. 

It is like the educational system.  I was talking to a professor at UC Berkley once.  He told me that I was a trator to my country because I was military.  When asked he said that it was because I supported the war.  I never new that.  I was in the army for very different reasons but he wouldn't accept them.   He did say if I were in his class that I would fail, no matter what, because I didn't agree with him.

I see that going on here.    I am a republican.  I don't agree with all policies.  I do agree with some of the liberal agenda.   I do agree with some of the conservative agenda.   But what I see here I don't agree with.   to me it is jsut plain ole mudslinging to no avail.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 8:19:55 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ken,

The OP in and of itself was a mechanism to demonize and sling mud, what else was supposed to happen on this thread but people point that out to him?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 8:24:49 AM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Ken,

The OP in and of itself was a mechanism to demonize and sling mud, what else was supposed to happen on this thread but people point that out to him?


Oh then I guess I missed the point

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 8:30:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		if you go back to my post, I believe post 13 or 14, I think I picked apart how the opening post was demonizing people who had different politics and I do not believe I once demonized the other side... so there ya are.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 73
KenDckey thoughts:WAS: Our great nation is facing an ep... - 9/19/2006 8:44:55 AM   
sirmagicky


Posts: 15
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Lexington, KY
Status: offline
Ken:

I supported the war NOT for WMD, NOT because I believed the bull about Saddam and al-Qaida, NOT for Oil. We created the monster of Saddam in the first place back in the 80's during the Reagan administration, we led the Kurds to believe we would support them if they rose up and over threw him and then we failed to follow through. In short, it was US and western political policy that created this mess, therefore as I see it  we were obligated to fix it or clean it up.

Side bar:
Nice idea in theory but our execution once again fell short. I guess our President didn't read and comprehend Sun Tzu.

Our moral obligation  was the only reason I supported the war. At the same time I also support a citizens right to "decent" and voice that decent loudly and clearly. If you (universal) were against the police action (I don't recall Congress declaring war) it doesn't make you a traitor anymore than being in the military made you automatically sympathetic.

Maybe it's just me, but our Nation seems to be forgetting that Decent, protest and free speech are the fundamental principles of our society. This also means that I must show tolerance for the views I may not like.

As Voltaire is alleged to have said: ( Some question on that):

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

It seem your professor forgot something Voltaire did say in his Essay on Tolerance

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

Sometimes the most learned of people can display the most ignorant behaviors.

By the way...
 
Thank you for taking the time out of your life to do service to your country.

Sir Magic

-- --
Magic's Law: #19
There is no such thing as absolute Destiny or Freewill,
for both are carefully interwoven into the fabric of the
human universe.
Destiny is the door presented before you...
Freewill is the choice whether to walk through it.

Magic's World
http://www.darkangel.com

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 8:45:51 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Those aren't very good comparisons, caitlyn.  Caesar's campaigns were unpopular with the Senate for POLITICAL reasons.  (Mainly, they were afraid that he was trying to make himself into an emperor.  They were right.)  Meatcleaver is talking about high-ranking military personnel who opposed the war in Iraq for MILITARY reasons (though none of them opened their mouths till they retired, bastards).

If we don't know yet whether it was "necessary" to invade Iraq, then it wasn't necessary to invade Iraq.


Suetonius tells us that part of the unpopularity of Caesar's plan revolved around stirring up a Gaulic population that had invaded Italy several times in the previous century. I betray my bias towards period writers, admittedly. You are correct that some in the senate had political moves at heart ... but of course it may also be that some today may have equally political motives.
 
I agree with your closing statement, but would offer an alternative.
 
Just because you and I don't know why it was "necessary" to invade Iraq, doesn't meant that it wasn't.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: KenDckey thoughts:WAS: Our great nation is facing a... - 9/19/2006 10:28:46 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirmagicky


Ken:

I supported the war NOT for WMD, NOT because I believed the bull about Saddam and al-Qaida, NOT for Oil. We created the monster of Saddam in the first place back in the 80's during the Reagan administration, we led the Kurds to believe we would support them if they rose up and over threw him and then we failed to follow through. In short, it was US and western political policy that created this mess, therefore as I see it  we were obligated to fix it or clean it up.

Side bar:
Nice idea in theory but our execution once again fell short. I guess our President didn't read and comprehend Sun Tzu.

Our moral obligation  was the only reason I supported the war. At the same time I also support a citizens right to "decent" and voice that decent loudly and clearly. If you (universal) were against the police action (I don't recall Congress declaring war) it doesn't make you a traitor anymore than being in the military made you automatically sympathetic.

Maybe it's just me, but our Nation seems to be forgetting that Decent, protest and free speech are the fundamental principles of our society. This also means that I must show tolerance for the views I may not like.

As Voltaire is alleged to have said: ( Some question on that):

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

It seem your professor forgot something Voltaire did say in his Essay on Tolerance

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

Sometimes the most learned of people can display the most ignorant behaviors.

By the way...
 
Thank you for taking the time out of your life to do service to your country.

Sir Magic

-- --
Magic's Law: #19
There is no such thing as absolute Destiny or Freewill,
for both are carefully interwoven into the fabric of the
human universe.
Destiny is the door presented before you...
Freewill is the choice whether to walk through it.

Magic's World
http://www.darkangel.com


Oh I agree.   I supported the war.  I believed that the search for wmd's was being stonewalled by both sadam and the UN.   I believed in the plight that we caused going back for a long time and several administrations.  I believed in what I considered the support of terrorists by Sadam when he started paying their families bounties on the lives of their loved ones.  And I believed that someone had to put an end to it.   What I disagreed with here was my perception that this wasn't becoming a meaningful debate just an opportunity to mudsling without substance.  But Julia said that was the point of the posts so I let it go.  That can be a fun game too.   I just took it wrong.

(in reply to sirmagicky)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 5:35:16 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Expressing that Clinton was a horrible evil person because he enjoyed getting blow jobs is patriotic.


Yes, weeeel that's different, you know, 'cause Clintons a democrat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If you actually do the research, you will probably determine that the most corrupt administration, even worse than Reagan, will be the current Simian In Chief.

Just me, the Historian, but I could be wrong.

Sinergy

I started to doubt my sanity when I started thinking we would be better off with Nixon than the cretin who stole the election in 2004.



I think if we knew everything, you might well turn out to be right - I remember the joke conservatives were telling right after the election, that the difference between Clinton and Bush was that Bush was the one under the table on knees.

The Onion of course, celebrated the Neo-con triumph with the headline: "Our Long National Nightmare of Peace and Prosperity is Finally Over".

Nixon wasn't all that bad a president really - insane maybe, a paranoid schizophrenic perhaps, but I think his heart... well, I think he had one anyway.

The sort of screed in the OP is really too much after listening to Limbagh whine about liberals crying "doom and gloom", leading with their emotions, etc., although the best is when he accuses liberals of being in lockstep, and urges his listeners to "think for yourselves", just prior to eviscerating a fellow conservative for daring to offer a thoughtful criticizism of the maximum leader, or deviating from the party line in the most minimal degree.

These people have never heard of irony apparently.

I mean liberals are far from perfect, they can be pretty annoying actually, but they can usually be counted on to argue in good faith, and neither am I sure I've ever heard two liberal agree on anything - which is why they've come out badly in the last few elections, IMO - the price you pay for being the party of diversity.

English and Crappy belaboring each other over a point of internet procedure is a good example - one should link to the primary source when quoting, it's actually a copyright issue for the hosting website, but without finesse, it devolved into a pointless, energy squandering squabble.

And no, please don't start flaming me over that gentlemen - why can't we all just get along?, Lol.

The OP is probobly one of those think tank psy-ops shills testing the waters, too deep for him I guess, these guys don't stand a chance in a fair fight. They typically specialize in hit and run's like this, distract you while they make trouble elsewhere, or use passive aggressive tactics to reel you into insulting them directly, then report you and try to get you banned.

You have to stick to the facts, the only really effective way to turn the tables - this guy lost his offensive momentum when English called him on the republican congesses kowtowing to the Saudi's and kneecapping Clintons anti-terrorism efforts, all matters of public record, and he bolted like a rabbit, looking for greener pastures. They're really pushing this one hard, trying to make the hand puppet appear effectual.

Otherwise, you just get into this divisive name calling and shallow catagorization - which is a form of misdirection that turns any discussion about policy issues into a juvenile pissing contest. Divide and conquer, don't fall for it.

Hopefully, they've overplayed this one, you can only get away with acting like THE SHIT for so long - at some point, you gotta deliver the goods. Lincoln, lol, now he was a smart guy.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 5:55:15 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac
Despite all the claims of the war being about oil I also see no evidence that Iraq conflict is proping up US lifestyle I'm sure many Americans would be able to massively indulge in consumerism, waste and generally screwing each other and the rest of the world in the name of profit with or without the Iraq war. 


Damn right baby, it's the American "way of life", haintcha heard? Nothing like raping a virgin continent to instill a sense of entitlement.

Except that my suspicion is that all along, it's all been about getting British and American oil interests back into Iran after the Shiites kicked them out - it still chafes, I believe, and the hand puppets obesiance to BP etc., is well established (ANWR). Some species of aristocratic grudge near the bottom of all this, I'm guessing, and I'm not entirely sure that AQ itself doesn't have it's roots in the Shah's regime somewhere.

The Bush's have distinct dynastic ambitions, and they'd be courting aristocrats. I wouldn't be suprised if the governor of Florida turned out to be the next in line.

Then there's the fact that we dropped Afghanistan like a hot potato the second it was determined that the second the Caspian reserves turned out to be mostly non-existant, to invade Iraq post-haste, on the premise that Iraqi oil would pay for the inconvenience. Then start shit with Iraq? Hell even the pope is getting in on the act. By now they must be getting desperate and thinking they could still get to the oil even if they turn the whole ME into a glass parking lot.

You think the rest of the ME doesn't know this? Blood feuds are a sacred tradition to these people - the Sunni's would probobly invade Iran themselves just to avoid it.

Oil is finite, but for now, it's easier to control than the alternatives - besides, people worried about running out of gas for their oversized SUV's are more likely to vote for you if you say "cheap oil".

< Message edited by Amaros -- 9/19/2006 6:03:11 PM >

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 6:15:17 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Wrong.  In late 2001, Rumsfeld called them in for a powwow about how to take the war beyond Afghanistan, and all the real military types knew his plan wasn't gonna fly.  They didn't say anything, and regretted it later.  Greg Newbold, the deputy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff responsible for operations, recalls:

quote:

My only regret is that at the time I did not say "Mr. Secretary, if you try to put a number on a mission like this you may cause enormous mistakes.... Give the military what you would like to see them do, and then let them come up with it. I was the junior guy in the room, but I regret not saying it."


You can read about it here:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19197

Or better yet, just read the book.  It's called Cobra II, by Michael R. Gordon and Bernard E. Trainor.

Yawn.  EVERYBODY seems to think they know better.  It's really tiresome, you know?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

In other words, they were not at liberty to state their feelings about the war in Iraq or their commander in chief until after they were no longer in the military.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Our great nation is facing an epidemic - 9/19/2006 6:21:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Uhhh, caitlyn, sweetheart, the CIA didn't think it was necessary to invade Iraq.  The military didn't think it was necessary to invade Iraq.  The only people who thought it was necessary to invade Iraq were the ideologues (the ones who didn't want to hear the intelligence): Rumsfeld, Cheney, and their marionettes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Just because you and I don't know why it was "necessary" to invade Iraq, doesn't meant that it wasn't.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 80
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