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RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 7:17:23 PM

MistressDolly

Posts: 917
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

Imo, submission is a decision and is not something that can be "taken" thru brainwashing or cohersion. But then again, I can't speak much about your inquiry b/c I've never heard of "brainwashing" a sub.

On a side note: A Master I play with has hypnothized me but we didn't incorporate that into a scene. One thing I learned from him (he's certified) is that while under, no one would do anything they would not ordinarily do in their usual awakened state.

ps. For me, forget about brainwashing, I like to control my lil subbies with just a "look" in my eyes.

Have fun.

(in reply to MistressUses)

Post #: 41

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 7:56:45 PM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Yup. What time is good for you?

Tomorrow night at eight. Just you, me, some bondage gear, a big jar of nut butter and a trio of crazed squirrels. Sounds like a great first date!

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 42

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 8:27:07 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

i play by my own rules and said rules CLEAR and evident.

i'm not at a want for subs.

don't worry about their brains.. that's up to me. and who says they're traumatized?

traumatized according to WHOM?

Their wife.. their girlfriend..their mother.. their SO....thier boss at work wondering why they aren't concentrating..

But you go girl! LIVE that fantasy!

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 43

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 9:49:11 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

To calibrate terminology, I see morals to have greater variance across people and cultures than do ethics, and I see ethics to have a comparatively more objective flavor. I see morality to have a broader scope that is influenced by ethics as well as concepts of virtuosity. I see ethics to revolve around the concept of fairness. For instance, I see the question of premarital sex to be a moral matter, not an ethical one. I am more interested in ethics than morality.

While I think it is easier to seek agreement about an ethical matter than a moral matter, I recognize there is a gray area in ethics as well. Perhaps some measure of ethics is whether the proposed fundamental idea seems equally reasonable if applied to self, a stranger, a loved one, or a rival.

Within BDSM, I think one creed for ethics held by most, if not all, is consent. Earlier in this thread, my concern with hypnosis and brainwashing was that they appear to have greater potential to conflict with this creed than do most other forms of play. Clarifications by those who practice hypnosis suggest it is more benign than I knew it to be. I am less sure about brainwashing.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 44

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 10:59:15 PM

MistressSassy66

Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

I dont like the brainwashing term either...Behavior Modification is a term I like.
I have found the bullwhip to be a very effective tool for "retraining".

I tread lightly on what I am Modifying,and I am hesitant to use anything that takes away a submissives control to say yellow or red.

I personally dont care what others do,its upto them to decide what limits they have or dont have.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to MistressUses)

Post #: 45

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 11:11:19 PM

cacodylic

Posts: 157
Joined: 3/6/2005
From: CA
Status: offline

Why not sign up for an online brainwashing course at the Kim Jong-Il Institute?

(in reply to MistressUses)

Post #: 46

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 11:12:25 PM

dicipline2

Posts: 63
Joined: 5/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: dicipline2
I also cant help but feel like....if this was a dom who did this to his female slave...HOLY S**T! he would be in jail!

Help me understand how this is criminal? What state or federal law prohibits hypnosis, planting triggers or conditioning the mind?

It is not so much a question of a single law, but the interpretation of which by the court or prosecutors which can get you into trouble.

They could claim it aas a form of domestic violence (though unlikely if it was actually consented to). It really depends... they could charge you with something as stupid as criminal mischief (trust me it happens).

As I said, its all in interpretation of the law rather than a single law that specifically defines this practice. Laws are intentionally worded so many situations could fall under them.

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 47

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/4/2006 11:28:17 PM

dicipline2

Posts: 63
Joined: 5/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cacodylic

Why not sign up for an online brainwashing course at the Kim Jong-Il Institute?

thats the kind of image this conjures in my mind....*frowns* I think this is something that tends to give a bad name to S&M. Just a bad idea....you could find something equally as erotic surely...

I am just concerned for those whose minds get messed with....if they develop a serious psychological problem and spend the rest of their lives in an institution, how would that make you feel? you would have effectively ended their lives by making them unable to function in society.

This just brings up a myriad of ethical issues and dillemas that I know I would not want to have to deal with. Also, does being a Dom or Domme in a BDSM relationship entitle you to make decisions that may have long term consequences on health and well being of that sub/slave?

I just read a thread where ayoung woman expierenced bouts of depression after normal play some termed "subdrop". I wouldnt even want to speculate the effects of "brainwashing" or "reprograming".

besides, what is erotic about someone who has to be coerced into play? Isnt part of the fun in the fact that the sub enjoys taking on this role?

< Message edited by dicipline2 -- 10/4/2006 11:29:50 PM >

(in reply to cacodylic)

Post #: 48

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 12:57:36 AM

edgeofreality

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline

I rarely post on the boards here but I have spoken with EbonyFtshGoddess in the past and I thought perhaps a submissives view on the subject might be in line. I do not serve this Goddess but I have read her website and spoken with her at length about what she wants and expects from her slaves. It isn't for everyone- although it certainly may be for me. Some of us crave total control-and the control that such reprogamming can add to a relationship may be desired by some of us.

I feel that as long as the parties are going INTO it with a clear mind and an understanding of what the results can be it is perfectly acceptable- as to the affects on other people in there life that is something that is up to them and they should consider....and they probably shouldn't be signing up for something so intense and potentially permanent if they have a wife or other form of SO.

(in reply to dicipline2)

Post #: 49

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 5:42:31 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

thats the kind of image this conjures in my mind....*frowns* I think this is something that tends to give a bad name to S&M. Just a bad idea....you could find something equally as erotic surely...

Sure there are lots of things that are erotic...but if consenting adults want to do it, they should be able to.

quote:

I am just concerned for those whose minds get messed with....if they develop a serious psychological problem and spend the rest of their lives in an institution, how would that make you feel? you would have effectively ended their lives by making them unable to function in society.

People's minds get messed with all the time without hypnosis. If you read what those who are experienced in it have stated, there is not anything that would be done under that would not be done without it. I think you may be projecting more of a danger than there realistically is. I would ask those who are experienced what the dangers are before jumping to conclusions.

quote:

This just brings up a myriad of ethical issues and dillemas that I know I would not want to have to deal with. Also, does being a Dom or Domme in a BDSM relationship entitle you to make decisions that may have long term consequences on health and well being of that sub/slave?

Yes, it does. Most of us do so with the well being of the slave in mind. This includes deciding to use hypnosis.

quote:

I just read a thread where ayoung woman expierenced bouts of depression after normal play some termed "subdrop". I wouldnt even want to speculate the effects of "brainwashing" or "reprograming".

sub drop as well as dom drop are very common occurrances. You might want to research those and learn about them because you may experience them. No, you should not speculate on the effects. Instead, ask some submissives who have done it what the effects are. That will likely give you more insight. Any subs want to share?

quote:

besides, what is erotic about someone who has to be coerced into play? Isnt part of the fun in the fact that the sub enjoys taking on this role?

I think MisPandora and GoddessDustyGold went into some detail about this one. It does not have to be an all or nothing thing, it can enhance what is already there. It can also be a fun form of play.

It might not be for you...I am still debating whether it is for me too. But the people who have shared on this thread taught me a thing or two. Maybe keep an open mind, at least for others' ideas on it. You might think it's not ok for you but make sure you have all the facts and accurate ones not just suppositions and opinions based on "what if's" before deciding. :)

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to dicipline2)

Post #: 50

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 7:42:56 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

I think all that we do involves a little brain washing ...

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

Post #: 51

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 9:40:14 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

i play by my own rules and said rules CLEAR and evident.

i'm not at a want for subs.

don't worry about their brains.. that's up to me. and who says they're traumatized?

traumatized according to WHOM?

Their wife.. their girlfriend..their mother.. their SO....thier boss at work wondering why they aren't concentrating..

i don't take married slaves or males that have GFs..

OBVIOUSLY someone that is a slave to me doesn't have a place with me under such scrutiny if he's married. try explaining an allowance, travel here to me in hollywood or chastity to their wives/gf? i'm nearly first and foremost in their lives. so sorry, the possibility of a married male under me is barely feasible UNLESS his wife knows that he serves me and she comes second. PERIOD. few women can accept that, but if she can't control him how he NEEDS to be then that's on her: i won't be clandestine nor hidden. i have one such german slave that is married and his wife knows that he serves me, she and I have spoken and we go on from there. she has no problem with it.

as far as family is concerned... i NEVER keep my slaves away from their family nor do i control when they see them, they merely have to note a family visit in their weekly schedule and i NEVER stop them. they also have to note anything else in the schedule. i pick and choose any other engagements that they can or cannot attend. i NEVER stop them from seeing their family NOR do i make stipulations that their family is made privy to their slave standing with me. but i will know where my slaves are at any and all times.

to me family is tops. i don't *brainwash* my slaves into staying away from family. i know some males that approach me wanting to be entirely kept away from everyone in their lives. and i always tell them... nope, not gonna fly. i'm not here to keep you from your family. it's the life YOU chose, not a life chosen by your family. so they have free reign to be with their family.... next.

work?.. pffff.. so i send them to work pantied or plugged they can still concentrate. they're not mindless and the slaves i have are doing rather well for themselves under my control- THAT they seek.

for some ODD reason people equate and attempt to unilaterally translate reprogramming or verbal triggers etc into a mindless person or something not ethical.

tsk tsk tsk

they're still capable of work, expected to work and see family and have a life that I allow.. nothing aforementioned said by myself would indicate that they're denied these things.

sorry, but they don't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

But you go girl! LIVE that fantasy!

first off.. "you go girl' is so passé, i doubt *you go girl* would be said to a caucasian domina. secondly. it's not my *fantasy*.. it's the way i live and the way my slaves choose to live. what is a fantasy life for some may not be such for another. i entirely understand that not everyone commands nor demands the same things i do from my slaves. but to call it a *fantasy* is to trivialize our existence, the way we interact and how we want to be.

we live this way. a fantasy is unrealized.

life is not.

get it right.

< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 10/5/2006 9:57:11 AM >

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 52

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 9:54:09 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

I think all that we do involves a little brain washing ...

yup.

and i agree with someone else that said something about behaviour modification is a good term.. not all behaviour modification is subliminal. just like not all whips sting, not all cock play is torture and just like not all dommes fuck with their slaves' heads in a negative manner. the focus here seems to be on what CAN go wrong, rather than what can go soooo right.

i love a good mind fuck. i love making them see a paper clip and cringe thinking about the way i last used it on them.

personally, i prefer a more cerebral and daily interaction with my slaves. i love getting into their heads where EVERY SINGLE ACTION done by them, comes back to me.

just like they trust a domina with their flesh, they should trust a domina with their mind and very soul of their being. if i couldn't trust someone to take care of my mind mentally.. why would i trust them to take care of my flesh? you can't trust anyone that just comes to you from wherever or the streets or whatever. why do people see things so negatively when other aspects of S&M are relatively accepted? yet a mental connection isnt? i don't get that reasoning ... seriously. if you trust someone enough with your flesh.. why not your mind as well. it's all part of the puzzle and all the pieces make the whole of their submission. people should stop focusing on the negative because not all is negative. and not all repgramming or behaviour modification is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL edgeof reality

I rarely post on the boards here but I have spoken with EbonyFtshGoddess in the past and I thought perhaps a submissives view on the subject might be in line. I do not serve this Goddess but I have read her website and spoken with her at length about what she wants and expects from her slaves. It isn't for everyone- although it certainly may be for me. Some of us crave total control-and the control that such reprogamming can add to a relationship may be desired by some of us.

I feel that as long as the parties are going INTO it with a clear mind and an understanding of what the results can be it is perfectly acceptable- as to the affects on other people in there life that is something that is up to them and they should consider....and they probably shouldn't be signing up for something so intense and potentially permanent if they have a wife or other form of SO.

i don't recall this name, maybe you had another.. i'm usually good with names and i read your profile said this is a new name. email me so i can recall who you are.

< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 10/5/2006 10:03:09 AM >

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 53

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 10:26:54 AM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess
first off.. "you go girl' is so passé, i doubt *you go girl* would be said to a caucasian domina.

I thought you lived in California? The phrase was extremely common in the male gay community and also among teenage girls when I lived there. I don't really pay a lot of attention to whether somebody has a nice natural tan or not, but this phrase was definitely not exclusive to any skin color. I wasn't even aware that it was associated with any specific group, other than possibly with the gay/drag community in San Francisco.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 10/5/2006 10:28:37 AM >

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 54

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 10:55:48 AM

MstrssScarlet

Posts: 633
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Indianapolis, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess
first off.. "you go girl' is so passé, i doubt *you go girl* would be said to a caucasian domina.

I thought you lived in California? The phrase was extremely common in the male gay community and also among teenage girls when I lived there. I don't really pay a lot of attention to whether somebody has a nice natural tan or not, but this phrase was definitely not exclusive to any skin color. I wasn't even aware that it was associated with any specific group, other than possibly with the gay/drag community in San Francisco.

I'm caucasion and use the phrase all the time myself. I would guess that it's popularity has increased farther than you realized.
Mistress Scarlet

_____________________________

"Say, that hurts a little bit" "And you don't like to be hurt do ya?" "I don't know...kinda fun sometimes if it's done in the right spirit."
Jean Harlow in The Beast of the City

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 55

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 10:57:55 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess
first off.. "you go girl' is so passé, i doubt *you go girl* would be said to a caucasian domina.

I thought you lived in California? The phrase was extremely common in the male gay community and also among teenage girls when I lived there. I don't really pay a lot of attention to whether somebody has a nice natural tan or not, but this phrase was definitely not exclusive to any skin color. I wasn't even aware that it was associated with any specific group, other than possibly with the gay/drag community in San Francisco.

I'm caucasion and use the phrase all the time myself. I would guess that it's popularity has increased farther than you realized.
Mistress Scarlet

I would have assumed that it was long gone on either coast since no one here in Iowa has used it in a good 10 years or so.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MstrssScarlet)

Post #: 56

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 11:22:10 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

I think all that we do involves a little brain washing ...

I don't know, talking with some of you people and reading your profiles ... you all have dirty minds that no amount of washing will ever clean. ROFL

BTW, that's not a complaint - I LOVE YOU PEOPLE!!!! LOL

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 57

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 11:48:14 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

I thought you lived in California? The phrase was extremely common in the male gay community and also among teenage girls when I lived there. I don't really pay a lot of attention to whether somebody has a nice natural tan or not, but this phrase was definitely not exclusive to any skin color. I wasn't even aware that it was associated with any specific group, other than possibly with the gay/drag community in San Francisco.

yeah.. i'm a cali girl. the phrase: *you go girl* was coined by martin lawrence like 10 years ago.to my knowledge no one really uses it anymore except for gay dudes. it's really old and was intially used by black people to express an agreement or whatever. then it was sorta adopted by white people.. then later by gay males where it is still in use here at least.

either way.. it's passé and typically when it's used now by someone caucasian it's somewhat either outdated or patronizing attempting to *identify* with someone of a different colour. i don't know a single black person that still uses it past like 10 years ago. i personally don't take offense to it. but it's like somewhat tantamount to being called *girlfriend.* i don't know a single white person that uses*girlfriend* in their daily life here unless they're talking to a black woman and it somewhat annoys me. to use the words in a sentence would be like *you go girlfriend*.. umm. how often do you tell your friends that? probably not frequently. i know i sure as hell don't.. it's way old.

i'm not making a big deal of it in the least.. it's just a little outdated and it's not typically used in my everyday vernacular. it's not pejorative.. just outdated and annoying.

< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 10/5/2006 12:00:01 PM >

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 58

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 11:51:03 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess
first off.. "you go girl' is so passé, i doubt *you go girl* would be said to a caucasian domina.

I thought you lived in California? The phrase was extremely common in the male gay community and also among teenage girls when I lived there. I don't really pay a lot of attention to whether somebody has a nice natural tan or not, but this phrase was definitely not exclusive to any skin color. I wasn't even aware that it was associated with any specific group, other than possibly with the gay/drag community in San Francisco.

I'm caucasion and use the phrase all the time myself. I would guess that it's popularity has increased farther than you realized.
Mistress Scarlet

I would have assumed that it was long gone on either coast since no one here in Iowa has used it in a good 10 years or so.

once again we see eye to eye LaTigresse.

it's way old on both coasts. no offense, but it's usually used by white people that really don't know it's outdated., like WAY outdated. usually when a white person uses that phrase here to a black person we're like.. oh lord here we go. another outdated phrase still being clung to.

i don't care either way. i just rarely notice white people using it towards each other. eh.. either way... lol even if white people STILL use it towards each other.. it's still old here.

typically only gay males use it here.

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 59

RE: Is there a Mistress that can answer this? - 10/5/2006 12:46:05 PM

DiannaVesta

Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: dicipline2

I am just saying that all play should be bound by ethical and moral practices.

And who defines ethics? You?

Some people think assfucking is wrong. Some think same sex marriage is wrong. Some people think masochism is a serious mental disorder and people need to be cured of it. Some people think consentual slavery is wrong. Some people think eating any animal products is wrong. Some people think technology is wrong. Some people think that treating women as any more than chattel is wrong. Some people think taxes are wrong. Some people think this list could go on forever. Some people are right with that assumption.

No matter what you're doing, someone out there thinks it is unethical. Would you want them telling you you can't do it? Probably not. So who are you to tell someone else your moral compass is better than theirs?

I, personally, think it's wrong to think past your own prejudices, so I commend you on your ethics.

Yours,

benji

Exactly what I was thinking. Thank you.

Some people think that what I do is brainwashing and that I manipulate people. It’s easy to be on the outside looking in and assume this is what is happened. Part of what has made me the dominant woman I am today is my experience in understanding the D/s dynamics and knowing how to control a man. Call it reprogramming, hypnosis (guided meditation), manipulation, whatever they are all very closely linked in some fashion. If I torment and tease a man until he shakes and is so helpless he’ll give me whatever I want then what does that make me? Lol

The whole essence of this is CONTROL and what makes it hot. Responsibly we make the decision if we are doing the right thing and playing with people who are reasonably sane. Whatever that means! lol

_____________________________

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 60

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