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RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 5:31:30 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
Um, excuse me. But, Im very special. My mom said.


she lied.. and encase you don't understand the concept... go check out the Liar threads going on  *G*

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 5:31:55 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		Alright then.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 5:36:23 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
Um, excuse me. But, Im very special. My mom said.


she lied.. and encase you don't understand the concept... go check out the Liar threads going on  *G*


GASP!
And here I was about to put you on my CollarMeCrush list!
If I ever doubted whether or not you were a real sadist...telling a girl her mama lied, well, that's just hard core!

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 5:37:55 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

GASP!
And here I was about to put you on my CollarMeCrush list!
If I ever doubted whether or not you were a real sadist...telling a girl her mama lied, well, that's just hard core!


So that clenched it for you huh?  He is going to be near the top of the list now  *g*

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 5:39:40 PM   
wild1cfl


Posts: 567
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		What a very well written and well thought out posting. Thank you for posting it. I am going to copy it to several groups that I belong to and let them ponder it. At my old age I often just look at the Dickhead Doms and the rest and then turn my head and chuckle then walk away because it is useless to try and show them anything as they already know it all.



_____________________________

Wild

My Falcon now is sharp, and passing empty; And, till she stoop, she shall not be full gorg'd, For then she never looks upon her lure. Another way i have to man my haggard, to make her come and know her keeper's call. Wm. Shakespeare

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/9/2006 11:00:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
Um, excuse me. But, Im very special. My mom said.


she lied.. and encase you don't understand the concept... go check out the Liar threads going on  *G*


GASP!
And here I was about to put you on my CollarMeCrush list!
If I ever doubted whether or not you were a real sadist...telling a girl her mama lied, well, that's just hard core!


So I get her tied up, bruised butt muscles, flogger marks on her back.

And as I prepare to ejaculate into her mouth, I lean down and whisper...

"Nobody likes you."

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/10/2006 6:19:43 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I can't speak for Chris M.personally.
I have never heard him label himself as anything other than a Dominant.
He's been around a long time and is a hard working educator.
suzanne

Really?  He definitely bottoms for the right person and is very open about being open to those relationship, there were even some beautiful photographs that were hanging in the Crucible at one point with him as the bottom.

Hi LA,
Wow, in the almost two years I honestly have never heard of or seen Chris in any role other than the Dominant.
I guess it's usually at the presentations where he's been teaching things that we see each other so that has not presented itself before now..
I've actually only seen him play at the Crucible three times 
That's interesting he's actually a switch.
I had no idea.
suzanne
Am I confused?   Because I thought it was possible to be a dominant and still bottom?   


Hello There,
Absolutely you can be a Dominant and bottom in my mind.
My surprise is I didn't have any notion Chris did bottom, not it makes him any less a Dom in my  mind.
Just more of an interesting tidbit I seemed to have missed type of surprise is what I thought.
To me Dom, Sub, Switch titles have so many limits on who we are as people they just in word alone don't mean much to me any way.

My opinion of Chris M only changed in the notion that he does know how it feels from the other side.
I don't know him personally well enough to consider what ever position or title fits him in his own life any way.
suzanne

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/10/2006 6:25:51 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		People in the Scene are just people;they come with the same likes,dislikes, needs, interests, etc, as every other human being on earth,nothing you can do about it apart from be aware that you wont like, or be liked by everyone you meet in the scene and just accept it.

If things don't work out with one person are group, move on.


                         HalloweenWhite.

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/10/2006 11:47:27 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear ADomDoc, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do not think that being obnoxious, ego and some lofty attitudes as to mimic Gods/Goddesses of mythology and or fiction/fantasy, is in the male dominant 'gene pool.'  I have seen some rather pompus air bags in women, some even snubbing former mentors and the like.  But, perhaps they're snubbed as to prevent the mentors from spilling the beans on them on how phony they truthfully are.
 
I have stopped attending munches myself, as to disassocate with one such person at the sadness to not be able to mingle with those who I rather support and associate.  As long as somebody who treats the leather or M/s community like their own private sandbox and some pool for cheap labor (free slave labor) and the like; I will NOT attend any and all munches this individual hosts/hostess.  Like it was also mentioned, trolling for submissives/slaves; is seemingly the behavior that is tolerated and encouraged.  Something that doesn't sit well with me, when Pro-dominants are trolling for clients and mingle with those who don't identify as "Pro-dominant" but, very professional at what they do.  Because the person wears a sash, they think this is the right way to behave and, in my mind's eye--its more of an example of everything not to do behavior and attitude wise.
 
I've seen at other groups south of me, to which President of their group started a food fight, acted as silly as a 3-5 year old child.  Grabbing this and that genital on other--well, I am never going back to that group.  Yet, further west and central; the most polite individuals one could ever meet.  Southern gentlemen and ladies, very gracious indeed, the lot of them.
 
Good manners, good behavior and good table manners, e.g. not throwing food and acting like brats; is a welcomed relief in my mind's eye.
 
What I find, that nice people, like me --are withdrawing from the scene as it is embarrassing to watch and say nothing, as it isn't your place as a guest or equal status participant.  I don't want to have to be a parent with these misbehaving adults, identifying themselves as 'dominant.'  It is just embarrassing to associate with them period.
 
I do agree with you, that times are changing but, unfortunately; not to the better when it comes to being kind to one another, being from the heart and spirit of intent of things; rather--the change I am seeing in my mind's eye; is porn BDSM, fantasy BDSM defining the lifestyle rather than identifying it as 'an act' or 'fantasy writing.'
 
Old timers (Old School/Old Guard) I am sure complained with this current change of what was the newer 'guard' or newer 'school.'  Now, we're the ones who are OLD!  Younger are doing what we did, in changing how BDSM operates in general.  One thing though--we didn't get overly obnoxious, rude and or crude.  We acknowledged another dominant with a slight nod/bow as a silent salute and had some protocols carry over nicely in public and or private.  Now days, nobody seemingly wishes to continue the practice but, I do occassionally see such in the Gay Leather community still.
 
I do agree, that unless there is a movement to give dominants an attitude adjustment and behavior modification; as to stop the obnoxious behaviors and attitudes and be more civil; there will not be change.  If submissives and slaves don't enable such dominants--then there will be positive change.  I am not targeting 'role play scenes and the like but, the ever increasing mean streak that is getting wider still, which pushes the nice people out to the edge and at the edge of their tolerances to be treated ugly, inside and outside the dungeon and inside/outside homes and or in public venues.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 

(in reply to ADomDoc)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/10/2006 6:33:57 PM   
loriangel


Posts: 13
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		I guess you weren't at the club for his 45.5 birthday party!!! He took the birthday paddle well.

angel

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/10/2006 6:52:16 PM   
loriangel


Posts: 13
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		People are people, how we interpet what they say and do is up to us. There will always be those we don't think very highly of. Our opinions are as subjective as defining "pretty". Being as polite as we know is all we can do. None of us were brought up in the same way. Even within the same cultures there are vast differences. Our values may be the same, but how we go about our daily lives may be different. I value honesty, does that mean that the so called "white lies" make a person a liar? It would to a person of concrete thought. The differences make us human, and humans are faulty.

Keep your own values, do unto others... etc... in the end you answer for yourself, not your community.

angel

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/11/2006 10:21:52 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

Subject: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - (Permission given to repost.)

Enforcing play standards in public venues are good things, but I would say that while we can and should show tolerance for each other's activities and predelictions, I really don't believe tolerance should be the rule when blatantly destructive and even violent activites are taking place.

I believe it's all well and good to maintain the air of civility. I appreciate civility very much. However, more than extended civility, what is lacking is the awareness and an assuredness that if one is uncivil, there will be a bigger cost to bear.

It is my belief that there are far far too many of us that can relate, in our own communities, activities that have happened wherein someone who is patently unsafe, keeps coming back and back and back. And for those of us who have been at the receiving end of their attentions, cliques, inordinate boundaries and airs of exclusivity are the defenses we engage in when the community that we've always heard would be there for us, fails yet again to recognize the difference between tolerance for our kinks and safety of its members.

Until people are ready to step up to that responsibility, I don't believe anything will really change - no matter how much I might hope they might.

juliet


Some of the stuff you describe sounds to me much less like a community and more like Spanky's on Saturday night i.e., this is no different than the usual assortment of tweakers, burn outs, and malevolent stiff dicks you're gonna find at any dive in America - no vision, no soul, just a big, stupid melee.

The only answer that I can see, is to identify the people that can maintain, and arrange to meet in a setting you can control. I feel that there is a certain dignity to wiiwd, it isn't barbarism, it's civilized Barbarism: the ritualization of the ahor, the ancient horror: it's both cathartic ritual and good dirty fun.

I mean, if I want to hang with a bunch of drunken assholes, I've already been to every dive in town: it's straight up ssdd, and while it can be amusing if you can find the wags - it ain't all that.


(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/11/2006 7:38:02 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros


The only answer that I can see, is to identify the people that can maintain, and arrange to meet in a setting you can control. I feel that there is a certain dignity to wiiwd, it isn't barbarism, it's civilized Barbarism: the ritualization of the ahor, the ancient horror: it's both cathartic ritual and good dirty fun.

I mean, if I want to hang with a bunch of drunken assholes, I've already been to every dive in town: it's straight up ssdd, and while it can be amusing if you can find the wags - it ain't all that.




Ahh,  but then, you'd be one of those dreaded cliques that the author of the essay talked about. You'd be imperious and all that other stuff. And that's exactly what bothered me about the essay that began this thread.

On one hand, we're supposed to  be oh so tolerant and accepting. We are presumed to have honor and integrity and all that other stuff. The reality however, is that in general, we don't. The other issue, and in my mind, a valid one, is that when those of us who attempt to practice what we preach gather together with some assurances of the comfort of living like this, we're accused of being cliques, of hugging just to get other people upset, and all that.

I don't understand the mindset that says we're supposed to be so tolerant that we forego common sense. And I really don't understand how this blatant and blind tolerance with little to no oversight, and no consequences for destructive behavior is somehow supposed to uphold the credo of "safe, sane and consensual." It really just makes no sense to me at all. 

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 10/11/2006 7:42:02 PM >

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 8:48:58 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros


The only answer that I can see, is to identify the people that can maintain, and arrange to meet in a setting you can control. I feel that there is a certain dignity to wiiwd, it isn't barbarism, it's civilized Barbarism: the ritualization of the ahor, the ancient horror: it's both cathartic ritual and good dirty fun.

I mean, if I want to hang with a bunch of drunken assholes, I've already been to every dive in town: it's straight up ssdd, and while it can be amusing if you can find the wags - it ain't all that.




Ahh,  but then, you'd be one of those dreaded cliques that the author of the essay talked about. You'd be imperious and all that other stuff. And that's exactly what bothered me about the essay that began this thread.

On one hand, we're supposed to  be oh so tolerant and accepting. We are presumed to have honor and integrity and all that other stuff. The reality however, is that in general, we don't. The other issue, and in my mind, a valid one, is that when those of us who attempt to practice what we preach gather together with some assurances of the comfort of living like this, we're accused of being cliques, of hugging just to get other people upset, and all that.

I don't understand the mindset that says we're supposed to be so tolerant that we forego common sense. And I really don't understand how this blatant and blind tolerance with little to no oversight, and no consequences for destructive behavior is somehow supposed to uphold the credo of "safe, sane and consensual." It really just makes no sense to me at all. 

juliet


Tolerating somthing doesn't mean you have to enjoy it, seek it out, or subject yourself to it - the situation here as I see it - and remember that I'm getting this second hand, there are no munches to attend here if I wanted to, so I'm not speaking from experience, but riffing off the bar analogy - you go to a bar, you meet people you like, you go back to party at somebodies house when the bar closes, no?

In this context, you may be forming the seeds of a new group - not every munch has to be open to the public, it can be invitation only - and yeah, somebody is going to feel left out if they hear about it, me probobly - I never get invited - but to go on, this gives you some control over the situation from the get go.

You could certainly tolerate selected crashers (like me), but now you can set basic rules as a private party: no unescorted males, maybe, which cuts down on the number of unattached males to cause trouble, etc. and as it grows, and if it grows, you can maintain some ground rules, and evolve cultural social controls that maintain order better than resorting to bouncers who usually start more fights than they break up anyway.

Thus, you can invite younger people, and introduce them to a more controlled environment where they can actually get their freak on instead of having to circle the wagons and watch their ass - get enough of these satellite munches going. and when you eventually meet up at a larger munch, some influence can now possibly be exerted.

The old have a certain duty to enculturate the young, but it's difficult to establish reasonable social controls in the middle of a melee - shit's already gone South, it's like trying to restore order in Bhagdad.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 8:56:59 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		Tolerance works both ways, is perhaps what is missing here - the trick is to address the worst excesses, and leave the esthetics out of it.

This was part of what I was origianally gettting at when I brought up Goreans - they have a certian very specific fantasy, with it's own very specific aesthetic - hugging might upset that aesthetic, but it appears that there are larger concerns that ought to be addressed first, IMO.

People do clique together, it's human nature - the important thing is to keep the lines of communication open so that tensions between cliques doen't upset the overall group dynamic. A munch at my house for example, is going to be limited to maybe a dozen people max - I don't have the physical space for any more. Nor do I want to end playing policman the whole night, fuck that. i.e., you can plan strategy when sceneing, which is kind of a clique, or at mini munches, and coordinate between scenes to exert some low pressure inflence at a munch.

Ideally, I think a munch ought to have something for everyone, and room for every reasonable aesthetic, i.e., that doesn't involve violating peoples space in annoying ways, playing grabass, etc.

If that aesthetic is insistant, find a way to incorporate it, volunteer serving wenches, or whatever, make the grabasses supply their own, give 'em something to think about.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/12/2006 9:08:06 AM >

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 11:51:45 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I feel like I just read War&Peace. There are some long winded people in here. Cant you just skip all the clutter and put this in one paragraph. Simplify people.

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 5:48:42 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I feel like I just read War&Peace. There are some long winded people in here. Cant you just skip all the clutter and put this in one paragraph. Simplify people.


Actually...no, I can't skip all of what you call clutter and put it into one paragraph. If I did that, someone would come along and criticize because I'm being cryptic. So I opt to fully explain myself from the beginning.

As far as the advice about how to go about beginning new munches etc...that's very far from the point. The original complaint is that people don't know how to be polite anymore. I was stating that, it is much closer to the point to understand that tolerance - without consequences - actually breeds all the things everyone keeps on complaining about. I'm not talking about deciding between two people. I'm talking about making sure that both don't attend until they can act like adults and maintain a sense of control over themselves and what they do and say.

When people feel the freedom to do as they please - they will, even when it means being rude. When people don't feel safe, it means they will stay away or clique up, and until both these situations are rectified, I don't think you'll see things changing one little bit.

Now see? All of that could have been said with a simple "no" but then, you'd not have understood why.

juliet

(in reply to Dnomyar)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 6:16:26 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Tolerance, as it relates to the lifestyle, has historically referred to one's fetishes, kinks, etc.  Tolerance is not "force shield" protecting people from community expectations for behavior, civility, etc.  Not all things are tolerable, nor should they be.
 
And I quite agree with you, juliet... tolerate bad behavior and that's surely what you'll get plenty of.  I don't have children myself, but I suspect that those of you who do can relate to that fact.

 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/12/2006 6:18:27 PM >

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/12/2006 7:53:10 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Having a child I can definitely relate, and I do not tolerate uncivil behavior in my offspring, such as telling other people what they should say or do nonconsensually.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - 10/15/2006 11:27:27 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		So far, I haven't spoken about limiting what others can say. The examples I gave have to do with blatantly destructive behavior. (i.e.: the keying of someone's car, the beating up of the submissive in the parking lot). However, in a public situation, if arguments occur that have the potential of causing enough drama to incite the drawing up of sides, then no one's saying they can't do that. They just shouldn't be able to do it within the confines of that public function. And choosing not to choose sides but to make sure that both participants are treated fairly, they both need to take time to remember they are no longer in high school and that public arenas, events and venues are not the place for private conversations.

That's what people here have started doing. In one venue there is a strict policy in effect. If badmouthing of anyone happens/is heard, the person doing the conversing will be asked to leave - immediately. I rather like that. Personally, I don't call that telling someone what they can say, but rather what they can NOT say...and that's an entirely different scenario.

juliet



quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Having a child I can definitely relate, and I do not tolerate uncivil behavior in my offspring, such as telling other people what they should say or do nonconsensually.


< Message edited by julietsierra -- 10/15/2006 11:29:14 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 60
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