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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 9:43:42 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover


Though I do respect what works in your personal relationship, the keeping an individual against their consent is kidnapping.  Using physical force to do so is domestic violence.  I think the general consensus amongst lifestylers, the greater society, and clearly the legal system, is that kidnapping and domestic violence is abusive.
 
I feel fairly certain in stating that as a fact.
 
Once a power exchange relationship ceases to be consensual, it is no different than any run of the mill abusive relationship.  And believe me, I don't use the term "abuse" in the casual context that has become all too common.
 
Interesting, that not long ago lifestyle slaves were said to have two rights/choices... the first to enter into slavery and the other to leave it.  Now you're reducing that by 50 %, and a hair's breadth from equating it with the detestible reality of slavery as practiced in our own history, and that still exists in some places of the world.
 
John


for us, the major difference between slavery as we practice it in the lifestyle, and the legal and illegal slavery of history and modern times, is that within this lifestyle, one can give initial consent to become the property of another person. however, after that point, that slave is no longer a free person with rights and the freedom to do whatever they please...they are property, and their fate is entirely in the hands of their Owner.
as for kiddnapping and domestic violence being acts of abuse....you are correct there. you won't see me disagreeing at all with your definition of abuse. probably the primary difference between our ways would be that we feel a Master has the right to abuse what is his (it's his property after all, he can do what he wants with it), while you clearly do not.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 9:53:58 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Ya know, and this applies to submissives as well as slaves, I'm also amused by those who say they have no safeword.  And in truth, they have no mystical word that is supposed to work like a magic wand to ensure that whatever maniac they're scening with is made to stop.
 
And yet, that's not the purpose of a safeword which is simply a communication device.  And as such, "stop you moron or I'll cut your testicles off while you sleep" is very effective communication, and safeword.  I have a friend that swears by "explosive diarriah" as a quite effective safeword, even for those Tops less enthusiastic about their use.
 
In other words, unless someone is simply unable to communicate (even bound and gagged, there are safe signals) they have the ability to use a safeword (ie: communicate).
 
Having sent the communication, what happens from there is (for better or worse) up to the Dominant/Top.
 
John

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:03:17 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
probably the primary difference between our ways would be that we feel a Master has the right to abuse what is his (it's his property after all, he can do what he wants with it), while you clearly do not.


Actually, so long as it's consensual, I wouldn't dare to characterize what others do as "abuse".  Though, like the idiot that consented to being eaten in Germany a few years back, I might characterize it as nutty and the person as unable to offer consent due to a mental condition.

"as for kiddnapping and domestic violence being acts of abuse....you are correct there. you won't see me disagreeing at all with your definition of abuse."
 
If you agree that kidnapping and domestic violence are abuse, please distinguish that from a slave being kept against her will and in a nonconsensually violent relationship.  Is it your contention that the single choice to slavery condemns him or her to a lifetime of servitude to someone who is criminally insane and abusive?  Or that all a Dominant must do is appear to be something they are not simply to elicit that single commitment?
 
Should be an interesting reply.
 
John

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:22:19 AM   
daddysprop247


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From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		it's actually not so complicated. one reason i was attracted to this way of life (D/s slavery) was the simplicity and absoluteness of it. a person gives their final consent...that yes, they agree to be the property of X. and that's it. what happens to them from that point on, is now entirely up to X. that is why one should not make that decision lightly...because this is the real world, and everyone may not be what they seem. know the person to whom you wish you to belong, and understand that even if you have made the wisest possible decision at the moment, people change and things may still be bad. understand just what the reality of your life may be. and if, after taking all of that into consideration, you are still unwavering...then maybe you have truly found your path, and good luck.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:27:28 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

that yes, they agree to be the property of X. and that's it. what happens to them from that point on, is now entirely up to X.


Sorry, if 20 years down the road X decides to hobble you by chopping off your feet so you cannot run you are going to agree to this? I don't think so!

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:28:32 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

a slave does not have any rights, including the right to leave.


I think you would be surprised how many rights a slave has to leave if they called the cops and stated someone was keeping them somewhere against their wishes. You may not choose to exercise the right to leave, but according to the law that is enforceable, you have that right and anyone that would deprive you of this right could be imprisoned.

Rights have to be backed up with some sort of enforcement or they really have no meat. He cannot keep you against your will, therefore he has no right to keep you but what you have given him...


it amuses and amazes me how many sincerely believe that legal rights always equate to actual rights. there are many (non-lifestyle, nonconsenting) slaves in the world today who all have the legal right to freedom from their imprisonment. the law is 100% on their side. however for most the reality is they cannot "call the cops", they cannot run, and their captors are not going to be imprisoned. for some of us in this lifestyle, that is our reality also. it's not all about what we may "choose" not to do, but what we in actuality simply cannot do.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:33:07 AM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		If you are speaking of a mental conditon as in mental slavery, I have no frame of reference and therefore cannot contribute. In THIS country we have laws against keeping people against their will in servitude, I am speaking of US laws. I am amused you find this amusing that laws have the backing of people called police officers who will arrest and jail people for kidnapping and keeping someone against their will.

Experiment: Call the police and tell them that you are being held against your will and see what happens?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:33:14 AM   
Rover


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Status: offline 		I don't want to be perceived as badgering you, because all I'm really trying to do is engage in an interesting conversation, which sometimes necessitates tugging at little threads in order to reveal the larger issue.  :)
 
Your reply really didn't answer my questions, at least not that I understood them (everyone is well advised to question my comprehension).

Is it your contention that the single choice to slavery condemns him or her to a lifetime of servitude to someone who is criminally insane and abusive?  Or that all a Dominant must do is appear to be something they are not simply to elicit that single commitment?
 
And I'll add a third one here.... do you know anyone that has actually endured under those circumstances for any length of time and remains committed to their service?  Or is this just an exericize in theory without real world application?
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/13/2006 10:35:27 AM >

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:45:34 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you are speaking of a mental conditon as in mental slavery, I have no frame of reference and therefore cannot contribute. In THIS country we have laws against keeping people against their will in servitude, I am speaking of US laws. I am amused you find this amusing that laws have the backing of people called police officers who will arrest and jail people for kidnapping and keeping someone against their will.

Experiment: Call the police and tell them that you are being held against your will and see what happens?



wasn't referring to mental conditioning at all...tho powerful, that's a whole other topic. what you don't seem to understand is that everyone does not have the PHYSICAL ability to pick up the phone and call the police, or get up and walk out the door, or scream for neighbors, or whatever. absolutely all of those things can be controlled by a Master. so while the law may say i can do this that or the other, the reality is, i cannot.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:53:58 AM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		So you are chained 24-7 and watched like a hawk around all the phones? Are the doors padlocked? I am not being snarky, seriously, I am not, but you are presently using an internet hookup, could you not contact someone that would contact a police officer to free you if you so desired?

There are people that are kept in sweatshops in this country or used as domestic help, they sometimes escape their imprisonment, many of them did not know they had rights to leave or were fearful to do so because of being deported, it does not change the illegality and immorality of such things. If someone takes their consent back, they have taken it back, and that makes it a crime... and I am sure most would agree with that, even "people in the lifestyle"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 10:56:25 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I don't want to be perceived as badgering you, because all I'm really trying to do is engage in an interesting conversation, which sometimes necessitates tugging at little threads in order to reveal the larger issue.  :)
 
Your reply really didn't answer my questions, at least not that I understood them (everyone is well advised to question my comprehension).

Is it your contention that the single choice to slavery condemns him or her to a lifetime of servitude to someone who is criminally insane and abusive?  Or that all a Dominant must do is appear to be something they are not simply to elicit that single commitment?
 
And I'll add a third one here.... do you know anyone that has actually endured under those circumstances for any length of time and remains committed to their service?  Or is this just an exericize in theory without real world application?
 
John


John, my apologies, i was attempting to answer your questions along with all further questions along that line, by making a universal statement. but to answer directly: the single choice to slavery "condemns" one to whatever life their particular Owner creates for them. if that Owner happens to be criminally insane and abusive, then yes, that means a life of servitude to a criminally insane and abusive Master, unless that Master for some reason releases the slave. as for a Dominant appearing to be something they are not in order to elicit the commitment of slavery from a person, well that would be very unfortunate, but if the would-be slave falls for it, that is their lot. again, that's why it's so important that people choose wisely, and do not make these choices/commitments lightly.

as for your third question, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by "under those circumstances". if you mean a situation where a Master may be violent and mentally/emotionally abusive, then yes. if you mean a situation where a Master has taken whatever means necessary to prevent physical escape, then also yes, i know of several slaves who have endured under such circumstances. as for remaining committed to service tho, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by that either. if you mean simply continuing to obey and stay in their place, then yes. if you mean being happy about it to boot, that is something different, but one can still be a good slave without being a happy slave.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:10:07 AM   
daddysprop247


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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So you are chained 24-7 and watched like a hawk around all the phones? Are the doors padlocked? I am not being snarky, seriously, I am not, but you are presently using an internet hookup, could you not contact someone that would contact a police officer to free you if you so desired?

There are people that are kept in sweatshops in this country or used as domestic help, they sometimes escape their imprisonment, many of them did not know they had rights to leave or were fearful to do so because of being deported, it does not change the illegality and immorality of such things. If someone takes their consent back, they have taken it back, and that makes it a crime... and I am sure most would agree with that, even "people in the lifestyle"


again, you are using the law to define reality, which for many people, myself included, it does not. as for "crimes", i am sure there are things that even you happily engage in which are considered "crimes" in your particular jurisdiction, yet that does not prevent you from engaging in them.

for myself, i gave my final consent when i agreed to become his property. there is no "taking it back"...my consent anytime after that point is irrelevant, as after that point i ceased to be a free person. i understand many do not take things so seriously in this lifestyle, and that is fine, but please respect the reality of those of us with different ways.
and i'm not going to describe to you all the details of my physical slavery...it'd bore me for one, and really would serve no useful purpose. suffice it to say that i cannot call the police or anyone else, i cannot freely surf the internet, and i cannot leave the house alone. even when he is home, the doors are locked from the inside, and i have no key. there is only one way that i can take it upon myself to leave him....and that is not a way i ever intend to explore.

as for immorality, i find nothing immoral about a Master in this lifestyle doing whatever is necessary to keep his slave tied to him, or doing whatever else to his property.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:20:37 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

 am sure there are things that even you happily engage in which are considered "crimes" in your particular jurisdiction, yet that does not prevent you from engaging in them.


Yes, it is described as consent, which what you are describing is nonconsensual if a person takes their consent back... very different things.

quote:

 
understand many do not take things so seriously in this lifestyle, and that is fine, but please respect the reality of those of us with different ways.



I respect the way you view reality, but if someone told me they were being held against their will because they consented 10 years before to being a slave i would help them get out of that situation because it would be nonconsensual

quote:

and i cannot leave the house alone. even when he is home, the doors are locked from the inside, and i have no key. there is only one way that i can take it upon myself to leave him....and that is not a way i ever intend to explore.



I hope that you are happy in your situation... but if you ever become unhappy and are outside of the house escorted... he can't stop you from running away and getting help.... just wanted to make that point in case you ever want to leave and you feel the need to get away...I am not saying you do, but just in case.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:38:57 AM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		Consensual nonconsensual slavery is confusing.          

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:43:06 AM   
Rover


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Status: offline 		daddysprop, I want to say this carefully so as to convey the information accurately, yet not do so offensively.
 
There is a fine line between the idealism inherent to something that has not yet occured, and the reality associated with its occurance.
 
I can think of many issues in which that statement is correct, a few of which are:
 
Pregnancy
Euthenasia
Found Money
Opportunity for exploitation (passed out girl, for instance)
Nonconsensual Slavery
 
Most of these are moral issues, and I would suggest that when slavery becomes nonconsensual it is indeed a very moral issue.  And not just for the nature of the relationship, but for the responsibility one has to themselves.  Self-preservation is (thankfully) strongly ingrained in us all, unless we suffer from a mental disorder.  And I do believe that a mental health professional (I'm not a doctor, though I play one on television) could make a convincing argument that nonconsensual slavery, as you described it, is a mental illness.
 
That does not invalidate the good intentions people may have with the idealism of perpetual service.  Nor does it imply that such intentions are, of themselves, a symptom of mental illness.  Yet, a line is crossed when one no longer "thinks" about it, and acts upon those thoughts.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:45:25 AM   
DragonTea


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quote:

and i cannot leave the house alone. even when he is home, the doors are locked from the inside, and i have no key. there is only one way that i can take it upon myself to leave him....and that is not a way i ever intend to explore. 

hmmm...sounds like suicide to stay.

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 11:47:28 AM   
fckmeimirish


Posts: 27
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Status: offline 		Some slaves crave indifference and cruelty, while others want affection and love.  Some desire cruel, verbally-abusive, imperious Masters, while others desire sensitive, loving kinksters.  The question of whether or not to please the slave begs the question ... what kind of slave are we talking about?  If the slave desires indifference, cruelty, and degradation, then on the surface ... the answer is no ... don't please the slave ... because that is what pleases them the most in the end.  If you have the type of slave that wants to be cuddled and cared for ... then the answer on the surface is yes ... please the slave outright.  In the end ... your goal as the Master is to identify what your slave truly needs to feel fulfilled in the relationship ... and then give it to them.  If you give them what they need ... they'll give you everything they've got.  I'm getting sick of the misconception that a Master is weak if they put any thought whatsoever into what pleases their slaves.  It doesn't make you weak.  The ones who generally are called weak are the ones who are trying to please a slave outright who is pleased more by cruelty and indifference ... and the ones who are mislabeled bullies are just the Masters who are trying to be cruel and indifferent to a slave that doesn't crave that sort of service and use.  Everyone has to get in where they fit in, but its all about mutual pleasure in the end no matter what the means to that end turn out to be for a specific household.  Just my two cents worth.   

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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 12:01:06 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Ok as usual picking this up from another post. Slaves. Should you please a slave?


It's not Himself's responsibility to please me. There are a great many things which I find pleasurable and without some sort of negative reinforcement to those things, no doubt I will continue to find them pleasurable.

Sitting on the front porch in the middle of summer and just looking up at the stars makes me happy, whether I am alone or sharing the moment with someone else. If I sat on the front porch and looked up at the stars and Himself zapped me with a cattle prod every time I did it, in time I probably would not get pleasure from the activity (unless I really liked getting zapped with a cattle prod!)

Happiness and pleasure are internal and I put them in the category of a personal responsibility. As soon as I set aside personal responsibility, then actions are required by an outside influence in order for me to thrive in that area. If and when that outside influence is no longer available, then I'm in a shit load of trouble.

He allows me to serve. I'm happy when I serve. If he did not allow me to serve, I would find my happiness from doing something else. He can't make me happy and I hope he doesn't expect me to make him happy either. I'd feel terrible if I thought he had to go through life and depend upon me to find joy in it rather than have the ability to find joy within himself.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 12:10:07 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

And I'll add a third one here.... do you know anyone that has actually endured under those circumstances for any length of time and remains committed to their service?  Or is this just an exericize in theory without real world application?
 
John


I'm going to jump in here much to everyones chagrin.  To answer your question - i do.  I know excatly what Daddysprop is talking about it.

Yeah and um doh.  It is possible. As for their happiness continueing in service - i've no fucking clue cos i dont get to talk to them.

Its real and its out there.  Is it abuse?  Well, i suppose if they arent "harmed" then no. 

but i must admit i DO have a very hard time getting my head around some one being "stuck".  There's got to be "some" way.  But i have been assured a million times over that there is such a thing as "stuck"


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RE: Pleasing a slave - 10/13/2006 12:18:04 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		several people in this thread have mentioned the issue of consent, which when speaking about one who is already a slave (and therefore gave their final consent), is a moot point imo. please understand, that not all of us operate under the guidelines of "SSC", or live this lifestyle according to the way someone claimed it should be lived in a book or on a website. my Master and i have ways which may be different from those of many/most here. and according to those ways, a slave's consent after that final decision has been made to be property...is absolutely irrelevant. if the slave has a change of heart, is no longer happy, wants to leave the relationship, whatever, that is of no consequence really because they are property until their Owner decides to release them...period. and i am not speaking simply of ideals and good intentions here, tho those are nice...i am speaking of reality, life. "the way things are", at least for some of us.

i know of slaves who have no means to communicate with another person outside of their Master...who are regularly kept caged for days or weeks at a time...who rarely see the light of day. for myself, tho i have such privileges as communicating online thru a few select websites, being left home alone, and going out in public with my Master, i have chains holding me tightly as well. julia mentioning running away while out...i would have to be stark out of my mind to do such a thing, as i am well aware of the consequences of such a foolish action. no, i cannot leave (and go on living anyway). but that was something i understood before making that last choice. my eyes were wide open...i knew what it meant to be slave. and i find comfort and security in knowing that my fate is in his hands, and that i cannot escape. now this was not always the case...i had my period of rebellion/struggle/suffering over my reality....but with time comes growth and maturity, and now the idea of any other existence (freedom) is horrific and sad to me.

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