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RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:19:19 AM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
There are those who would argue that knowing ourselves completely would lead to insanity. I'm not totally sure that I agree, but I do conceed that there are hidden motives that cause us to behave in certain ways. I've read that we have 3 parts: the inner child (gut level, primarl reaction), the robot (cold, calculating reaction) and the higher self (enlightened reaction) Working to allow more and more of the higher self to be exposed and operate in our lives, instead of the child or robot, is the goal. New Agers call this "increasing the frequency of our vibration".

Master Fire

Wow, talk about a mishmash of Freud and new age.

Or we could go with the whole duality system- female and male. Or the karmic system.

Or any number of "self structures" on how to deal with our selves and balancing within the larger world.

For me, going with the Freudian system, the child and robot is as much ME as the higher part. To deny any of them would be to deny who I am. For me, the structure is to balance and become ME as much as I can.

Yeah, I'm pretty eclectic...and I'm a scientist, so I'm most comfortable being able to label stuff and look at models and analogies. My friend/lover Conan is a Taoist...he's much better at being fluid than I am, but I'm working on it. ;-)

To clarify: I didn't mean to imply that we should deny the child or the robot (Id and Ego in the Freudian terms). Only that we should become aware and explore our Higher Self (Super-Ego), too. To deny parts of ourselves is to not work towards integration...in which there IS no duality...there is only self-identity, and hopefully, self acceptance. In more New Age/Eastern terms...we should work to balance all chakras (I work with seven). Denying or indulging some more than others leads to an imbalance and could cause dis-ease. In more Native American terms...we should be aware of where we are on the wheel physically, emotionally and spiritually (the will almost always be different). We should also be aware of both the Red and Blue roads and use/enjoy them because dream time is as significant as waking time. Totems and spirit guides are all here to help us do this.

Nah...I'm not eclectic. LOL

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 41

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:21:11 AM

Iskander

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Joined: 9/26/2006
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What is 'becoming me', are you/we not already you/we? We can only define ourselves by what we've been, not by what we will become... I think there's nothing wrong with just being because the problem with wanting to know oneself is that just when you think you know, the game changes...
One can only know oneself in hindsight, and I think that has little impact on the future... Sure some think that our past shapes our future, but that reeks too much of 'destiny' to me... If I shoplifted as a teen, am I destined to become a criminal?

In knowing I just am, I know myself...

Iskander...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 42

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:24:03 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander
What is 'becoming me', are you/we not already you/we?

I am me. And I will become more me.

quote:

We can only define ourselves by what we've been, not by what we will become...

I disagree, I think the definition of "self" is far more than "what we've been."

But NO I'm not going to attempt to give a definition of self. I'm not that foolish.

quote:

One can only know oneself in hindsight, and I think that has little impact on the future... Sure some think that our past shapes our future, but that reeks too much of 'destiny' to me... If I shoplifted as a teen, am I destined to become a criminal?

I think we know more about ourselves than just the cumulation of our past events.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Iskander)

Post #: 43

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:28:50 AM

Iskander

Posts: 264
Joined: 9/26/2006
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I am seriously intruiged...
I wouldn't even debate your view on this, feel free to message me on it if you could be bothered. No drama if not... :)

Iskander...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 44

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:47:46 AM

twicehappy

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

a dress that really does make your butt look like two Volkswagens racing under a tent.

O.K.....no fair...I spent a buck and a half on that cup of coffee and now to see part of it on the screen...

OK, sorry, just drop by and i'll brew you a whole pot from fresh ground starbucks beans.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 45

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 9:50:49 AM

HollyS

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Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

If the human race woke up in the morning completely unable to lie at first life would be an ugly thing but eventually you would only be surrounded by others who really wanted to be around you. No more YES men either.

And no "Yes honey, of course Santa will come." No "I believe in fairies," no "That was a super hit," and no "You're doing so much better" to a struggling reader. Lies can serve a postive purpose sometimes and an all/nothing approach will wipe out the good with the bad... unless of course you don't think there's ever such a thing as a good lie. That, however, is fodder for another thread.

quote:

Think about it, no one wants to hear "yes that dress makes your ass look fat" from a girlfriend they are shopping with. So your friend gives you the little white lie" oh that looks so good on you" and you pay a bunch of money for a dress that really does make your butt look like two Volkswagens racing under a tent.

No, but without the ability to lie, I would also find out which of my friends understood the use of tact. I don't want to hear that I look great when I don't, but neither do I want to hear "Almighty girl, your ass looks enormous in that!" Gratefully I have friends that do neither -- they are able to say "Well, I don't think it hangs right" or "I liked the other one better" or "Maybe something with a fuller skirt..."

It's been discussed in other threads the difference between constructive truthfulness and mean-spirited attacks cloaked under the "I was just being honest!" banner. The first helps people grow and do better ("You know, plum looks so much better on you than red..."), the second tears them down and makes them feel awful about themselves while allowing the truth-teller to feel smug in their superior knowledge ("That dress makes you look like two Christmas hams are superglued to your ass..."). One encourages, the other discourages. And surprisingly enough, one draws people towards you, the other pushes them away.

I don't lie often, but sometimes it's called for -- the rest of the time I try to make my truths as gentle to the reciever as possible. Would that everyone considered the feelings of those they address before being "completly honest."

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 46

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 10:00:04 AM

sublizzie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS
the second tears them down and makes them feel awful about themselves while allowing the truth-teller to feel smug in their superior knowledge

I've often wondered if the "truth-teller" in that situation is telling the truth about the other or about their own character. One can find a kind way to tell the truth or a nasty way. Some people can even find a nice way to tell a nasty truth.

I always figure someone who finds a nasty way to tell a nice truth is telling more truth about themselves than the "truth" they think they are telling.

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 47

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 10:01:36 AM

behindmirrors

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Joined: 8/5/2006
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I would not want a transparency button installed on me. First off, I think it would give me too much worry about what I was thinking- I would know people were able to see it, and thus, I think my thoughts would begin to change out of protection of myself. Secondly, it's not a good idea for someone to be able to see inside my head- I need a retreat, and I think I can conjure up some pretty off-the-wall, scary, and strange things, occasionally mean, too. If I didn't have that privacy to have my own thoughts, it would terrify me- that's my down-time, is the time I spend just sitting in thought.

I also would not like my Dom to have one. He keeps me in this aggrivating but delicious suspense (because he knows enough that my curiosity can drive me mad), and it makes the anticipation to know what's going on so strong it becomes a form of play for us. I like his surprises. I like having to guess. And for as much as sometimes I wish I knew what was going on in his head, I would rather he told me when he was ready than for me to know.

I think this kind of transparency would almost negate the trust between us. There would be no reason to have to develop trust, no surprises, no moments where we cuddle and share things with each other. For me, that would hurt, because it was that process of developing trust in him that lead me to become his submissive, and I would miss those times together where we do ask: "What are you thinking?"

behindmirrors.

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 48

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 10:13:46 AM

akisha

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Joined: 6/25/2005
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Not a chance. Some thoughts should stay safely in the recesses of you mind. There will always be times when you have a wayward thought that really is not a true feeling but just a feeling or idea at a specific instant in time. No one should ever see them or hear them. Heck even the person having the thought at that second can be shocked and appalled at themselves for them.

Ask any woman that has experience postpardum depression

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Post #: 49

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 10:17:13 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
Simply because the *truth* isn't always necessary. Sometimes it's *how much truth* at any given time and sometimes taking people's sensitivities and situation into account makes a difference. Sometimes you have to weigh up whether they are ACTUALLY asking for the pure, unadulterated truth or a lesser, slightly modified version of it.

agirl

That's the thing- with my friends and myself, we don't weigh up.

Now, my friends and I WILL occasionally say things like "We don't have to talk about this if you don't want to go there" or "You might not like hearing this, so tell me now if you want to go there" or "I'm not sure how to say this without hurting your feelings, so I can keep my mouth shut if you want"

But we're all steadfast in knowing if it IS said- it IS the truth. And that is a main reason we love and respect eachother as we do. And I know for us, we'd never want anything different. Again, I do not understand choosing to form a relationship with someone as a friend and having it any other way.

And again, I do not have many friends at all, this might be why if most people don't want the system I need for myself or accept their friends not being honest as I am with mine.

Well, I guess it could be argued that the fact that you give them the choice of whether to *go there*, or not, IS a *weighing up* of sorts.....You could of course just blurt what you think out without asking them at all.

The system you have is your own and what you desire or need and addresses your priorities.

Friendships don't all fall in one category for me. They aren't ONLY an * I love you* thing. I don't love everyone I'm friends with, nor do I have only one way of being with them.

Even so..........my Mum is a friend and I am content not to crap on her parade.

agirl

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 50

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 10:52:45 AM

agirl

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An example..........My daughter has been coming to the gym with me 4 days a week....She's been a big girl since the birth of her daughter and she's not a natural athlete. She's worked really hard and it can't be fun watching me getting results quickly and easily because of an innate physical blessing.

I've been telling her that I can see a difference in her, even when I couldn't really.....because I KNOW that's what she needed to hear to keep her effort and enthusiasm up.

Because I know her.....I KNOW that telling her that * I can't see any difference but it's happening underneath the flab* or * Keep it up, it'll happen soon* would not have inspired her in the way that my encouraging fibs did.

I KNEW that if she kept going at the rate she was, it wouldn't be long before she'd spot the changes. My aim was to keep her going long enough to do that. I was happy to fib and will happily fib again to obtain that result.

agirl

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 51

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 11:03:39 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
I KNEW that if she kept going at the rate she was, it wouldn't be long before she'd spot the changes. My aim was to keep her going long enough to do that. I was happy to fib and will happily fib again to obtain that result.

agirl

Relationships with relatives/coworkers/civil servants/anyone you do not consciously and willfully choose to spend social time with are a completely different context from what I am discussing. Trust me, the rules of tact, manipulation, lying, withholding information at will, social grease and avoidance are in FULL play when it comes to those relationships for me.

I don't understand that behavior when in relationships with people you FULLY choose to control having in your life or not.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 52

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 11:09:24 AM

KeirasSecret

Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
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If I shoplifted as a teen, am I destined to become a criminal?

[/quote]

No, but it may take you on a path that you wouldn't have gone on if you hadn't shoplifted.
k

(in reply to Iskander)

Post #: 53

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 11:17:33 AM

SlaveAkasha

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Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
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No, I wouldn't want either Master or I to have them put in. I have to admit, sometimes I would like to know what he is thinking, but he is usually happy to show me without me prying anyway.

I think there are some thoughts that aren't meant to be shared. We all have them, ones that we try to figure out ourselves where the heck they came from. I think sometimes it would even be a bit scary to be in my head, and he wouldn't happily not want to be.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss, and not knowing ones thoughts all of the time, is one of those.

Masters Akasha

_____________________________

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~ Tank Girl

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(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 54

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 12:12:42 PM

Lady Alaria

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Hmm, I find myself wondering, would it just be surface thoughts or would it include all context?

If just the former, I think it would put a serious strain on any relationship. And might seriously twist a D/s one. Not entirely certain, I've never gone as deeply into D/s or M/s as most of the folk who post here, but it seems to me that a large part of the power exchange is about _not_ knowing. I think a lot of it is only interesting if you don't know. And having all the insecurities of a top constantly available to a sub might do strange things, might make trust difficult, and would certainly make subspace more difficult to achieve. "Ah, I can let go now, S/He is now in complete control" would be a bit difficult if the dom/me was broadcasting a momentary insecurity. We have them, they generally go away, it's not really an issue, but if I had one, and they heard, and responded, and I heard it might increase mine...and....

-snowball rolling downhill special effect inserted here-.

Not to mention the fact that we'd have to constantly be second guessing our thoughts. what if they were misunderstood? Imagine a thought that was misunderstood being responded to with a kneejerk mental reaction and the possibility of -that- getting out of hand. Mental screaming match, and very hard to control. Relationships are about learning to communicate lovingly. We'd have to relearn all the rules. Might do, in time, but the curve would probably be pretty steep.

As to the latter, well...that's where you step into hive-mind land. If we can understand everyone's thoughts(or even one person's thoughts), there are no misunderstandings at all, anymore, ever again. If you really understood where someone else was coming from all the time it would become impossible to disagree with them about anything, really. You'd start having parallel thoughts, and working in tandem on the same idea. Playing devils advocate and trading places on ideas.

Eventually, especially with 2 people only, the link would tighten up to the point where the 2 minds would function effectively as one(possibly quite like the 2 halves of the human brain). Where there where once 2 minds, now there would be one. The ultimate joining. A seperateness of conciousness might still exist, but it would probably not be noticable to the participants.

Sometimes I wonder if this, in actuality _is_ the nature of the interaction between the 2 halves of the brain. 2 disctinct entities, seperate conciousnesses, that have agreed to fully share one another's thoughts and so act as such a single unit that each has forgotten that it is not, in fact, alone.....

This may be a part of the source for the search for our other half...

And yeah, I've thought about this question before.

-edit, typos, style, and a bit added-

< Message edited by Lady Alaria -- 10/17/2006 12:19:18 PM >

(in reply to SlaveAkasha)

Post #: 55

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 12:30:54 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

One can only know oneself in hindsight, and I think that has little impact on the future... Sure some think that our past shapes our future, but that reeks too much of 'destiny' to me... If I shoplifted as a teen, am I destined to become a criminal?

We have much more control over the future than we do the past. In other words the intentions we start each day off with often come to fruition. We intend to wake up, go to work, get a bite to eat, be nice to our loved ones. Now that may not happen necessarily, but without the intention to make the things we want to happen they rarely do.

I can determine my heartfelt desire is to actualize some aspect of my being, and the intentions and the actions that arise from this desire and thought have as much, if not more, power than what I may have done in the past. On one level every step I have take determined where I am today, but every choice along the way was at one point in alternate reality of the future.

I do not think it is a good idea to define ourselves by our past decisions, it is rather confining in my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Iskander)

Post #: 56

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 12:50:54 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
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From: new york state
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Oh dear, this discussion got really heady.

Anyone care to hear the opinion of a symbolic interactionist? To keep it simple, I already have a transparancy button. My 'self' is an emergent one and it only manifests itself in specific interactions, real or imagined. If anyone wants to 'see' into my head, all they have to do is interact with me and help me find formation. If anyone wants to hear my thoughts, all they have to do is talk to me.

Logically, I know this doesn't make sense but experientially, it seems to be the case, at least for me.

If I had a choice, though, I'd rather not be so transparant.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 57

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 1:03:36 PM

Lady Alaria

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Joined: 10/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Oh dear, this discussion got really heady.

Yeah, a heady thread. but I like heady threads. A fistfull of em makes a great handhold.

quote:

Anyone care to hear the opinion of a symbolic interactionist? To keep it simple, I already have a transparancy button. My 'self' is an emergent one and it only manifests itself in specific interactions, real or imagined. If anyone wants to 'see' into my head, all they have to do is interact with me and help me find formation. If anyone wants to hear my thoughts, all they have to do is talk to me.

Logically, I know this doesn't make sense but experientially, it seems to be the case, at least for me.

If I had a choice, though, I'd rather not be so transparant.

I think I have some understanding of this. I do a lot of my thinking verbally, a lot of my thoughts aren't really full-formed until I speak them with someone so my brainstorming often involves talking at someone for a few hours. Happily, mine comes with an on/off switch.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 58

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 1:22:13 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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You're very fortunate, Lady Alaria. I don't have a reliable off button, and sometimes I lose the code for stopping.

Its not that I talk too much, because I don't. But, when I do talk, I don't censor very well.

(in reply to Lady Alaria)

Post #: 59

RE: Transparency button? - 10/17/2006 1:26:34 PM

RedSavageSlave

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Joined: 9/12/2006
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I think this is a very good question and quite thought provoking..

I dont think I would want the button on either of us.. simply because part of the journey is the learning and the communicating and the building of trust. I dont understand Doms who feel that there has to be an all or nothing kind of trust from the get go..it is something you build.

If we all had this transparency button.. there would not be a journey.. it would simply be.. "take one look at me and know it all"..how boring would that be over time?

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 60

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