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RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 7:39:49 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I think the death penalty is the ultimate affirmation that our justice system is based on revenge for the victim and not focused on actually improving or changing criminals. I think it's an ultimate hypocrisy in suggesting that killing is wrong, unless it's to avenge a killing.

I'm against it as a legal option in return for a crime. But I do believe that conscious and willful killing of another or one's self is not always wrong.

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(in reply to cuddleheart50)

Post #: 21

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:04:43 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think the death penalty is the ultimate affirmation that our justice system is based on revenge for the victim and not focused on actually improving or changing criminals. I think it's an ultimate hypocrisy in suggesting that killing is wrong, unless it's to avenge a killing.

I'm against it as a legal option in return for a crime. But I do believe that conscious and willful killing of another or one's self is not always wrong.

There are certain Neo-Cons I might be willing to make an exception for, assuming they were tried by a secret tribunal, did time in Gitmo, were denied legal counsel, and not allowed to face the evidence against them.

But I am one of those whats good for the goose is good for the gander types.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 22

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:12:09 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Well, so far, it looks like most people are againist it.

Actually I'm very surprised. In past threads, there was a lot more support for capital punishment - But it's not over till its over.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to cuddleheart50)

Post #: 23

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:13:57 PM

Warpedsight

Posts: 9
Joined: 9/24/2005
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Maybe in certain circumstances the death penalty would be needed only as a last resort to prevent future murders committed by a particular individual; likely someone whose insane. But life in solitary confinement would likely also prevent this most of the time. It's kindof a tough issue because each case is different and each person is different and each situation is different and the matter is really not as black and white as some people might make it out to be. I really don't agree with how often it is used though, and i really don't like thought of rampant prosecutorial misconduct that may sometimes result in it. They obviously have dna testing that they can do but i'm pretty sure i've heard of cases where, for whatever reason, people on death row have not been able to obtrain dna testing to prove their innocence for whatever reason.....this is bullshit. Whatever someones views of the death penalty, it really doesn't seem to be the most effective deterrant. Maybe the country would be completely overrun with murderers if people were sentenced to life in prison instead of death, but probably not. I don't know about the rest of you here, but i dont really hear about all the murders on the streets of europe. But, how long has the united states been using the death penalty anyway? If it were really such a greater deterrant than prison time, one might think the murder rate would have declined dramatically by now.
So basically, given the fact that innocent people are sentenced to death and may not be given the opportunity to prove themselves, i'm against it. And if everyone who was sentenced to death row were guilty, i don't know, there might be cases where it would really be needed to avoid further deaths, like in the case of serial killers. But again, imprisonment may have the exact same effect. Maybe if there was some type of rahabilitation facilities that taught practical skills, the non-violent offenders might not be filling up jails and prisons and then, it might be more realistic to keep the truly dangerous people away from the general public.

< Message edited by Warpedsight -- 10/19/2006 8:15:30 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 24

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:15:02 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm against it, but I'm a Northeast out-of-touch elitist environmentalist, so who cares what I think.

L&M, are you trying to tell us that you're submissive?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 25

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:18:35 PM

akisha

Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
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I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper then keeping some of the serial killers and repeat offender child molesters and the likes, alive in solitary confinement.

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(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 26

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:22:22 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Well, so far, it looks like most people are againist it.

Actually I'm very surprised. In past threads, there was a lot more support for capital punishment - But it's not over till its over.

- R

Ranger, I'm for it!
But, if my taxdollars are going to be paying for it I want it done so that the public can see it.
Bring back public hangings!
"Oh Class, ...we're going on a Field Trip!"
They should have them in public parks so people can watch them.
We could make a day of it!
Frisbees, hot dog venders, softball games, games for the kids.
Maybe some music-"High-way to Hell!"
Bookies could take bets on how long it will take the guy to die.
Mark Twain saw his first public hanging at the age of 12.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 27

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:23:34 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

don't know, there might be cases where it would really be needed to avoid further deaths, like in the case of serial killers. But again, imprisonment may have the exact same effect. Maybe if there was some type of rahabilitation facilities that taught practical skills, the non-violent offenders might not be filling up jails and prisons and then, it might be more realistic to keep the truly dangerous people away from the general public.

Serial killing is not deterred by the death penalty. We could possibly learn a lot from people who do crimes like this to determine if there is something in their brain or genes that makes them apt to become like this and that is a valid argument to keep them alive... the dead do not give up their secrets.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Warpedsight)

Post #: 28

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:24:39 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

The problem with the death panalty, is that it starts out as something that should only be used for the worst of criminals ... but quickly becomes a political football used by politicians wishing to prove they are tough on crime.

(in reply to akisha)

Post #: 29

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:30:57 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper then keeping some of the serial killers and repeat offender child molesters and the likes, alive in solitary confinement.

OK.

So let me throw a hypothetical situation out for you.

A person is convicted of something like child molestation, etc.

Since you support it, you take your turn pushing the button which causes the plungers to pump the chemicals in to kill the person.

The doctor announces the time of death after you killed the person.

You take all this home with you.

Two years later, a different person confesses to the crime you killed that other person for based on his conviction. DNA evidence supports this person's confession, and a court voids the sentence for the person you killed and proclaims them innocent.

You would not feel the least bit bad or guilty for being a party to an state-sponsored, institutionalized murder of an innocent person?

I know I would. Too many people get off death row years after sentencing because new evidence comes to light. I feel bad enough that they spent 15 years of their lives behind bars for a crime they did not commit, I would feel mortified if I was party to killing one of them.

One innocent person murdered by the state is not worth the amount of money it takes to incarcerate all the guilty ones, in my opinion.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to akisha)

Post #: 30

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:32:34 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

don't know, there might be cases where it would really be needed to avoid further deaths, like in the case of serial killers. But again, imprisonment may have the exact same effect. Maybe if there was some type of rahabilitation facilities that taught practical skills, the non-violent offenders might not be filling up jails and prisons and then, it might be more realistic to keep the truly dangerous people away from the general public.

Serial killing is not deterred by the death penalty. We could possibly learn a lot from people who do crimes like this to determine if there is something in their brain or genes that makes them apt to become like this and that is a valid argument to keep them alive... the dead do not give up their secrets.

Julia, they've studied Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy's and other serial killers brains already.
The findings; "nothing unusual and no abnormalities."
I watched a program about it on A&E.
I don't think evil is something you can see or touch.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:35:07 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper then keeping some of the serial killers and repeat offender child molesters and the likes, alive in solitary confinement.

Actually the appeals process is more expensive that death penalty inmates get in many places than three hots and a cot would be for life. It is very costly to exhaust the appeals process. If you would advocate putting people to death without that process even more innocent people would be executed

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to akisha)

Post #: 32

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:43:15 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Julia, they've studied Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy's and other serial killers brains already.
The findings; "nothing unusual and no abnormalities."
I watched a program about it on A&E.
I don't think evil is something you can see or touch.

I refer you to articles on the subject, because that is just not true

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/tick/psych_6.html

http://www.newtimes-slo.com/archives/cov_stories_2000/cov_05042000.html

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 33

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:43:17 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The problem with the death panalty, is that it starts out as something that should only be used for the worst of criminals ... but quickly becomes a political football used by politicians wishing to prove they are tough on crime.

Boy you can say that again - They've overly demonized some real petty-ass crimes-- that punish the taxpayers way more than the criminals -- just to pat themselves on the back and get elected. I refer to it as ''Selective outrage''. - I despise ''hot button'' politicians.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 34

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:46:23 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

don't know, there might be cases where it would really be needed to avoid further deaths, like in the case of serial killers. But again, imprisonment may have the exact same effect. Maybe if there was some type of rahabilitation facilities that taught practical skills, the non-violent offenders might not be filling up jails and prisons and then, it might be more realistic to keep the truly dangerous people away from the general public.

Serial killing is not deterred by the death penalty. We could possibly learn a lot from people who do crimes like this to determine if there is something in their brain or genes that makes them apt to become like this and that is a valid argument to keep them alive... the dead do not give up their secrets.

Julia, they've studied Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy's and other serial killers brains already.
The findings; "nothing unusual and no abnormalities."
I watched a program about it on A&E.
I don't think evil is something you can see or touch.

So what you are saying is that the death penalty actually discourages serial killers?

Or are you saying the death penalty makes it easier to autopsy their brains for TV shows on A&E?

Please elucidate the point you are making.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 35

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:53:12 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Sinergy, I don't think anyone or anything can "discourage" serial killers, do you? Do you think Ted Bundy was thinking about his possable circumstances when he murdered all those women?
The death penalty is not about "prevention" it's about punishment.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 36

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:58:59 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I think that if they can cure other forms of mental illness or cancer or any brain disease... they can cure this one day too....

At least I am hopeful

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 8:59:32 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Julia, they've studied Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy's and other serial killers brains already.
The findings; "nothing unusual and no abnormalities."
I watched a program about it on A&E.
I don't think evil is something you can see or touch.

I refer you to articles on the subject, because that is just not true

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/tick/psych_6.html

http://www.newtimes-slo.com/archives/cov_stories_2000/cov_05042000.html

Julia, those studies don't prove anything.
What are we supposed to do, round up all the psychopaths before they commit crimes ala The Patriot Act and keep them in jail for the rest of their lives without ever having committed a crime?
We are incapable of saying who'll commit a crime beforehand.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 9:00:20 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Your show on A&E doesn't either

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 39

RE: Death Penalty - 10/19/2006 9:12:26 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Your show on A&E doesn't either

I didn't say it did.
Some people are just so evil and no-one really knows why, that we simply have to kill them in order to save other innocent members of society.
How about that "night stalker" guy out in your state? Would you even be willing to gamble the slightest chance that he'd escape?
Ten million to one odds would be way too high for me!
When are you guys going to gas that SOB anyway?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

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