RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 8:50:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
Is a wife seeing her husband walk down the jetway and seeing the plane taxi away enough?


lol. You are funny. Now be serious, please?


What on earth is funny about her statement? Apparently you don't find that eyewitness testimony to be dredible, praytell why not?
What happened to the people who got onto those planes then?



beamed aboard the Enterprise just in time....... sorry Rule! (you did tell me to get into sci-fi, so its your own fault LOL!)

E



ToGiveDivine -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:00:57 AM)

Fast Reply

Fine, I admit it - I DID IT

I flew all 4 planes and crashed them all, I set the explosives, I detonated them, I mind-melded with Bush to force him to take all our liberties away, attack Iraq and also to mispronounce the word "nuclear"

I also caused Kerry to botch his joke - muhahahahahaha

And this theory is better than anything else I've heard so far (except maybe the Romulans)



Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:18:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
What on earth is funny about her statement? Apparently you don't find that eyewitness testimony to be dredible, praytell why not?

Stef is a she? I had no idea.
 
What is funny about her statement? Well, here you have this husband and his wife who are intend on committing a murder, with him doing the murder and her saying: He cannot have done that, because he was at home with me all that evening! Whomever would be so gullible as to believe that wife? Only a moron would.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
What happened to the people who got onto those planes then?

Read my previous posts. I will reiterate: nobody got onto those planes.

Some of them may have died before 9 / 11, some of them may have died during the five years since 9 / 11, one of them may be living three streets away from you.
 
Arpig, are you perhaps dyslexic?



ToGiveDivine -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:28:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
What on earth is funny about her statement? Apparently you don't find that eyewitness testimony to be dredible, praytell why not?

Stef is a she? I had no idea.
 
What is funny about her statement? Well, here you have this husband and his wife who are intend on committing a murder, with him doing the murder and her saying: He cannot have done that, because he was at home with me all that evening! Whomever would be so gullible as to believe that wife? Only a moron would.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
What happened to the people who got onto those planes then?

Read my previous posts. I will reiterate: nobody got onto those planes.

Some of them may have died before 9 / 11, some of them may have died during the five years since 9 / 11, one of them may be living three streets away from you.
 
Arpig, are you perhaps dyslexic?


Maybe he doesn't understand gobblety-gook and "dee-dee-dee" logic?



Arpig -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:31:15 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Kindly explain to me why every single "eyewitness" who says it wasn't a plane that hit the pentagon is credible, yet those "eyewitnesses" who say it was a plane are automatically deemed to be liars.


I can, but I won't. I am willing to discuss information that other people have uncovered and publicized, but I will not discuss information that I have discovered and that is not yet publicized.

Total cop out. Put up or shut up. The moment you claim to have secret information that proves your point of view and yet won't reveal said info you have descended from somewhat gullible & misguided to outright liar. You sir are full of the proverbial bovine digestive byproduct.
quote:


ORIGINAL: Arpig
Why is it that the people who claim to have had family members die on the planes that crashed into the buildings are clearly government stooges who are operating under false identities,

They are operating under false identities? That is news to me. Would you please supply a reference, so I can read up about this claim?

You said, in your reply to CrappyDom: " There is no credible evidence that anyone was aboard those four flying objects. Why offload passengers that are not there?"
Thus you believe there were no people on the planes to be killed, therefore those people who claim to be the relatives & friends of the people who the Government claims were killed on the planes must be lying, and if the supposedly dead people didn't exist, then they must be operating under false identities in order to be claiming to be relatives of the nonexistant people who apparently didn't get on those planes, which apparently didn't even take off. If they are not using false identities, then are they just pretending the dead relatives existed? Are all the coworkers, neighbours, family and friends of the dead passengers all lying?
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
and the folks who say there is no proof the dead folks existed

That also is news to me. I would like a reference for that claim too.

I will let the words of others speak for them selves:

Rule:
quote:

Those on the flight? Who? There is no credible evidence at all that anybody was aboard those four flying objects.

quote:

Did not the relatives of those alleged airplane passengers receive a substantial amount of money?


On a previous thread, specificly this one: http://www.collarchat.com/m_342526/tm.htm
MHOO314 (Page 1/Post#3):
quote:


My teen has been an investigator and researcher on this very topic, she uncovered some footage almost 7 months ago and has been perusing files, photos, tapes, etc since then, many security tapes from places in the area were confiscated---we have come to the conclusion that there was NO plane

and again (Page 3/Post#58):
quote:

Where is the passenger list? Where was the memorial service for the passengers who died? Where is the lone sister or wife or husband of a passenger who stood up and said, my xxx died on that flight


I think that pretty much shows that there are those on here (including yourself) that claim those people never died, never got on the planes, etc.



meatcleaver -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:39:13 AM)

This thread is better than taking drugs!



Arpig -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:47:43 AM)

quote:

unless there were two people with that same name

Now that is clear proof, we all know that there is simply no possibility that there might be more than one person with any given name. I suggest you check out this link:
http://www.anywho.com/qry/wp_fap
or this one:
http://www.anywho.com/qry/wp_fap
Try it yourself, type in darn near any name you want, and odds are if your search area is large enough, you will get multiple results
quote:

Stef is a she? I had no idea.

According to the profile, yes. And in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, I will have to accept what the profile says, just as I have to take your word for it that you are a he.

quote:

What is funny about her statement? Well, here you have this husband and his wife who are intend on committing a murder, with him doing the murder and her saying: He cannot have done that, because he was at home with me all that evening! Whomever would be so gullible as to believe that wife? Only a moron would.

No, only a moron would assume that every single one of the people who saw those planes load passengers and take off are lying...lets see, many hundreds, if not thousands, of ordinary people all lying, or Rule has been painting with the windows closed again...I think I'll go with the later explanation myself, Lord knows he has provided ample evidence of some cognitive impairment.

quote:

Read my previous posts. I will reiterate: nobody got onto those planes.

So you have claimed...now kindly prove it, and posting a link to a site where somebody else makes the same assertion without any actual proof does not constitute proof.

quote:

Some of them may have died before 9 / 11, some of them may have died during the five years since 9 / 11, one of them may be living three streets away from you.

So you have claimed...now kindly prove it, and posting a link to a site where somebody else makes the same assertion without any actual proof does not constitute proof.

quote:

Arpig, are you perhaps dyslexic?

Nope, just a lousey typist, you on the other hand are clearly an idiot. You have on this post and on other posts claimed to have knowledge which proves your asinine theories and yet you refuse to reveal said secret knowledge. Until you do present that knowledge, the only possible conclusion that any even semi-intelligent person can draw is that you have no such evidence, and that you are simply lying your ass off.




Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:59:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Total cop out. Put up or shut up. The moment you claim to have secret information that proves your point of view and yet won't reveal said info you have descended from somewhat gullible & misguided to outright liar. You sir are full of the proverbial bovine digestive byproduct.

Your conclusions are illogical. Your misery is merely due to your lack of faith in me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
You said, in your reply to CrappyDom: "There is no credible evidence that anyone was aboard those four flying objects. Why offload passengers that are not there?"
Thus you believe there were no people on the planes to be killed, therefore those people who claim to be the relatives & friends of the people who the Government claims were killed on the planes must be lying, and if the supposedly dead people didn't exist, then they must be operating under false identities in order to be claiming to be relatives of the nonexistant people who apparently didn't get on those planes, which apparently didn't even take off. If they are not using false identities, then are they just pretending the dead relatives existed? Are all the coworkers, neighbours, family and friends of the dead passengers all lying?

Again your logic leaves much to be desired. Perhaps someone else will be so kind as to show you the errors of your way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
and the folks who say there is no proof the dead folks existed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
That also is news to me. I would like a reference for that claim too.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I will let the words of others speak for them selves:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Those on the flight? Who? There is no credible evidence at all that anybody was aboard those four flying objects.

Did not the relatives of those alleged airplane passengers receive a substantial amount of money?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
On a previous thread, specifically this one: http://www.collarchat.com/m_342526/tm.htm
MHOO314 (Page 1/Post#3):
quote:


My teen has been an investigator and researcher on this very topic, she uncovered some footage almost 7 months ago and has been perusing files, photos, tapes, etc since then, many security tapes from places in the area were confiscated---we have come to the conclusion that there was NO plane


and again (Page 3/Post#58):
quote:

Where is the passenger list? Where was the memorial service for the passengers who died? Where is the lone sister or wife or husband of a passenger who stood up and said, my xxx died on that flight


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I think that pretty much shows that there are those on here (including yourself) that claim those people never died, never got on the planes, etc.

Yes, but nobody in your quotes asserted that they never existed. So your statement that people did say so is disinformation, an untruth, a stain on their honor. Or perhaps one of your illogical mistakes?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Now that is clear proof, we all know that there is simply no possibility that there might be more than one person with any given name.
Silly. There are lots of people with the name John Smith or David Brown. What is remarkable about this person is that the person can be linked to another person that allegedly died in a WTC-tower.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, I will have to accept what the profile says, just as I have to take your word for it that you are a he.

So you do take my word for something because you have to? Please repeat the algorithm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
No, only a moron would assume that every single one of the people who saw those planes load passengers and take off are lying...lets see, many hundreds, if not thousands, of ordinary people all lying, or Rule has been painting with the windows closed again...I think I'll go with the later explanation myself, Lord knows he has provided ample evidence of some cognitive impairment.
Illogic again. I doubt that I am the first person to notice this characteristic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
So you have claimed...now kindly prove it, and posting a link to a site where somebody else makes the same assertion without any actual proof does not constitute proof.
No, I will not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
So you have claimed...now kindly prove it, and posting a link to a site where somebody else makes the same assertion without any actual proof does not constitute proof.
You repeat yourself. That is an ill omen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
you on the other hand are clearly an idiot. You have on this post and on other posts claimed to have knowledge which proves your asinine theories and yet you refuse to reveal said secret knowledge. Until you do present that knowledge, the only possible conclusion that any even semi-intelligent person can draw is that you have no such evidence, and that you are simply lying your ass off.
Illogical reasoning again. I am sorry that I aggravate you. Its cause, however, is not external, but is a part of you. I assure you that I am not a mean person. I hope that the stress will soon abate.



stef -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 11:30:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
I suppose that's going to depend on what you accept as "credible evidence."
A couple of days ago I said a corpse with matching dental and DNA, but last night I discovered that one of them died some time before that day - unless there were two people with that same name - so today even a corpse will not convince me any more.

It seems your burden of proof varies wildly when you'll immediately conclude that a blurry lump on a photo from a conspiracy theorist's website is a "pod that enabled the plane to be flown by remote control" but nothing will convince you that people were actually on those planes. 
 
Amazing.

~stef



Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 11:48:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
It seems your burden of proof varies wildly when you'll immediately conclude that a blurry lump on a photo from a conspiracy theorist's website is a "pod that enabled the plane to be flown by remote control" but nothing will convince you that people were actually on those planes. 

Amazing.

Amazing? I consider your comment pretty amazing - warped, I would say.
 
Now, what has happened to sissify?



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 11:52:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Kindly explain to me why every single "eyewitness" who says it wasn't a plane that hit the pentagon is credible, yet those "eyewitnesses" who say it was a plane are automatically deemed to be liars.

quote:

i think this is rule:
I can, but I won't. I am willing to discuss information that other people have uncovered and publicized, but I will not discuss information that I have discovered and that is not yet publicized.

Total cop out. Put up or shut up. The moment you claim to have secret information that proves your point of view and yet won't reveal said info you have descended from somewhat gullible & misguided to outright liar. You sir are full of the proverbial bovine digestive byproduct.


So whats up with this shit ar?
i already gave you an answer to this question, how many times are you going to continue to ask the same damn thing?  Secret information or not there are several factors, physics impossibilities, that combine to show you from evidence that no 767 hit the pentagon.

As i said before that the evidence must match the witness or it is bullshit like it or not and the evidence does not match.  to bad so sad and there is nothing you can do aside from providing PHYSICAL counter evidence can change that fact.

First a large aircraft cannot be controlled at that speed that close to the ground over that distance.  There were not 9 foot tall rotors. the hole was to fucking small to fit a 767 through it.

none of us that i am aware of have a problem if you try to convice us it was a global hawk with a tomahawk attached at least that is physically possible, but not the 767 as you want us to believe.

What more do you want?  If you have problems with that then you supply the damn PHYSICAL proof to the contrary.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Why is it that the people who claim to have had family members die on the planes that crashed into the buildings are clearly government stooges who are operating under false identities,

quote:

i think this is rule:
They are operating under false identities? That is news to me. Would you please supply a reference, so I can read up about this claim?



I think that pretty much shows that there are those on here (including yourself) that claim those people never died, never got on the planes, etc.



Again supply YOUR damn evidence!!!

If you are so positive that the all holiest of holy us government is correct.  


you expect everyone else to supply evidence while you throw stones from your cave at what others say and call them names. That will accomplish nothing.  

Supply your fucking evidence that there were in fact people on those planes.  None of us have been able to turn up any evidence there were passengers on those planes so here is your golden opportunity to be a hero and show the world there really were people on those planes.

Again my stew friend from aa later that day told me it was all nothing more than a ruse, and since no evidence can be found i have no resaon to believe otherwise,

Thand and since everything else can be so easily faked unless and until you can produce a group of surviving families that i can give a phone call and interview you have no case what so ever.

So as rule said and i agree supply the families. That should be extremely easy for you to research if real manifests and burial records exist.



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 12:04:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
I suppose that's going to depend on what you accept as "credible evidence."

A couple of days ago I said a corpse with matching dental and DNA, but last night I discovered that one of them died some time before that day - unless there were two people with that same name - so today even a corpse will not convince me any more.

It seems your burden of proof varies wildly when you'll immediately conclude that a blurry lump on a photo from a conspiracy theorist's website is a "pod that enabled the plane to be flown by remote control" but nothing will convince you that people were actually on those planes.

Amazing.

~stef


fact is that boeing did just that prior to 911.  flew several touch and goes and landing and take offs and flew it around for several hours, then did a controlled crash for testing purposes.

What do we think autopilot is?  Its simply not that hard to do.  Coming up with nonexistant dead passengers are a little more difficult.

the only thing i find wild around here is how lazy people are when it comes to doing serious research.

What the pod is or even if it is a pod is inconsequential in comparison to no verifiable all the way to the grave passengers.

What i find amazing is how many people can not deal with the conclusions hard evidence provides. (especially in such an ovbious case as the pentagon)




Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 12:50:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Supply your fucking evidence that there were in fact people on those planes.  None of us have been able to turn up any evidence there were passengers on those planes so here is your golden opportunity to be a hero and show the world there really were people on those planes.
He cannot. I already know that there were no people aboard those planes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Again my stew friend from aa later that day told me it was all nothing more than a ruse, and since no evidence can be found i have no resaon to believe otherwise,

This is interesting. I wanted to ask you about that before. If you have pertinent information please mail me on the other side. I do not need her name or specifics. What I would like to know is what her motivations and those of her colleagues were, how long she had worked as stewardess and how long for AA (don't have to be specific, an indication is sufficient), and if she ever changed her views. Also if I may put the information in a text on the subject that I have written.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
So as Rule said and i agree supply the families.

I did not say that. There are a number of family members known. It is very hard, though, to dig up any - I emphasize ANY - information about the people that allegedly were aboard those four flying objects and about their relatives. I am very interested in such information, but it will not convince me that those people were on the 'planes'.



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 1:05:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Supply your fucking evidence that there were in fact people on those planes.  None of us have been able to turn up any evidence there were passengers on those planes so here is your golden opportunity to be a hero and show the world there really were people on those planes.
He cannot. I already know that there were no people aboard those planes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Again my stew friend from aa later that day told me it was all nothing more than a ruse, and since no evidence can be found i have no resaon to believe otherwise,

This is interesting. I wanted to ask you about that before. If you have pertinent information please mail me on the other side. I do not need her name or specifics. What I would like to know is what her motivations and those of her colleagues were, how long she had worked as stewardess and how long for AA (don't have to be specific, an indication is sufficient), and if she ever changed her views. Also if I may put the information in a text on the subject that I have written.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
So as Rule said and i agree supply the families.

I did not say that. There are a number of family members known. It is very hard, though, to dig up any - I emphasize ANY - information about the people that allegedly were aboard those four flying objects and about their relatives. I am very interested in such information, but it will not convince me that those people were on the 'planes'.


well if you found a few then you are doing better than i, becuase i came up with zippo.

No she did whats natural, called all her friends to see who was missing...and she couldnt find anyone, of course all the stews did that and they basically shrugged...

Concluded that if no one could find anyone missing then who was on the planes? 

Nothing more sophisticated than the buddy system really.

i havent spoken with her in a while so i dont know if her conclusions woud have changed...

They built memorials and plackards with namesof the people who died in the buildings but nothing for those supposedly on the planes.




stef -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 1:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Amazing? I consider your comment pretty amazing - warped, I would say.

Pointing out your incredibly elastic requirements for proof is warped?  Who knew.

quote:

Now, what has happened to sissify?

I don't know, it wasn't my turn to watch him.

~stef



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 1:53:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I did not say that. There are a number of family members known. It is very hard, though, to dig up any - I emphasize ANY - information about the people that allegedly were aboard those four flying objects and about their relatives. I am very interested in such information, but it will not convince me that those people were on the 'planes'.


i was not aware of that.  do you have anything on this for me to do a little research on my own or where to find this info?  So far i turned up nothing



Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 4:13:02 PM)

r1, you have mail.



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 4:38:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

r1, you have mail.


thanks



mnottertail -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 5:02:13 PM)

OK, couple times here at night I have run up some big posts on this thread only to have the CM forums lose their session and throw my genius into the fuckin WTC crater.

So, rather than a long pedantic set of facts, postulates, and conclusions with supporting evidence, I will point out the following:


I read on sites provided me by the conspiracy theorists that there was 3.2 million tons of   weight to the building.....yadda yadda yadda.......and the footprint was 330 X 420 feet of that building.........yadda yadda yadda..........

assuming that nobody will argue that the anybody from  ancient greece up to lets say the time  of Richard Feynmann  (I can never spell that fuckin' guys name right) is  involved in the government conspiracy due to lack of interest or some other reasonable interpretation--------

a quck ratio of those 2 uncontested facts (if they are uncontested, perhaps someone will come up with different measurements) from some government supported nefariously mindclouding website.......(like Arpig, that fuckin' realist)..........LOL.

Then going to conversion calculators (several.....in case they have my hose monitored as a subversive) and I don't know that they are on the "right" side of this.....(but they all came up with the same figure, so maybe that is in and of itself conspiratorial.....

the fuckin' weight of the building at rest on that pile will equivocate to a little over 30 miles below the earths surface or a temperature of about 1600 degrees fahrenheit.....

Add to that the friction of the building coming down  (I was too lazy to take a $19.95 calculator tonight (which I didn't) but may at some date in the future,  the weight of the ancillary shit to the building, the new york times newspaper X ???? (which I didn't) the pictures of the kids and the flowers on the womens desk (which I didn't) the computers, the phones, the gearing, the pipes, the ac, the hvac, the electrical, the ......yadda yadda yadda..........

Well you get the idea, what is a million or two (or more)  pounds of  mass between buddies? 

So, I am not surprised that there was fusion of objects and very fuckin' hot metal comin' outta that hole---------

Sorry, maybe I am just insensitive.

Now, before anyone takes up arms---

I am not interested YET whether the enemys that took that building down are foriegn or domestic............ but rather HOW that building came down.....once there are acceptable facts presented or barring that-- reasonable suppositions (as there will always be suppositions when you can't lay your hands on it and inspect it).....

At the expense of boring you once again, I will repeat an oft related anecdote; because it bears repeating:


Three people are traveling on a train from scotland to england, musing upon the passing scenery, the cosmotologist exclaims;

Look, there is a black sheep, all sheep in scotland must be black..........

The mathmetician intones;  There is proveably one black sheep in scotland......

The physisist with a weary sigh, mumbles:  There appears to exist at least one sheep in scotland of which one side appears to be black when viewed from a moving train........

Ron         



Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 5:23:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ok, fellas..I am afraid I am gonna have to call tinfoil on this motherfucker, right here.


since it appears there is general aggreement that it is the size and shape of another engine attached to the undercarraige..........then the only slingshot capable of launching that would be the arches in St. Louis...............so all we need to do is find a huge rubber band in somebodies desk drawer in the white house and we have our man........................

There is no way an object of that size would clear the ground, the running gear would be several feet off the ground------------and there is no anomaly in the undercarraige (as far as can be poorly seen) that indicates a doubling of the landing gear in that picture... something else afoot there, if it was seen in two other videos, do you have the link?

Additionally, if we go back to the squirting yellow gob.............and a close up is viewed we dont see the pixel distortion of that magnitude, but in this one the inset pixels are out of magnitude so that it is less clear than the finger purported to be the loch ness monster (which I believe in) of the thirties...................

I believe that to be an amaturish hoax picture as it stands, barring further and clearer evidence.

Ron  



i was just reading more about that object under the plane and one guy thinks it might be a shadow from the sun because the plane was at such a steep angle... now that would put the kabash on it being a pod...

Then rule brought up somehting interesting that i missed in the nist report.   He mentioned that they claim our little inferno that is bioling over is aluminum from the aircraft!

Well i agree that its aluminu mixed with iron oxide, but not from the plane....  that was self sustaining and i am guessing that you and i would agree that molten metal is not self sustaining....   at least i have never seen metal melt itself down in open air...  well except magnesium but than that is easy to recognize...



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