RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (Full Version)

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Dorsai -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:47:35 PM)

i'm not sure how reliable this information is it was given to me by my uncle right after 9/11 but he told me that the united states government had given some training to Osama Bin Laden. the government has its own way  of running things they have exceptable loses to meet there agenda if it meens the lose of thousends of lives to put more monny in the right hands and given certin people a pasition of power or given them a way to minipulate the american people into handing over there libertys and some of there fredoms thats just fine to the government that is not just exceptable that is coman practice.when you put a person like bush into the pot with the politics of government thats what you get a man who is more than willing to make thoughs to him exceptable loses  and ego manicale enough to make the suporters of the right wing movement thank him for sending there sons and doughters home to them in body bags its ok becouse to him it is exceptable .




Dorsai -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/2/2006 9:51:32 PM)

sorry this is dorsaisgirl1 i did not realise i was on my daddys sign on when i posted before these are my thoughts and preceptions and may not be shared bye daddy or may be in a different way




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:54:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

Well i agree that its aluminu mixed with iron oxide, but not from the plane.... that was self sustaining and i am guessing that you and i would agree that molten metal is not self sustaining.... at least i have never seen metal melt itself down in open air... well except magnesium but than that is easy to recognize...



I will first point out that sodium (a metal) is unstable in water---and is incindiary in the open air------------you are a welder and should know that.


next, aluminum mixed with iron oxide is the basis of thermite, and it don't look like thermite, it don't act like thermite,  (again the glob) 

First I don't know what the hell that is but I replayed that many times, and will again many times........thats why it is not a transitive statement or property to say fuel rich=oxygen starved..........

Do you have a stopwatch?  get a cheap one and see this for yourself.  Someone  on this thread corrected Synergy when he quoted E=mc * mc and said that at this situation is not atomic in general and is F=ma   So, we have a situation here of at most a little more than one atmosphere------the sea is right off the shore--- 14.70 psi .........plus or minus  maybe 1 atmosphere...........add the wind, because it is extremely evident there was some at the place where it burnt----------  give you one atmosphere for that--- 

maybe I have left out something, I suspect you will point it out. 
Now, if that is the case, the yellow blob cannot be thermite or any goddam form of it  because, if basic calculations are true based on avrogados law (the guy that did barometers)  and you LISTEN closely to the video that you supplied, as I said at the outset, there is  definitely a  anomoly at the cantilever that also  quite plainly sprays material in a downward fashion............time it an you can quite plainly hear the spatter as it hits........... given a vacuum the thing is dropping at 32/ftsec/ftsec.......resistance is at or above 3 atmospheres and therefore 45 psi .........no thud, but liquid splatter, nope that shit is liquid and hits liquid and thus is not metallic in any shape or form-- if I look closely and think about it, I am willing to accede that it might be freon (never minding the ball of flame), because the vapor cloud was instantaneously before the liquid and I would hate to have to tell my grandchildren that that little cantilever area was an executive bathroom (cause you know how much it costs to build that cantilever that high up?  (do you have any idea how pretentious that is) and  as an  add on in a  (built from 1960 to 1972  project, which I may or may not talk about later)  they may have stuck a bunch of pipes including an executive bathroom there? and you and I are talking about a low spot in the plumbing that sat next to a gas pipe with a flame arrester that failed? and that is a toilet voiding?  Sorry, thats not how I want my grandkids to remember me.......I do not think at this point that it is an event of concern in our consideration of that building folding.  or who did it. and for me, it is one and two in that order.

Ron 




yeh but that is consistant with thermite...  look at this video again and see where they compare the thermite burning to the yello blob on the tower...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8076200333701191665

firemen reported molten flowing metal in the basement talked about it flowing into the crevices...

i watch both parts several times and i frankly do not see a difference in the way it flows...

remember thermite stays molten till it burns out, it could drop five miles and continue burning and stay molten till it splats on the ground....

as far as sodium is concerned, yeh but it has no practical purpose here, either before or adter the crash...

that looks like thermite pure and simple...




aviinterra -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 5:35:34 AM)

I usually do not post on message boards, but this thread has me interested. I am not sure who did it, or why, but there seems to be an easier way to get to the source than looking at pixalized video or pictures of the buildings. How about the money source? Someone here mentioned that the U.S. govt trained Osama, and that is true, they indirectly used him and his men to create problems for the Soviets in the Afghan-Soviet conflict. The U.S. pumped money into the ISI ( Pakistani Intelligence office ), which further disbursed it to Osama. This is all well documented. Would it not make sense to check if they simply used Osama again to their own benefit if indeed this awful tragedy was caused by the U.S. govt?The highest intelligence Pakistani official was in the U.S. for a week long visit at the time the attacks occured.  I have little doubt that there were people on the planes, that the hijackers were real and as reported in the official story. Looking at all the evidence, it seems that maybe al-Qaeda was simply "helped" financially, as well as politically ( confusion in Norad, Atta's visitations of Republican boat parties, the purposeful deletion of information before 9/11 about men who would become the hijackers within the CIA, perhaps passing along WTC plans, etc.). I doubt Bush was in charge of all of this, he is simply the figure on top for now, whose reins are pulled by the man without a face none of us knows. But...I must say, the buildings did come down in a very odd fashion, especially WTC 7. There is some good video that you all can download here: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html
I have not watched all of them, but I have seen evidence #P200015, which shows the wreckage just after the collapse from a helicopter, as well as close ups of the towers as they are burning. You can see the damage to the  buildings exterior in the close ups, as well as weird flashes going on in one of the towers just before it falls. Warning: some scenes are not pleasant. Also, for your consideration, a theory I have heard: the flight that crashed over Penn. was supposed to hit WTC 7, and that the whole building was preprogrammed to fall as it did. But that flight encountered problems with the passangers and fell down too early. I don't know what to make of that, just heard it on the net.




mnottertail -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 8:16:47 AM)

yeh but that is consistant with thermite...  look at this video again and see where they compare the thermite burning to the yello blob on the tower...

Agreed that it is consistant with thermite, the problem with it still remains that it is also consistant with any other thing that is reflecting heat in the yellow range..........

Does not narrow it down any by exclusion, is what I am getting at.

Ron




Sinergy -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 9:49:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorsai

i'm not sure how reliable this information is it was given to me by my uncle right after 9/11 but he told me that the united states government had given some training to Osama Bin Laden. the government has its own way  of running things they have exceptable loses to meet there agenda if it meens the lose of thousends of lives to put more monny in the right hands and given certin people a pasition of power or given them a way to minipulate the american people into handing over there libertys and some of there fredoms thats just fine to the government that is not just exceptable that is coman practice.when you put a person like bush into the pot with the politics of government thats what you get a man who is more than willing to make thoughs to him exceptable loses  and ego manicale enough to make the suporters of the right wing movement thank him for sending there sons and doughters home to them in body bags its ok becouse to him it is exceptable .


Hello A/all,

Osama Bin Laden was trained to be a terrorist by the CIA under the leadership of Monkeyboy's father after the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Afghanistan.

Somewhere along the line, the Soviet Union went bankrupt and collapsed, and Osama Bin Laden switched targets...

Sinergy




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 12:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yeh but that is consistant with thermite...  look at this video again and see where they compare the thermite burning to the yello blob on the tower...

Agreed that it is consistant with thermite, the problem with it still remains that it is also consistant with any other thing that is reflecting heat in the yellow range..........

Does not narrow it down any by exclusion, is what I am getting at.

Ron


ok so then it seems we should be able to agree that a substance that burns with the same characteristic as thermite was burning on or very near the floor supports and a substance that burns and becomes molten in the yellow heat range is will melt steel.  is that fair?

i havent seen the flashes that aviinterra was talking about in this link but i will have to view them a few more times have you checked it out yet?:

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html







Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 12:52:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html


do you remember which clip you seen that in?  i viewed it but didnt pick it up?




Sinergy -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:00:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

I usually do not post on message boards, but this thread has me interested. I am not sure who did it, or why, but there seems to be an easier way to get to the source than looking at pixalized video or pictures of the buildings. How about the money source? Someone here mentioned that the U.S. govt trained Osama, and that is true, they indirectly used him and his men to create problems for the Soviets in the Afghan-Soviet conflict. The U.S. pumped money into the ISI ( Pakistani Intelligence office ), which further disbursed it to Osama. This is all well documented. Would it not make sense to check if they simply used Osama again to their own benefit if indeed this awful tragedy was caused by the U.S. govt?The highest intelligence Pakistani official was in the U.S. for a week long visit at the time the attacks occured.  I have little doubt that there were people on the planes, that the hijackers were real and as reported in the official story. Looking at all the evidence, it seems that maybe al-Qaeda was simply "helped" financially, as well as politically ( confusion in Norad, Atta's visitations of Republican boat parties, the purposeful deletion of information before 9/11 about men who would become the hijackers within the CIA, perhaps passing along WTC plans, etc.). I doubt Bush was in charge of all of this, he is simply the figure on top for now, whose reins are pulled by the man without a face none of us knows. But...I must say, the buildings did come down in a very odd fashion, especially WTC 7. There is some good video that you all can download here: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html
I have not watched all of them, but I have seen evidence #P200015, which shows the wreckage just after the collapse from a helicopter, as well as close ups of the towers as they are burning. You can see the damage to the  buildings exterior in the close ups, as well as weird flashes going on in one of the towers just before it falls. Warning: some scenes are not pleasant. Also, for your consideration, a theory I have heard: the flight that crashed over Penn. was supposed to hit WTC 7, and that the whole building was preprogrammed to fall as it did. But that flight encountered problems with the passangers and fell down too early. I don't know what to make of that, just heard it on the net.


Hello A/all,

I made the point on this thread, or possibly another one, that while I have real difficulty with phantom planes, nobody being killed in the buildings, doctored video on news shows, and a horde of black jacketted Secret Service men planting thousands of kilos thermate explosives (without being seen, of course) on structural columns throughout the World Trade Center to bring it down, I would not be overly surprised to find that Monkeyboy called Osama Bin Laden, told him to fly planes into the buildings, and fedexed OBL a package of box cutters.

Sinergy




mnottertail -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:04:48 PM)

agreed..............what do you think the liquid was?

But this begs a question, what was the point of doing that there (assuming it was intended and nefarious)? 




Arpig -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:06:50 PM)

Me either Sinergy. That seems a far more realistic conspiracy theory to me. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't believe the buildings were intended to come down, I think the plan was to cause some damage, much like the first WTC bomb plot, but that somebody miscalculated somewhere.
I am inclined to accept RealOne's idea of there being explosives of some sort on board the planes.




aviinterra -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:15:03 PM)

Real One: I don't remember which clip it was on, but I will try to check it out when I get home.
Sinergy: That's what stays on my mind- Bush & co. have gained too much by this. It made invading Iraq possible, and it is the perfect excuse for ignoring our constitution and rights. Also, Silverstein has made about 7 billion dollars on the whole affair, and New York city has lost a money loosing complex and can now build anew. It seems that everyone has made small fortunes out of this. How sad.
 




mnottertail -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:16:33 PM)

Let's not forget that in 1993 the same kinda crew blew up a bunch of amphenol in the underground garages and didn't get them down......................so they had some experience with those buildings...

But as a government lacky Arpig, you should be aware of that firsthand......


LOLOLOL (sorry I couldn't resist.......) If anyone of you has ever talked with him privately, you would be quite assured that he isn't in GWB's (or anyone else's) pocket.  

Advanced asking forgiveness, but it was so cute I had to say it.

Ron 




NorthernGent -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:31:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

I usually do not post on message boards, but this thread has me interested. I am not sure who did it, or why, but there seems to be an easier way to get to the source than looking at pixalized video or pictures of the buildings. How about the money source? Someone here mentioned that the U.S. govt trained Osama, and that is true, they indirectly used him and his men to create problems for the Soviets in the Afghan-Soviet conflict. The U.S. pumped money into the ISI ( Pakistani Intelligence office ), which further disbursed it to Osama. This is all well documented. Would it not make sense to check if they simply used Osama again to their own benefit if indeed this awful tragedy was caused by the U.S. govt?The highest intelligence Pakistani official was in the U.S. for a week long visit at the time the attacks occured.  I have little doubt that there were people on the planes, that the hijackers were real and as reported in the official story. Looking at all the evidence, it seems that maybe al-Qaeda was simply "helped" financially, as well as politically ( confusion in Norad, Atta's visitations of Republican boat parties, the purposeful deletion of information before 9/11 about men who would become the hijackers within the CIA, perhaps passing along WTC plans, etc.). I doubt Bush was in charge of all of this, he is simply the figure on top for now, whose reins are pulled by the man without a face none of us knows. But...I must say, the buildings did come down in a very odd fashion, especially WTC 7. There is some good video that you all can download here: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html
I have not watched all of them, but I have seen evidence #P200015, which shows the wreckage just after the collapse from a helicopter, as well as close ups of the towers as they are burning. You can see the damage to the  buildings exterior in the close ups, as well as weird flashes going on in one of the towers just before it falls. Warning: some scenes are not pleasant. Also, for your consideration, a theory I have heard: the flight that crashed over Penn. was supposed to hit WTC 7, and that the whole building was preprogrammed to fall as it did. But that flight encountered problems with the passangers and fell down too early. I don't know what to make of that, just heard it on the net.


Hello A/all,

I made the point on this thread, or possibly another one, that while I have real difficulty with phantom planes, nobody being killed in the buildings, doctored video on news shows, and a horde of black jacketted Secret Service men planting thousands of kilos thermate explosives (without being seen, of course) on structural columns throughout the World Trade Center to bring it down, I would not be overly surprised to find that Monkeyboy called Osama Bin Laden, told him to fly planes into the buildings, and fedexed OBL a package of box cutters.

Sinergy



For my money, the most realistic scenario is that the Government learned of the plot (not orchestrated by the US Government) and were left with two choices:

1) Nip it in the bud.

2) Allow it to happen and thus give them the opportunity to go into Iraq and secure all sorts of contracts for multi-nationals. They probably justified it by saying "sooner or later one plot will get through so we're only bringing forward the inevtiable". Thus, the fighter jets did not do their job.

Personally, I would be surprised if it was orchestrated by the US Government but I would not be surprised if they let it happen. Let's face it, the army that went into Iraq in 2003 did not take any experts in civil administration or reconstruction which tells the story that the Government was/is there for gain (at the expense of US soldiers, and if US soldiers are expendable in Iraq then what makes people think that 3,000 US civilians are not expendable in the eyes of the Government?).




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 1:40:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

agreed..............what do you think the liquid was?

But this begs a question, what was the point of doing that there (assuming it was intended and nefarious)? 


well i dont think that was intended to be seen by the public...  my suspicion is that it was planted well in advance in several places rigged for remote so they could rigger anything they wanted to trigger... 

Molten something...  it poured over the side almost like someone was using a giant oxy/acet torch on it...  i dont think what caused the melting is as important is that whatever it was caused melting of the structure...  its just that the most likely incederary of choice would be termite...

From my understanding the damage that the aircraft made was not enough to bring them down... and blowing the core i suspect would have caved in the outer mesh but i doubt it would have brought it down...

If you look at the construction it is extremely strong, in fact that was the first one of its kind and everyone else basically copied the design for many future buildings it is so good...

So in order to get the buildings down they would have had to do prep work on the fly and the only way to do that is incenderary properly placed throughout the building at strategic points with explosives also properly placed...

point is that i do not think we were supposed to see that burning.  There would have had to be several more all over the building to make it weak enough to do what it did and tho we did not see it the people inside reported it...  several people said that there were little fires all over the place throughout the building even on the lower floors where the plane did no damage...

Now to me thats a perfectly good laymans term for a thermite meltdown as they would not know how else to describe it and since they said there were many and on floors not sffected by the crash it seems reasonable that these little fires were incenderary devices set off through out the building to do the prep work to pull it.




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 2:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


For my money, the most realistic scenario is that the Government learned of the plot (not orchestrated by the US Government) and were left with two choices:

1) Nip it in the bud.

2) Allow it to happen and thus give them the opportunity to go into Iraq and secure all sorts of contracts for multi-nationals. They probably justified it by saying "sooner or later one plot will get through so we're only bringing forward the inevtiable". Thus, the fighter jets did not do their job.

Personally, I would be surprised if it was orchestrated by the US Government but I would not be surprised if they let it happen. Let's face it, the army that went into Iraq in 2003 did not take any experts in civil administration or reconstruction which tells the story that the Government was/is there for gain (at the expense of US soldiers, and if US soldiers are expendable in Iraq then what makes people think that 3,000 US civilians are not expendable in the eyes of the Government?).


it seems to me that if they closed their eyes to it that would make them an accomplice in th eplanning of it.




Rule -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 2:13:13 PM)

Quite.
 
There must have been a strong draft at that height, especially if the window was broken due to the fire on the floor above or because of impact damage. I suspect that that draft blew the flow outside, so that it became visible. In the other offices the windows were not broken or there was no draft and the burning thermite therefore was not visible from the outside in those offices.
 
So you think that the flow was burning thermite and not molten metal?




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 2:24:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

Real One: I don't remember which clip it was on, but I will try to check it out when I get home.
Sinergy: That's what stays on my mind- Bush & co. have gained too much by this. It made invading Iraq possible, and it is the perfect excuse for ignoring our constitution and rights. Also, Silverstein has made about 7 billion dollars on the whole affair, and New York city has lost a money loosing complex and can now build anew. It seems that everyone has made small fortunes out of this. How sad.
 


yeh thats a very good point....  the port authority was losing their asses on it as occupancy was falling every year and there were many empty floors.  So pulling it would do than a big favor...

The building had good ole asbestos for insulation which was used in those days and since has been outlawed so that would have needed to be painstakingly removed from all those steel beams and the building re-insulated...  another reason for pulling it...

Silverstien took out a 3.5 billion dollar insurance policy on it so he had planty to make....

The us gov can use it as a false flag operation so it was to their advantage to pulll it....

The people?  Well we get fucked!




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 2:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
So you think that the flow was burning thermite and not molten metal?

burning thermite is molten metal, iron + aluminuin, plus literally anything near it such as styeel beams, concrete will explode in flakes etc....




Real0ne -> RE: 911 - Al-Qaeda or Hoax? (11/3/2006 5:16:10 PM)

Then again no one touched this one yet which in my opinion is th emost telling.

The reason that i believe this is credible is that several hundred feet of huge monster i beams will not fall nicely straight down into a nice neet pile like wtc did....   They will bend over and hang over the street etc...

The only way to get hundreds of feet of steel to fall straight down is with explosives.   They said the tower vibrated for several minutes after the crash which to me indicates it was still reasonably anchored to the ground.  

Take a long strand of dried spaghetti hold it up and plick it with your finger and it will vibrat for a while then come to a stop.  however if it is broken in several places it will fall straight down.

Unless someone has theory on how to make steel beams fall straight into a neet little pile.... i am inclined to run with the explosives to chop it up as it was falling...

That combined with the many testimonies of nyfd, ems people and others in the building stating there were huge flashes. huge gusts of wind after the flashes, both above and below have so far convinced me that the combination of incendary devices + explosives brought the wtc buildings down....

here are a couple of quotes from my post 247 pg 13,
http://www.collarchat.com/m_656370/mpage_13/key_/tm.htm

I saw low-level flashes.

I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train

I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us

it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops.
there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down

I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.

and these are a very small sample of the over 503 quotes released to the public thanks to the new york times suing bloomberg for them...


So far no one has touched this huge mound of testimonies in this thread....




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