Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Master/Dom difference


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Master/Dom difference Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 9:14:30 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

The need to understand as one of those who 'earned leathers' or had the experience of 'earning leathers,' is that, although one Guard passed the torch to another generation, (us) and we in a sense are Guards also, the task is finding those willing to accept the torch and become their generation's Guard.  It is folly to think that our ways can be forced upon the masses, to which has caused our current Guards to remain rather passive until we're approached.  It was the old way anyway.  Those who feel their calling will seek out the Guards and only then can the Guards pass on all they have; as to allow that student and future Guard to carry on and maintain a chain per se to the M/s, D/s and S&M history.
 


No offense, but if the reference to "Guard" is one of "Old Guard", that was not exactly a term of endearment.  It was a reference coined to excoriate the older membership that fought to maintain the exclusionary practices which were inherent to the organized scene.  The term was used to imply that their opinions were dated and their time had passed.
 
I know the term has enjoyed a renaissance online as if it were a reference to an unbroken chain of protocols handed down from previous generations.  But that's an online fantasy with no factual basis.
 
Given your personal biography, I may be stating the obvious to you.  But it may be interesting and informative for others.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 9:15:19 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs
Although others practice the M/s, D/s and S&M mechanically, the ones from the "House systems" and those from the Gay Leather MC/Military veins; practice not only the mechanics but, also the meanings behind the mechanics of it.  Perhaps seeing the two differently, would be to see technical correct whip work and a whip master artisticly making their whips speak, work and sing for them.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs


And it would behoove many to realize that people of ALL types of protocols and styles, ages and backgrounds can "make whips sing."

The generation gap will make us all suffer.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 9:27:28 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

The need to understand as one of those who 'earned leathers' or had the experience of 'earning leathers,' is that, although one Guard passed the torch to another generation, (us) and we in a sense are Guards also, the task is finding those willing to accept the torch and become their generation's Guard.  It is folly to think that our ways can be forced upon the masses, to which has caused our current Guards to remain rather passive until we're approached.  It was the old way anyway.  Those who feel their calling will seek out the Guards and only then can the Guards pass on all they have; as to allow that student and future Guard to carry on and maintain a chain per se to the M/s, D/s and S&M history.
 


No offense, but if the reference to "Guard" is one of "Old Guard", that was not exactly a term of endearment.  It was a reference coined to excoriate the older membership that fought to maintain the exclusionary practices which were inherent to the organized scene.  The term was used to imply that their opinions were dated and their time had passed.
 
I know the term has enjoyed a renaissance online as if it were a reference to an unbroken chain of protocols handed down from previous generations.  But that's an online fantasy with no factual basis.
 
Given your personal biography, I may be stating the obvious to you.  But it may be interesting and informative for others.
 
John


Certainly The term Old Guard has been used disparagingly as well as with respect depending on the person using the term. The resurgence from what I've seen of researching Old Guard has at it's core the idea that tossing out all that exclussionary practice at once may not have been the smartest thing to do. The tossing of the old system certainly included parts of the baby with the bathwater. There were both real benifits and real costs to the exclusive systems, just as there are real costs and real benifits to the inclussive systems

I think some if not most of the resurgence is an attempt to find the middle ground.
The good old days and ways were not always all that good. But they did have some good stuff we lack today.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 10:00:32 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Certainly The term Old Guard has been used disparagingly as well as with respect depending on the person using the term. The resurgence from what I've seen of researching Old Guard has at it's core the idea that tossing out all that exclussionary practice at once may not have been the smartest thing to do. The tossing of the old system certainly included parts of the baby with the bathwater. There were both real benifits and real costs to the exclusive systems, just as there are real costs and real benifits to the inclussive systems

I think some if not most of the resurgence is an attempt to find the middle ground.
The good old days and ways were not always all that good. But they did have some good stuff we lack today.



Much (most/all?) of the "resurgence" and use of "Old Guard" as a respectful term is based upon factual falsehoods (ie: that there existed a "purer" form of the lifestyle with recognized protocols, customs, etc.).  And while each organization of the era (and that's what "Old Guard" is... reference to a people in time, not their protocols, customs, etc) may have had local protocols and customs (just as groups do today), they were not universally recognized by all (or even a majority) of groups (just as is the case today).
 
Apologies for the brief synopsis of this issue, but I'm fitting this in during work hours.  Having said that, the most that anyone can say was generally inherent to all groups of the time was:
 
1.  They were exclusively gay men.
 
2.  They shared an interest in the emerging American fascination with motorcycles (hence the "leather lifestyle", "earning your leathers", etc.).  These motorcycle clubs also provided a measure of "cover", as the laws of the time (silly as they seem now) often made it illegal for a gay man to be in a bar (they were presumed to be soliciting for the purpose of prostitution).
 
3.  They retained a regimented heirarchy similar to their shared armed forces experience.
 
Beyond that, not much more can be said to have been common.  Some groups used hankies to indicate their interests and position, but which colors and designs designated which interests and positions differed from place to place. 
 
Bottom line, beyond the few items listed above there just isn't anything one can point to and say "that's Old Guard".  The term really doesn't have anything to do with a "resurgence" as much as it does a bunch of folks running around trying to appear to be better than others (gee, isnt' that unheard of in BDSM).
 
John
 
P.S. -  I'm in complete agreement that having some standards is a great idea, and that a level of exclusion is actually a good thing for a group.  But gee, I wonder about how that will come about when everyone seems so intent upon excusing every imaginable thing as someone else's kink that needs to be "tolerated". 

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/2/2006 10:05:01 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 10:31:58 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		We have a disagreement then as to what constitutes things they had in common.
I think it's in the degree of similarity needed to be considered in common.

They shared common roots in the military traditions
They thus also shared a reasonably common set of values
They shared a need for protection from prosecution
They shared an ideal of finding a way to be both masculine and gay
While the protocols may have differed in details the details were often minutia:
We earn boots by learning how to shine them practicing on 200 pairs, vs We earn boots by leanring how to shine them with 1 pair to standards, vs We earn boots by shining  1 pair and learning proper care of other leather items including toys and clothing.
A slave stands to the left and behind vs to the right and behind
The degree of commonality tended to be in proportion to how directly it could be tied to the military values they shared before.
There were some fairly common things as well as some general things as noted by Guy Baldwin in Ties that Bind were they enforced to the nth degree everywhere, of course not. Were they generally observed in one shape or form in the various regional communities? best I can tell yes.
Now granted many try to claim a monolithic Old Guard standard existed when historicly it is not only debunked but impossible to have existed with the regional nature of the time period.


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 10:41:34 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

We have a disagreement then as to what constitutes things they had in common.
I think it's in the degree of similarity needed to be considered in common.

They shared common roots in the military traditions
They thus also shared a reasonably common set of values
They shared a need for protection from prosecution
They shared an ideal of finding a way to be both masculine and gay
While the protocols may have differed in details the details were often minutia:
We earn boots by learning how to shine them practicing on 200 pairs, vs We earn boots by leanring how to shine them with 1 pair to standards, vs We earn boots by shining  1 pair and learning proper care of other leather items including toys and clothing.
A slave stands to the left and behind vs to the right and behind
The degree of commonality tended to be in proportion to how directly it could be tied to the military values they shared before.
There were some fairly common things as well as some general things as noted by Guy Baldwin in Ties that Bind were they enforced to the nth degree everywhere, of course not. Were they generally observed in one shape or form in the various regional communities? best I can tell yes.
Now granted many try to claim a monolithic Old Guard standard existed when historicly it is not only debunked but impossible to have existed with the regional nature of the time period.




Actually, we don't disagree at all in what they had in common.  Each of the things you mentioned are natural progressions from the three main points I listed. 

But tellingly, it is not any one of those commonalities that are being celebrated by those claiming to "be" or to "adhere" to "Old Guard" today.  At least not in numbers sizeable enough that I have noticed them.  In point of fact, the fledgling "Old Guard" crowd (overwhelmingly) distances itself from the gay leatherman roots inherent to the term. 
 
You're preaching to the choir, Archer.  But it's not you and I that are claiming to retain an "Old Guard" legacy, and it's not you and I that I'm taking issue with. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:01:26 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I know we're not as far apart as we seem, but the onlookers need the exercise in civil discorse and arguing the facts without getting personal, LOL

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:30:40 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Gee, and here I thought you simply didn't love me anymore.  *sniff*
 
John
 

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:42:11 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		you two are cute.

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:45:12 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

you two are cute.


Well, mom always liked Archer best.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:45:30 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		What's scarry is that we've met I believe, LOL
I'm pretty sure I've seen him at some events

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:46:44 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah and look how that turned out she crippled me emotionally, LOL

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 11:50:42 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		yeah you  look like you are a mommas boy....

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 12:15:04 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

What's scarry is that we've met I believe, LOL
I'm pretty sure I've seen him at some events


Actually, I get around a bit.  Though you might not recognize me when I'm not wearing my fetish golf shirt (the black one).
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 12:18:00 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		You guys are too funny.  

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 12:55:11 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Rover, Archer, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Old Guard is in of itself a term and a mark in history.  In my sense of the word "Guard," the community standards of our generation and those following, will always take things from the past and borrowed from the past, just like the "Old Guard" did when tying in military protocols and such to the 60's and 70's. 
 
Indeed, there are things of value that benefits each generation and their guardianship of such knowledge, skills and values; to which inspired the "Old Guard" of Leather Gay men of their time and is worth visiting to inspire today and in years to come.
 
Touching briefly on it in prior posts, to where the sense of community was more than words but, put into motion.  Certainly, not all are able to help in specific ways but, connections might lead to those who can help in specific ways, such as medical care and difficulties finding solutions.
 
Things to which often get missed, to where we all are "Guards" when we practice, we teach, we mentor, we reach out unselfishly.  No leather and or lifestyle generation has it easy.  There are at times same problems but, manifested in a different way.  But, like any Guard, to those seeing from the outside, they see no need for "Guard" mentally/logically.  But, in a sense--Guards are family, a brother-sisterhood, in which the aspects of watching out for each other, helping each other and sharing with each other is more the 'mind's eye' I see as "Guards."
 
In my day, in the 1970's; it was indeed entrenched "Old Guard" Leathermen who were indeed excluding all but Gay men.  There were those cut from the same cloth but, saw there was a dire need for them to venture into the Heterosexual community to help uncover their own foundation stones as to create their own 'community.'  It wasn't undermine of the Gay Leather Community in doing so, nor was it undermine of "Old Guard."  But, it was that 'hand out to help up' mentality of Old Guard to which we benefit from and, in my mind's eye we would benefit more from, if more practiced it--rather than 'b_tching' about.  It is stepping "in" to help regardless if it is Gay Leatherman into Heterosexual or Heterosexual stepping into Gay Leathermen's community.  It isn't taking over either but, a form of rallying and supporting and withdrawl as to let that community go on about its business.  It would be no difference in a time of need, seeing Marines stepping in to help the Army.  When the Marines needed a bit of support, Army stepping in.  Its all the same 'mission' and that is seeing people finding their life's bliss (happiness) with all the loving and helpful support of those with like mind.
 
It all boils down about the care of other people, helping others without the intent to make a big pat on the back and draw attention to themselves sort of deal.  Many give silently.  Our attitude was, how may I be of help?!  The hope was always, to see budding relationships last for a very, very long time.  Masters counciled Masters, helping through times of pain, confusion or discovery, technique issues and or passing on new ideas.  Slaves counciled slaves, helping through times of pain, discovery, confusion, passing on ideas and helpful hints, especially when their efforts in bootblacking was hard to grasp at first, as well as leather care and such.  For Masters (Mistresses) and slaves a like; there was never a dumb question and there was never a sarcastic or mean response; even if it was asked 1,000,000 times before.  Sometimes, there was a pebble of information that didn't surface before, when answered, 9,999,999 times prior.  The, no better than anybody else attitude, is another gem that comes to mind; to which I would like to see more of.
 
Things like that, I would like the Guards to pass down to the next Guards.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 1:19:25 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

In my day, in the 1970's; it was indeed entrenched "Old Guard" Leathermen who were indeed excluding all but Gay men.  There were those cut from the same cloth but, saw there was a dire need for them to venture into the Heterosexual community to help uncover their own foundation stones as to create their own 'community.'  It wasn't undermine of the Gay Leather Community in doing so, nor was it undermine of "Old Guard."  But, it was that 'hand out to help up' mentality of Old Guard to which we benefit from and, in my mind's eye we would benefit more from, if more practiced it--rather than 'b_tching' about.  It is stepping "in" to help regardless if it is Gay Leatherman into Heterosexual or Heterosexual stepping into Gay Leathermen's community.  It isn't taking over either but, a form of rallying and supporting and withdrawl as to let that community go on about its business.  It would be no difference in a time of need, seeing Marines stepping in to help the Army.  When the Marines needed a bit of support, Army stepping in.  Its all the same 'mission' and that is seeing people finding their life's bliss (happiness) with all the loving and helpful support of those with like mind.
 


Sometimes I can be pretty dense (as has been pointed out freqently on these boards).  And although much of this post escaped me, this particular paragraph left me more confused than the others.
 
I have no idea what it is that you're trying to say, nor the historical context in which it's being used.  What is the historical reference for reaching out to include heterosexuals in order to "uncover their own foundation stones as to create their own 'community.'" 
 
I'm fairly well read and conversant in the history of the period (though by no means am I anything approaching an "historian") and cannot begin to understand this at all, though I hope to be enlightened.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 1:43:15 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Rover, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In the area I was in, we had a highly populated Gay community and a lot of Gay Leathermen.  There was a time, when Heterosexuals who were seeking their "lifestyle" came into the "Gay Leather Bars" and did not fit in and, to be gentle about it--didn't leave with a pleasant memory and or experience.  Heterosexual men didn't fit in with Gay men if you will.
 
That exclusion did present to some of the "Old Guard" leathermen a "need."  So, such leathermen stepped into the Heterosexual BDSM realm and offered their wisdom, their skills, protocols and such by doing among the Heterosexuals.  This in turn inspired Heterosexuals when seeing the 'magic' energy between a Master and his slave.  The sex wasn't at all a factor.  The lightbulb moment.  Heterosexuals had more of a BDSM and D/s dynamic going but; seeing there was more, could be more; happened because a few Old Guard Leathermen were willing to 'include' serious Heterosexuals and 'break bread' per se and start an exchange and got the record straight of what was "Old Guard" and those heterosexual men who were 'playing' and giving a pile of bull pile pies out, saying they were "Old Guard," as to be more 'attractive' to slaves/submissives--when all they where, was 'an old heterosexual horny man.'
 
These Old Guard Leathermen, gave of themselves to give a hand up to those Heterosexuals that sought much more than the kinky sex, swinging and BDSM alone.  It helped identify what they sought in a life's choice as much as a lifestyle.  It also changed some mindsets of being selfish to being selfless.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 2:12:29 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		I'm familiar with the works of Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean, Gayle Rubin, Jay Wiseman, Jack Rinella and a few others as it relates to this topic, but your personal recollections are a bit.... unusual.  Is there any historical literature that you can point me to that might provide additional context and insight to this process you describe?
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Master/Dom difference - 11/2/2006 4:01:21 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Rover, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I don't recall anybody writing anything down, it was just done in the area I was in.  Nobody is a 'big name' or writers--just people with big hearts.
 
We had individuals from the Gay Leather Community, like the DC Eagle, SigMa come to the Old BDSM haunts, which were at Gay Bars but, not known to be 'leather.'  The Crypt was the 'umbrella' that the Heterosexuals, mainly from Black Rose gathered to gather and have a place to do public play.  The Crypt was a casket warehouse (fitting name), it was connected to The Wet and The Edge.  It was later turned into The Crucible and headed by another individual, moving from The Edge and The Crypt, to Tracks and from Tracks to the warehouse in Southwest DC.  It is a few doors away from its first landing but, still operates still.  The Crucible does have an "All Mens party," to answer the needs for Gay Leathermen to gather, now that the National Baseball stadium has wiped out all the old Gay clubs.
 
Master JAU, a Gay Leatherman and title holder was often at a club called Bound in the 1990's.  It was predominantly heterosexual and leather/fetish club.  He was often seen and willing to talk to anybody who wished to listen to what he had to say.  We met after I had an impromptu scene and continued a lovely friendship ever since.  He asked me to do demonstrations for his many functions.  One is documented in The Washington Blade, 1997.  I was very honored that M JAU asked me to come into what was a Gay Leather Ball/Dance and met Master Doug Harris and other members of the bigger community.
 
S JofS, and his then boy, DM --both Gay, came to The Edge and to The Wet and openly scened with heterosexuals and also were willing to depart of their leather culture, practices, protocols and such; again in the early 1990s.  DM went on to win a title with the DC Eagle and passed on and will be 3 years in a few months, he passed on.  But, his SIR is one of my closest and dearest friends.  It was a thrill, to have S JofS, in the early days of our friendship, to have permission to use his boy.  This broke the ice in my mind's eye, as other leathermen watched on.
 
The small world, D EM a very active member in the Gay Leather Scene and often filling the post of auctioneer at the DC Master-slave conference, is also a friend of S JofS; and will add that D EM is always active with both the Gay Leather Community, as well as the Heterosexual community.  He has been giving presentations for quite some time and when he left an academy as a faculty member, I filled his slot for a time.  I will also add, that D EM met one of my 'brothers' with the Baltimore Eagle Trident Club and is still its President.  And, vouched for me to D EM, as to keep my personal history going. 
 
None of these individuals, to my knowledge, has 'written' books or such but, more importantly--they are real people, that have influenced the Heterosexual community, enriched the Black Rose Conventions and have encouraged more Gay Leathermen to walk among us and inspire us.  Change by those who 'start change' are not always the ones who write about it but, those who witnessed and or experienced it.  I'm sure that across the country, there are individuals who do make changes and make a difference, which ripple effects throughout the community.
 
For my area, these Gay Leathermen then in the early 1990s took the mystery out of what it was to be a Gay Leatherman, as well as to debunk the myths and the Internet "Old Guard" in chat rooms.  It established that you do not have to be Gay, to be leather.
 
Master Tallen, co-creater with his slave andrew; both Gay Leathermen saw a need for a new pride flag, to identify those who practice M/s and D/s.  Not everybody who practice M/s and or D/s are leather.  So, the M/s -D/s flag was created and introduced to the community at the Master-slave conference in 2005.  This particular Gay Leather M/s couple acted on their thoughts.  They aren't "title holders"--just two wonderful individuals that started with a vision to address a need.  I find them both rather humble about the M/s-D/s Pride flag.  I was just lucky to be a witness to the M/s - D/s flag's humble beginnings and the successful take off and accepted.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Master/Dom difference Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094