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Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 6:55:50 AM   
LotusSong


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When my friend's husband came out and she  said "fine".. he wanted to go further and  make love to her only dressed as a woman and without any "male" involvement.  She just couldn't enjoy it.. so now they are celibate    This was a marriage of over 30 years (and no, it's not me).  They basically live together now as "sisters".  This is the dilemma.  She misses her husband.  Of course, they met at a time in this country where it was going to be major taboo so "coming out" was not an easy option (like it ever is, eh?)
 
She tried it a few times but looking down to find a 'female', just wasn't appealing to her :/  And he will not do it without his alternate persona.  Divorce is not an option because above all else she still loves him..but this just ruined their sex life basically.
 
I guess the moral of this story is "Come out early.. come out often", I guess.  I know it's not easy.
 
I know Sissify will jump n here and I expect him to.  I present this because I have not seen this addressed yet.  This is NOT a "don't do it" thread.  Just speak your experiences in this line or offer suggestions. 



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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 7:20:36 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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We've addressed the stigma of cross-dressing often here- and it is a very real one.  While simply wearing women's clothes is enough to turn a lot of women off, this issue seems more about the person wanting to live and do daily activities AS a female.  Wearing traditional female clothing and living life as a female are very different things and I can see how that would create a big issue in a relationship.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 7:48:10 AM   
LadyOunce


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I think this situation goes a bit beyond merely cross-dressing. I know many males that cross dress both in and out of the scene but for many it's an enhancement of sex with "male involvement" not a substitute for.

Is this a case of him feeling he is a woman in a man's body or that he is merely so immersed in this alternate persona that he would rather live as her? If the second is the case, perhaps he needs to explore why he would rather live as her.

Either way, sounds as if they could definitely benefit from therapy of some sort.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 7:59:27 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyOunce

I think this situation goes a bit beyond merely cross-dressing. I know many males that cross dress both in and out of the scene but for many it's an enhancement of sex with "male involvement" not a substitute for.

Is this a case of him feeling he is a woman in a man's body or that he is merely so immersed in this alternate persona that he would rather live as her? If the second is the case, perhaps he needs to explore why he would rather live as her.

Either way, sounds as if they could definitely benefit from therapy of some sort.


He's now preferring to just having his hair and nails done.. the crossdressing is now more for certain events (speaking engagements).  He does as he will with his wife's blessing.. it's just the sex part of life just wass a non-negotiable issue.  She can't change her sexual preference.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 8:00:25 AM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

When my friend's husband came out and she  said "fine".. he wanted to go further and  make love to her only dressed as a woman and without any "male" involvement.  She just couldn't enjoy it.. so now they are celibate    This was a marriage of over 30 years (and no, it's not me).  They basically live together now as "sisters".  This is the dilemma.  She misses her husband.  Of course, they met at a time in this country where it was going to be major taboo so "coming out" was not an easy option (like it ever is, eh?)
 
She tried it a few times but looking down to find a 'female', just wasn't appealing to her :/  And he will not do it without his alternate persona.  Divorce is not an option because above all else she still loves him..but this just ruined their sex life basically.
 
I guess the moral of this story is "Come out early.. come out often", I guess.  I know it's not easy.
 
I know Sissify will jump n here and I expect him to.  I present this because I have not seen this addressed yet.  This is NOT a "don't do it" thread.  Just speak your experiences in this line or offer suggestions. 


I think it is a fine post.

Does it pre-suppose, though, that he always had these desires or that he knew before they married, or anyway long ago, that he would one day have these desires? Maybe he came out on the very first day he felt clear enough to do so.

Other's have posted about how their lives were enriched when a spouse discovered something new in him or herself well along in an established relationship.

It sounds hard for all concerned but I credit him for the some backbone in coming out and if anything I credit her even more highly for keeping the faith.

Might he be persuaded to get in bed as a man "as a kink" occasionally for the sake of indulging this weird little proclivity of hers? If she has accepted living as sisters it wouldn't seem a disproportionate imposition on him to "role play" as a man for an hour now and then. Just wash off the mascara, grit his teeth and lie back and think of England, as it were. Maybe even toss in some burps and complants about mising the game on TV for verisimilitude?

So it turns out that a guy simply dropping his robe after a good shower and and climbing into the old familiar marriage bed with a partner of 30 years can under at least one circumstance actually be limit-pushing edge play. One more strand in life's rich tapestry, eh?

Whether it is this or another, I hope a good way is shown to them.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 8:01:56 AM   
Lashra


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My sub came out to Me a few months ago, so we are just in the beginning of this for him. He was understandably very nervous about telling me that cross dressing was always something that he had wanted to try. He knows that I am very open minded and that I love him, so when he told me it was not a problem for us.

My sub is a macho guy, if you saw him on the street you wouldn't be able to tell he was any different then any other construction worker. But underneath his workpants are a pair of lacey panties. When he crossdresses he still acts like a man, he does not try to change his voice or act like a woman in any way.

So yes we've had sex with him dressed in his thigh hi's and such, it does not bother me. However if he were to start changing his voice to sound like a woman, if he were
to try to act more like a woman..then yes that would bother me. I mean I am bisexual if I wanted a woman, I'd be with a woman. But I love him as a man who just happens to like wearing women's clothing and finds that kinky.

I feel sad for your friend it sounds as if she's in a really tough spot. You are correct when you say "come out early" a 30 year marriage is a terrible thing to have to walk away from. I don't understand his need to be a woman while they have sex, unless as you say, he truly wants to BE a woman. Then that is a different issue then cross dressing.

I would strongly suggest that they find a kink aware mental health professional and see if that will help them. If not and sex means alot to her, she may have to take a lover. I wish them both the best.

~Lashra


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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 8:10:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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LS, your friend must be a wonderful person indeed, just to have stayed with him (I'll use him as its easier to refer that way!). That it meant an end to their sex life is understandable of course, as even in my position I just cant find much enthusiasm in a man appearing to be and behaving like, a woman.

I wont go into the differences between TV and TS (broad generalised terms, yes I know) again, as I have done this about three times on these boards so far anyway. Suffice to say its a whole different matter between occasional crossdressing and living 24/7 as female, when you were born male, regardless of surgery. Your friend's husband seems to fall between the cracks of a simplistic TV/TS division though as I understand it; he wants to live 24/7 as a female, but doesnt want HRT or surgery and in fact wants, or wanted, to continue normal heterosexual sex with his wife as a man?

The exact modern term for this tends to vary a lot depending on whom one asks, but to me this would indicate a TG (transgendered) person, who has no wish to lose his penis through HRT or surgery, but does want to live in the adopted gender as fully as possible up to those limits that do not mean changing sex. The sexuality part is interesting too going from what you said, in that he retains it seems, a male heterosexual sexuality, rather than opening up some hidden gay sexuality or indeed changing sexuality as TS women sometimes find happens to them as HRT and their other life changes take effect. He is not alone in this by any stretch; there are all manner of people in a similar position. Some of these take HRT to develop female features but then use viagra to retain their potency. Some dont take any HRT and are happy as they are. Some from both these groups are gay or bisexual, and some are heterosexual.

The problem for him though, is that heterosexual women in general (that means most, not all OK?) dont seem to find anything erotically or romantically inspiring about a man who appears like and/or behaves like a woman. Its only natural it seems. Meanwhile in my own experience, lesbian and bisexual women dont find anything inspiring there either, for similar reasons.

The problem for her, is that she has lost her husband, the man she loved, and yet he is still there. Its a very difficult situation indeed, there is mourning without end and a constant reminder of what was lost. She loves him still, but he is no more, replaced by another person almost. I can imagine that for the spouses left behind in a gender transition, its rather like living with someone with Alzheimers; the person you knew is there, but no longer the person you knew.

I was married, I had children and was into my 30s before I transitioned. It just reached a point where all that stuff could no longer be held back. I'd done well to suppress it for 20-odd years and thought I was doing well, but a few crises one after another broke open some lock and led me to where I should have been, like some irrestible force. I dont regret the marriage and especially not my children, although it did make me very aware that love is conditional, and though we're still friends I no longer believe what I thought I lost was all that good anyway. I do regret the hurt it caused her though - it was unfair to do that to anyone, though it had to happen sooner or later.

I also regret that the pressure put on me to conform when I was a teenager - by my dad mainly, is what caused me to suppress who I am for so long, and get into a marriage that resulted in hurting my best friend. If I had done transition when I was 19 or 20, then it would have been so much easier for me, and would have caused a lot less hurt than it eventually did.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 11/1/2006 8:55:42 AM >


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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 8:13:01 AM   
LadyOunce


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If everything else in their marriage is good, and man 30 years is not even close to something to sneeze at in this day and age, is their any way they can get around that? Not knowing what kind of sex life they shared before, or how frequent, I can't even begin to know how important it was to their daily life but if everything else is good and happy, can they work past this as one might with any other condition that hampers sexual actions for a couple?

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 9:41:26 AM   
crouchingtigress


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wow, that would have been a megga-bomb-drop if that was me, and i would need time to recover....she is awesome to be so accomodating....but "living as sisters," that seems like that only solves his problem, hers is eclipsed...hardly seems fair.
 
i would hope that they look as far and as wide as the imagination stretches to find something win - win for both people.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:01:42 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

We've addressed the stigma of cross-dressing often here- and it is a very real one.  While simply wearing women's clothes is enough to turn a lot of women off, this issue seems more about the person wanting to live and do daily activities AS a female.  Wearing traditional female clothing and living life as a female are very different things and I can see how that would create a big issue in a relationship.


I agree with L.A.
I think that this specialty is a whole other area of sexuality and really can't see why it would have anything to do with B&D.
The last thing I want to see is some linebacker in a dress.
I'm sure there must be plenty of sites dedicated to that activity just as there are for enema play, foot play, adult baby  and things like that.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:09:32 AM   
CrappyDom


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Popeye,

WIIWD isn't just about getting head and spanking cute girls.  It is about facing yourself truthfully and honestly and exploring yourself to seek those truths in an honest way.  THAT to me is what makes all this magical and special and is what has been the most rewarding to me.

Sometimes, like in this example, it involves some stark realities and some very hard choices, but facing those realities and making those hard choices is to me the core of WIIWD.

Without that, we are nothing.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:15:00 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Popeye,

WIIWD isn't just about getting head and spanking cute girls.  It is about facing yourself truthfully and honestly and exploring yourself to seek those truths in an honest way.  THAT to me is what makes all this magical and special and is what has been the most rewarding to me.

Sometimes, like in this example, it involves some stark realities and some very hard choices, but facing those realities and making those hard choices is to me the core of WIIWD.

Without that, we are nothing.


Crappy, I didn't say it was.
I just consider a man wearing woman's clothing a whole seperate activity than B&D. I.E. what does that activity have to do with B&D?
Some people might get off on driving a John Deer lawn tractor in the nude but it has nothing to do with B&D.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/1/2006 10:17:30 AM >

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:24:56 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

We've addressed the stigma of cross-dressing often here- and it is a very real one.  While simply wearing women's clothes is enough to turn a lot of women off, this issue seems more about the person wanting to live and do daily activities AS a female.  Wearing traditional female clothing and living life as a female are very different things and I can see how that would create a big issue in a relationship.


I agree with L.A.
I think that this specialty is a whole other area of sexuality and really can't see why it would have anything to do with B&D.
The last thing I want to see is some linebacker in a dress.
I'm sure there must be plenty of sites dedicated to that activity just as there are for enema play, foot play, adult baby  and things like that.



Popeye, I thought we'd been over this before?

Yes, this isnt a specifically trans site, and there are plenty of speciality sites out there if thats what you want. Maybe LS could have better posted it somewhere else on such a site, (maybe she has) or somewhere else on this site, but the point is that this is meant to be a community and LS is a valuable member here asking advice from the other members on something she is clearly concerned about 

But I cant help thinking you have the idea that someone who dresses up in female clothes to get "in role" is somehow different and lesser than someone who dresses up in leather gear or strips naked to get "in role"? Its really no different if you look at it as an outsider.

And I cant help but think that you believe someone like me should sit in their box and spend their entire day being TS, without any other activity or thought? Like I said last time (many months ago over the T girl rockband thread I think), why on earth would I suddenly lose any right to the rest of me, just because of a condition? In that case, then anyone who has a long term medical condition, anyone who is disabled and anyone who is for instance an amputee or was born with some birth defect, has no right to be here or to discuss their situation either?

I know youre not a bad and nasty man Popeye, from lots of other stuff you wrote that I've read. But I would ask you to think this over. No one says you have to like trans people, but its really just unfair and crazy to say who does and does not belong based on how they approach bdsm or from position they approach it. If we start down that line, then we could find a reason to keep just about anyone out.

Some things do not belong here I will agree with you, but crossdressing and transgender people do, if the likes of polyamourous relationships do - I mean, what has that got to do with bdsm if we are to take a single interpretation of it? The thing is there are people in polyamourous bdsm relationships, just as there are crossdressing people and transgendered people in bdsm relationships, so they belong too.

E

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:26:58 AM   
CrappyDom


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Popeye,

By your definition then you have excluded almost everything but sensory play which is a pretty shallow definition.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:46:59 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah



Does it pre-suppose, though, that he always had these desires or that he knew before they married, or anyway long ago, that he would one day have these desires? Maybe he came out on the very first day he felt clear enough to do so.


Yes, he told her he had aways been  inclined to cross dress.  But times being as they were way back, people just dind't bring things like that up.
quote:


Other's have posted about how their lives were enriched when a spouse discovered something new in him or herself well along in an established relationship.

  
Nope. Not in this case.  In the begining, she was acting as his Domme and he as her femsub.  It occured to him he really had no interest in BDSM.  
quote:


It sounds hard for all concerned but I credit him for the some backbone in coming out and if anything I credit her even more highly for keeping the faith.

Might he be persuaded to get in bed as a man "as a kink" occasionally for the sake of indulging this weird little proclivity of hers? If she has accepted living as sisters it wouldn't seem a disproportionate imposition on him to "role play" as a man for an hour now and then. Just wash off the mascara, grit his teeth and lie back and think of England, as it were. Maybe even toss in some burps and complants about mising the game on TV for verisimilitude?

So it turns out that a guy simply dropping his robe after a good shower and and climbing into the old familiar marriage bed with a partner of 30 years can under at least one circumstance actually be limit-pushing edge play. One more strand in life's rich tapestry, eh?


That's not a viable option at all for him. 




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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 10:59:52 AM   
LotusSong


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This is more of a relationship outcome of a fetish or proclivity this gentleman has.  I don't think he took into consideration the heterosexuality of his wife.
 
Strange as it may seem, not all ladies can adapt to bi-sexuality situations, nor should they have to.
 
I'm sure it's as dissapointing to him as it is to her.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 11:05:33 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

We've addressed the stigma of cross-dressing often here- and it is a very real one.  While simply wearing women's clothes is enough to turn a lot of women off, this issue seems more about the person wanting to live and do daily activities AS a female.  Wearing traditional female clothing and living life as a female are very different things and I can see how that would create a big issue in a relationship.


I agree with L.A.
I think that this specialty is a whole other area of sexuality and really can't see why it would have anything to do with B&D.
The last thing I want to see is some linebacker in a dress.
I'm sure there must be plenty of sites dedicated to that activity just as there are for enema play, foot play, adult baby  and things like that.



Popeye, I thought we'd been over this before?

Yes, this isnt a specifically trans site, and there are plenty of speciality sites out there if thats what you want. Maybe LS could have better posted it somewhere else on such a site, (maybe she has) or somewhere else on this site, but the point is that this is meant to be a community and LS is a valuable member here asking advice from the other members on something she is clearly concerned about 

But I cant help thinking you have the idea that someone who dresses up in female clothes to get "in role" is somehow different and lesser than someone who dresses up in leather gear or strips naked to get "in role"? Its really no different if you look at it as an outsider.

And I cant help but think that you believe someone like me should sit in their box and spend their entire day being TS, without any other activity or thought? Like I said last time (many months ago over the T girl rockband thread I think), why on earth would I suddenly lose any right to the rest of me, just because of a condition? In that case, then anyone who has a long term medical condition, anyone who is disabled and anyone who is for instance an amputee or was born with some birth defect, has no right to be here or to discuss their situation either?

I know youre not a bad and nasty man Popeye, from lots of other stuff you wrote that I've read. But I would ask you to think this over. No one says you have to like trans people, but its really just unfair and crazy to say who does and does not belong based on how they approach bdsm or from position they approach it. If we start down that line, then we could find a reason to keep just about anyone out.

Some things do not belong here I will agree with you, but crossdressing and transgender people do, if the likes of polyamourous relationships do - I mean, what has that got to do with bdsm if we are to take a single interpretation of it? The thing is there are people in polyamourous bdsm relationships, just as there are crossdressing people and transgendered people in bdsm relationships, so they belong too.

E


Lady Ellen, I never said that we should exclude anyone.
Even vanilla people who are curious about WIIWD are welcomed in here.
But there are certain activities that just aren't part of B&D.
What if someone came in here and wanted to talk about "scat" all the time and started numerous posts on it?
Wouldn't people in here politely direct them to sites for that?
I don't think "scat" has anything to do with B&D either but I'm sure there'll be some who disagree with that.
If they want to talk about B&D fine, but I REALLY don't want to hear all the things they do with "scat!" lol!
For all I know there are probably a lot of people out here who think picking their nose is a sexual act and maybe for them it is but does that activity have anything to do with B&D?
C.M. is a B&D oriented site after all.

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 11:26:35 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lady Ellen, I never said that we should exclude anyone.
Even vanilla people who are curious about WIIWD are welcomed in here.
But there are certain activities that just aren't part of B&D.
What if someone came in here and wanted to talk about "scat" all the time and started numerous posts on it?
Wouldn't people in here politely direct them to sites for that?
I don't think "scat" has anything to do with B&D either but I'm sure there'll be some who disagree with that.
If they want to talk about B&D fine, but I REALLY don't want to hear all the things they do with "scat!" lol!
For all I know there are probably a lot of people out here who think picking their nose is a sexual act and maybe for them it is but does that activity have anything to do with B&D?
C.M. is a B&D oriented site after all.

All of the political threads here have nothing to do with B&D either yet not only do you never complain about them, you frequently participate in them so your complaint about non-B&D things being discussed here is nothing but flaming hypocrisy.  You just don't want to read about things you don't like.

If you don't want to read about crossdressing (or scat, or whatever), perhaps you should consider avoiding threads that have that word in the subject, just like everyone else here seems to do without complaining.  How hard is that?

~stef

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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 11:40:48 AM   
SissySean


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Your friend has some tough decisions to make. Understanding she still loves her husband, but if she is not getting things out of the marrage she expects it's not fair, to her or him. There are many couples you divorce, although still in love, but one needs more or something different or as in this case, someone changes. Then, on the other hand, if she and he, can live with his choice, and they get "enough" out of the relationship, that may be enough.
I'm not expert, my name aside, I m not a crossdresser. I have tried it in certain situations and it added an air of "excitment" to the situation.  If a woman wants to see me that way, i will do it for her but for me it does just add something extra, different.
But since I don't 'dress-up" any other time, I really can't comment too much on their situation, just to consider all possibilities.
I think there was an HBO made movie about this a year or so ago. Anyone else see it?


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RE: Cross-dressing and Acceptance - 11/1/2006 11:43:12 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lady Ellen, I never said that we should exclude anyone.
Even vanilla people who are curious about WIIWD are welcomed in here.
But there are certain activities that just aren't part of B&D.
What if someone came in here and wanted to talk about "scat" all the time and started numerous posts on it?
Wouldn't people in here politely direct them to sites for that?
I don't think "scat" has anything to do with B&D either but I'm sure there'll be some who disagree with that.
If they want to talk about B&D fine, but I REALLY don't want to hear all the things they do with "scat!" lol!
For all I know there are probably a lot of people out here who think picking their nose is a sexual act and maybe for them it is but does that activity have anything to do with B&D?
C.M. is a B&D oriented site after all.


I would agree with you - I think the rule is, that if its going on the community boards, then it has to have something to do with community matters. So, if one wishes to discuss purely transgender matters, then it doesnt belong - but if its transgender + bdsm then it does. Its the same with who belongs IMO - if someone is a transgender person but has no interest in bdsm, then they really dont belong here (but are welcome to find out) - but if they have that interest then they do belong here. In fact, even a three-headed beastie from Mars belongs here, if they are interested in bdsm, and can start a thread on three-headed bdsm if they want.

I'd agree with you about scat and nosepicking too! But at the same time, if there is someone out there who does those things as part of a bdsm relationship, then its one of those things I dont want to hear about and would have nothing to say (except eeeuww!) about those things, but its not for me to say whether its right or wrong for them.

If someone wants to discuss something that isnt bdsm related, then we have the off topic section to do that in. I see this thread has been moved there, so presumably that solves the problem?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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