This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (Full Version)

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losttreasure -> This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 7:19:22 PM)

Not to take anything away from the Democrats who are now celebrating, but for those conservatives who might be feeling less than jubilant, consider these words:

quote:

...This election was not a rejection of conservative principles per se, but a rejection of corrupt, complacent and incompetent government.

...The Republican Party now has an opportunity to rediscover its identity as a party for limited government, free enterprise and individual responsibility. Most Americans still believe in these ideals, which reflect not merely the spirit of 1994 or the Reagan Revolution, but the vision of our founders. If Republicans present real ideas and solutions based on these principles we will do well in the future...


I invite you to read the statement in its entirety and know that we've some admirable leaders out there... and a bright future.

Felicitations,

LostTreasure







Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 7:53:16 PM)

EVERYONE believes in limited government, free enterprise, and individual responsibility.  If that's all the Republicans claim to stand for, they're going to lose next time, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

...The Republican Party now has an opportunity to rediscover its identity as a party for limited government, free enterprise and individual responsibility.



juliaoceania -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 8:11:53 PM)

I think that on the larger issues most Americans swing left of center. Most Americans are pro-choice, worried about global warming, are against unnecessary wars, and massive government spending that is being put on a charge card that will be billed to their children. Most Americans support stem cell research, alternatives to fossil fuels, care about emergency preparedness and want to build are infrastructure.


I do think that the republicans lost this race more than democrats won it because of all the mistakes they have made that have been exemplified in Iraq, corruption scandals, and lack of caring about the middle class. The republicans dug a huge hole that I do not know that the democrats can fill in to be honest with you. I believe that if the democrats run to the Right and do not fix these problems and then seek republican votes they will lose again.

The problem is that republicans run toward a religious right whackjob base that seeks to bring about the end of days so that their bibical prophecy will be played out. These people are the snake handlers of this country and they are the only people that vote republican that can be counted on.. they control the conservative agenda.. Americans are just learning about these people, and to be honest, if the republicans do not distance themselves from the Evangelicals they will lose more elections.

The democrats are right of me, I voted Green where ever I thought it was best on my ticket, which was more than half the races. If I thought voting for the Republican challenger to Diane Feinstien would have ousted her I would have.. since that was not the case I voted for the Green. I am not a democrat, but I have to say, getting rid of republicans was like giving America an enema and flushing the toilet... what a relief



KatyLied -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 8:20:05 PM)

I think many people were going to the polls, not necessarily to vote someone "in" but to vote the other person "out".  And with the way things have been going, that's not such a bad plan.  Change can be good, if it doesn't turn into gridlock.



losttreasure -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:13:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

EVERYONE believes in limited government, free enterprise, and individual responsibility.  If that's all the Republicans claim to stand for, they're going to lose next time, too.


I think the idea is to more than just "stand" for those things... but to work for and support them.



juliaoceania -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:18:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

EVERYONE believes in limited government, free enterprise, and individual responsibility.  If that's all the Republicans claim to stand for, they're going to lose next time, too.


I think the idea is to more than just "stand" for those things... but to work for and support them.



And I would be interested in how these soundbytes are more substantiated by republicans than by any other group of Americans... like that honor and integrity that Bush supposedly had that he doesn't, and being a uniter and not a divider

it galls me when people pretend some superiority to other people based upon ideological views, and that is what is going to win democrats more elections, at least they are not hypocrites



Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:22:36 PM)

The Republican Party has no more of a claim to working for and supporting those ideals than the Democrats, losttreasure.  Politicians on both sides of the aisle work for and support those ideals--that is, except for the ones who have sold their vote to the highest bidder.

The Republican Party lost this election because most voters think their policies have failed.  If Republicans take this as a signal that they should go back to their roots, then fair enough, that's reasonable; but it's really just an admission that the Republican Party has to change direction.  You didn't find too many Republicans admitting anything of the kind before yesterday.  There were some disgruntled palaeoconservatives, but mostly they were a laughingstock.  All we heard from Republicans in power was that we had to stay the course, be firm, all that bullshit...



Sinergy -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:26:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

EVERYONE believes in limited government, free enterprise, and individual responsibility.  If that's all the Republicans claim to stand for, they're going to lose next time, too.


I think the idea is to more than just "stand" for those things... but to work for and support them.



Back in the 1960s the Democratic party stood for things like clean food, clean water, the environment, affirmative action, equal rights, pro choice, an end to the war in Vietnam.

As the Republican party has drifted further and further from any objective reality over the years, from Watergate and Star Wars and Contract with America and fiscal idiocy, and the current fiasco in Iraq, the Democratic party has moved from a party with clarity of vision and actual goals in sight to one that has promoted itself as the alternative to the Republicans.

The results were predictable.  The Republican could attract people who feared the Communists, the Terrorists, the Democrats, the Kill Baby people, biological determinism based on chromosomes, Flag Burners, Euphoriphobics, etc., and the Democrats were never able to do much more than say "We are not them."  John Kerry was a perfect example of one of these.  Al Gore when he was running was also.  Too deathly afraid to stand up for a principle that could be counted on, I never liked either of them.  I voted for Kerry because the principles that Monkeyboy stood for frightened the living bejeezus out of me.

After Al Gore stopped running for president he stood up, said what he thought, was not afraid to have tomatoes thrown at him, and I found a whole new respect for his vision.  He runs again I may just vote for him.

Pentacostal millenialists trying to speed us to the end of days are probably here to stay.  They have an agenda.  They all march to the same drummer.  The are a strongly united voting public.  They are easily led by the nose by corrupt politicians like DeLay and Monkeyboy who play on their emotions to gain their votes.

I hope the Democratic party takes the last 6 years as a wake up call to find their own guiding principles, because playing the game of defense plays right in to the millenialist's game plan.

Regardless, I am probably going to stay Democrat so I can vote in the primaries, and then vote Green in the elections.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




justheather -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:33:27 PM)

My highly over-simplified take on it is this:
Many many Republican leaders lost their jobs last night, not because they are "complacent, corrupt or incompetent", but because of their affiliation and blind allegiance to one man.
Basically, Bush won the election in 2004 through a highly effective campaign of fear and the mobilization of single-issue voters (ie stem cell research, gay marriage). Enough people got fed up enough with him in the past two years to become mobilized tp vote away his control over Congress and the House based on a single issue: Being Fed Up With George Bush. Let there be no mistake that this election was a message for our President.
And Rick Santorum, who as we all know, is a total homophobic moronic d*ckhead.

Of course, let's not forget Julia, that the Democrats will have more than ample opportunity to show what hyporcrites they are capable of being over the next couple of years.



Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:35:19 PM)

I really believe that Santorum cost a few OTHER senators their jobs.  Rarely do you find people following senatorial races in other states, but Santorum/Casey was on just about every watch-list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

And Rick Santorum, who as we all know, is a total homophobic moronic d*ckhead.



juliaoceania -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 9:36:50 PM)

quote:

Of course, let's not forget Julia, that the Democrats will have more than ample opportunity to show what hyporcrites they are capable of being over the next couple of years.


 
And I fully expect to be revolted by them too[:D], but that is just me!

I have no fondness for either party... it just seems that the party that supposedly runs on "morals" should have some



FirmhandKY -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:00:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

EVERYONE believes in limited government, free enterprise, and individual responsibility.  If that's all the Republicans claim to stand for, they're going to lose next time, too.


I think the idea is to more than just "stand" for those things... but to work for and support them.



And I would be interested in how these soundbytes are more substantiated by republicans than by any other group of Americans... like that honor and integrity that Bush supposedly had that he doesn't, and being a uniter and not a divider

it galls me when people pretend some superiority to other people based upon ideological views, and that is what is going to win democrats more elections, at least they are not hypocrites


Republicans deserved to lose

Extracts:

They arrived a dozen years ago promising reform and smaller government. They did deliver a very successful welfare reform law--but that was over a decade ago. What legislative accomplishments they have delivered since have mostly consisted in approving President Bush's initiatives, which is something, but far from the "revolution" they promised in 1994.

...

Consider these results from a poll of voters in 12 swing GOP-held congressional districts. No, these results are not typographical errors:

  • When asked which Party they believe would cut taxes for the middle-class 42% said the Democrats while only 29% chose the Republicans.
  • When asked which Party will work toward reducing the deficit 47% chose the Democrats while only 22% chose the Republicans.
  • Again, when asked who will keep government spending under control the Democrats held a 17 point edge (38% Democrats, 21% Republicans).
Despite all this, voters in five of the districts elected or re-elected Republicans, vs. four districts for Democrats (three are still undecided as we write). While it's hard to conceive of Democrats as the party of frugality, Republicans have been spending like mad, while Democrats have lacked the power to do so, so there is a certain logic to preferring the Dems here.
...

It was not a referendum on Iraq. One of the most pro-Iraq lawmakers in Congress, Sen. Joe Lieberman, ran as an independent and trounced anti-Iraq Democratic nominee Ned Lamont. Meanwhile, of the five remaining Republican members of Congress who voted against Iraq's liberation, three lost: Sen. Lincoln Chafee (R.I.), Rep. John Hostettler (Ind.) and Rep. Jim Leach (Iowa). Only two anti-Iraq Republicans will return to the 110th Congress: Reps. Jimmy Duncan (Tenn.) and Ron Paul (Texas).




Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:10:46 PM)

I agree with all the excerpts you posted except this one.  No, the election was not SOLELY a referendum on Iraq, but Iraq had a lot to do with the outcome in many races.  In my congressional district, an absolute rookie politician named Patrick Murphy narrowly defeated a very popular Republican incumbent named Mike Fitzpatrick.  Fitzpatrick was one of only four or so Republicans to earn the Sierra Club's endorsement.  He's been a likable, moderate Republican in an extremely properous area.  Why did Murphy win?  He ran on ONE issue.  He is an Iraq veteran who opposes the war in Iraq.

Lieberman won in Connecticut (he didn't "trounce" Lamont) because he attracted almost the entire Republican vote.  The Republican in that race got something like 10% of the vote.  What's telling is not that Lieberman was re-elected, since that was considered a foregone conclusion just twelve months ago (he's accustomed to getting 70% of the vote), but that he had to run as an independent.

If Republicans somehow think the election results mean that Americans aren't fed up with the war in Iraq, they're going to be even sorrier in 2008.  But Rumsfeld's resignation shows that they know what's going on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

It was not a referendum on Iraq. One of the most pro-Iraq lawmakers in Congress, Sen. Joe Lieberman, ran as an independent and trounced anti-Iraq Democratic nominee Ned Lamont. Meanwhile, of the five remaining Republican members of Congress who voted against Iraq's liberation, three lost: Sen. Lincoln Chafee (R.I.), Rep. John Hostettler (Ind.) and Rep. Jim Leach (Iowa). Only two anti-Iraq Republicans will return to the 110th Congress: Reps. Jimmy Duncan (Tenn.) and Ron Paul (Texas).



Sinergy -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:20:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I agree with all the excerpts you posted except this one.  No, the election was not SOLELY a referendum on Iraq, but Iraq had a lot to do with the outcome in many races. 



I would have to say that anybody who thinks the outcome of this election was solely based on Iraq has not been paying attention.

Abramhoff.
Foley
DeLay
Iraq
More than doubling the national debt
Gas prices tripling
People out of work
etc.

This election was based on the fact that people consider their lives to have gotten worse with Monkeyboy in office, and the only response that Monkeyboy and his ilk can do is wave their arms and inarticulately blame the Terrorists.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



juliaoceania -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:22:28 PM)

fast reply,

Sinergy mentioned a statistic from a book he is reading about theocracy in America... 40% of republicans are of the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson type. They have been thrown bone after bone in the last decade while paleoconservatives were pushed from the party. Those who did not embrace this right wing theocratic movement are largely gone. The Republican party screwed themselves. If they cannot keep their religious right base they will lose elections, if they continue to pander to them they will lose elections.. lose lose situation



Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:28:51 PM)

Let's not get that rosy just yet.  The Vice President's first name is still Dick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The Republican party screwed themselves. If they cannot keep their religious right base they will lose elections, if they continue to pander to them they will lose elections.. lose lose situation



juliaoceania -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:30:15 PM)

Hey one can hope it is that rosy, the John Ashcroft crowd are a bunch of scary mo-fos



Sinergy -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply,

Sinergy mentioned a statistic from a book he is reading about theocracy in America... 40% of republicans are of the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson type. They have been thrown bone after bone in the last decade while paleoconservatives were pushed from the party. Those who did not embrace this right wing theocratic movement are largely gone. The Republican party screwed themselves. If they cannot keep their religious right base they will lose elections, if they continue to pander to them they will lose elections.. lose lose situation


The title of the book is American Theocracy.  I believe the author is Kevin Phillips.

The 40% statistic is amusing, but the book is scaring the hell out of me the more I read it.  This is largely because the author makes the point that civilizations in decline tend to become increasingly maniacally religious in nature.

The joy of studying history is I have studied the examples he gives and his analysis of them is spot on.

So when he ties that concept to the ideas that civilizations decline when they lose control over their primary energy source, it makes me want to do the Euell Gibbons / Davy Crocket thing and go buy a lot of guns and live off the land in Montana.

The United States is losing control of the energy source they rely on for global supremacy.  I would suggest we find a new one or we will be the Haiti of tomorrow.

Sinergy



Lordandmaster -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:32:14 PM)

This is a pretty good article about the things you're talking about:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19590



losttreasure -> RE: This Was a Great Election for Conservatives... (11/8/2006 10:41:04 PM)

My goodness, Julia... such a vehement post filled with invidiousness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that on the larger issues most Americans swing left of center. Most Americans are pro-choice, worried about global warming, are against unnecessary wars, and massive government spending that is being put on a charge card that will be billed to their children. Most Americans support stem cell research, alternatives to fossil fuels, care about emergency preparedness and want to build are infrastructure.


*sighs*  I don't know where to even begin to address these comments.  If presented with some statistical facts or documented evidence that these are the viewpoints of all but a small minority of Americans, I might be able to accept your assertions.  As it is, I don't claim to know what "most" of any people think, feel or believe.  I can only tell you what my feelings are, and why... I don't try to speak for everyone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do think that the republicans lost this race more than democrats won it because of all the mistakes they have made that have been exemplified in Iraq, corruption scandals, and lack of caring about the middle class. The republicans dug a huge hole that I do not know that the democrats can fill in to be honest with you. I believe that if the democrats run to the Right and do not fix these problems and then seek republican votes they will lose again.


If it makes you feel better to interpret the results this way, by all means... go right ahead.  What matters is that the current majority of American people in certain areas felt that a change was needed.  Included in that majority are people who previously helped install those who were unseated and felt that they weren't being adequately represented, and those who did not go to the trouble to make their voices heard in the first place.  What we can hope for is that those now charged with looking after the interest of their constituents, listen.

In any case I can assure you that, in spite any partisan rhetoric, there will continue to be changes made if the voters are not represented to their satisfaction.  That's the beauty of our system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The problem is that republicans run toward a religious right whackjob base that seeks to bring about the end of days so that their bibical prophecy will be played out. These people are the snake handlers of this country and they are the only people that vote republican that can be counted on.. they control the conservative agenda.. Americans are just learning about these people, and to be honest, if the republicans do not distance themselves from the Evangelicals they will lose more elections.


I certainly won't stoop to ascribing malevolent motivations to a portion of the this country's citizens... I'm not privy to their thoughts and desires.  I also somehow doubt that their chosen representatives completely ignore a good measure of their electorate in order to cater to the whims of only one group.  If indeed they do, then perhaps the "religious right whackjob base" that you so graciously labeled is a justifiable majority.  After all, in a representative republic such as ours, there is power in numbers.

At any rate, it is not my place to judge other people.  It is my responsibility to vote for and support those representatives who I feel will best serve my country as I see it.  I don't see the point in hatemongering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The democrats are right of me, I voted Green where ever I thought it was best on my ticket, which was more than half the races. If I thought voting for the Republican challenger to Diane Feinstien would have ousted her I would have.. since that was not the case I voted for the Green.


Congratulations.  Each person should vote his or her own conscience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am not a democrat, but I have to say, getting rid of republicans was like giving America an enema and flushing the toilet... what a relief


I am a conservative and will say that I wholly support voting out of office anyone who is not satisfactorily discharging their duties, regardless of their affiliation.  I am also a mature adult who can express myself without having to resort to name-calling and vilifying those who I do not agree with.



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