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RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 5:42:35 AM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Groans at this topic- just seems like a passive aggressive flame to me...including a lovely suck-up to get support for your flame.

If another thread inspires you to write about a subject, why make it a personal attack against someone? No one here is perfect.

It seems to me as well that this topic could have easily been brought up without making it "about" another poster.

Yet another disconcerting trend...the "Im not making fun of you because we had a disagreement on another thread, Im just curious about the subject" thread. Yet the OP is more about the other poster than it is about the subject.

This subject was raised in a thread about definitions. There appeared to be a group of posters who believe that in an M/s relationship, the slave does not hold any personal accountability when following an order. The example given was more one of inconvenience and counter-productivity than a "right" vs "wrong" situation. I think that most people would understand, even if they disagree that it should be that way, that if a slave blindly follows an order that results in her performing an illegal act, in our society she would bear the legal consequences of said act.

The act referred to in the OP, in my opinion, was just a matter of petty annoyance.
No real ramifications, other than people getting their feathers ruffled, were felt as a result.

I wonder, however, how many slaves would assert that because master owns the whole of the body, mind and spirit, if she were still morally accountable for acts that might be considered immoral according to the belief system she held before becoming a slave (I assume she gives up her morality with the package? Not be facetious here).

Interesting idea, to me at least. Id like to see it discussed among those who consider themselves slaves.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 21

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 5:53:34 AM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

I wonder, however, how many slaves would assert that because master owns the whole of the body, mind and spirit, if she were still morally accountable for acts that might be considered immoral according to the belief system she held before becoming a slave (I assume she gives up her morality with the package? Not be facetious here).

Master owns my body, my mind, and my spirit; yet, IF he were ever to request something of me that was morally inethical, and I followed it, then yes, I and I alone are accountable.

The one thing that Master does not try to own, is my ability to rationalize and question some things that may be asked of me. It is something that he encourages within our relationship.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 22

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 6:01:01 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

There is a small piece missing - and, it seems to be whenever I see this discussed (Yes, it is a cyclic discussion here and everywhere elsewhere - ask LA)...

That is:

We (people in general) are always responsible morally and ethically for all of the things we do.

We are responssible whether someone tells us to do it or not, whether or not it is something abhorrent or morally repugnant.

The good as well as the bad - and, although it is minor to the discussion - it always seems to be stated as "when master tells me to do something {insert bad thing here}"

~J
Who believes that IF someone is going to slam someone through a posting, they ought to be honest enough to state it right out without beating around the bush - "passive aggressive" behavior is so 'passe' this season!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

I wonder, however, how many slaves would assert that because master owns the whole of the body, mind and spirit, if she were still morally accountable for acts that might be considered immoral according to the belief system she held before becoming a slave (I assume she gives up her morality with the package? Not be facetious here).

Master owns my body, my mind, and my spirit; yet, IF he were ever to request something of me that was morally inethical, and I followed it, then yes, I and I alone are accountable.

The one thing that Master does not try to own, is my ability to rationalize and question some things that may be asked of me. It is something that he encourages within our relationship.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to Kalira)

Post #: 23

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 7:13:42 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

I think there is a small population who enters the world of slavery simply so that they don't HAVE to feel responsible for their actions.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 24

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 7:17:28 AM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

The good as well as the bad - and, although it is minor to the discussion - it always seems to be stated as "when master tells me to do something {insert bad thing here}"

Reminds me of that ole saying "the devil made me do it" Can one insert "master" here?

This is really more about common sense, if it feels right, great. If it feels wrong, and ya don't listen to your gut, then shame on you.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 25

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 7:49:46 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

It depends. Now if he tells her to rob a bank, she's responsible for doing so.

If he tells her to break off conversation with someone without sending an email informing this person of the new policy she's between a rock and a hard place. Either she's rude for not telling them she can't talk anymore or she's deliberately disobedient. In that case the ultimate responsibility is the dom's because he should not force her to break her own code of morality and he should have sent an email telling the third party not to contact her anymore. But she is responsible for picking someone who doesn't have matching values.

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 26

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:07:11 AM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

I think if you are unable to think about something - be it order, directive, choice, decision, want, need

then you shouldnt be doing it in the first place. This looks like what i've heard called "mindless obediance"

I think it really comes down to thinking capacity.

and yes yes yes yes LA

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 27

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:08:19 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

There are people in every walk of life - from the Walmart stock boy under the supervisor to the Army Colonel under the General - who seek nullification of responsibility and culpability of action through orders and directives.

This is definitively not an issue of leather -so much as an issue of life.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I think there is a small population who enters the world of slavery simply so that they don't HAVE to feel responsible for their actions.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 28

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:13:44 AM

Lillithsdream

Posts: 20
Joined: 9/15/2006
Status: offline

As it was said to me.......there are alot of indians, but very few chiefs~! I am more then happy to be an indian:)

Lil

chief the head of a body of persons or an organization : LEADER <chief of police>
the principal or most valuable part

_____________________________

“The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make all the same mistakes - only sooner.”
santiz Tallulah Bankhead quotes , 1903-1968)

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 29

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:24:50 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear LordODiscipline, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I do agree, that Magikslave may be responsible for the original thread and the lead post, as to set the tone. However, those who post thereafter, the lass has no control over and or ability to control over, so the responsibility ends. The only responsibility the lass holds after the first original post, is for her follow up responses--In my mind's eye.

If the lass was able to edit other's --then I can see that the lass would be responsible for the content; no different than an editor.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 30

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:31:15 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear windchymes, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I have to agree with you dear lady. I have had gentlemen say that they don't want responsibility, to be accountable and have someone else be so--namely, the Dominant.

Again, it really boils down to individual's personal intentions when they enter the scene, experience the scene and be seasoned by the scene. Intentions will change, as their journey progresses--however, some maintain their intent, good and or bad.

In my mind's eye, I would have to inquire as to why that individual does not want responsibility and or accountability for their actions.
Is it just making someone else responsible for hauling their ashes and or is it just a temporary rest due to a very responsible position in the public/job sector that it is a decompression and anti-stress movement; and or everything in between.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 31

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:37:34 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

There are people in every walk of life - from the Walmart stock boy under the supervisor to the Army Colonel under the General - who seek nullification of responsibility and culpability of action through orders and directives.

This is definitively not an issue of leather -so much as an issue of life.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I think there is a small population who enters the world of slavery simply so that they don't HAVE to feel responsible for their actions.

Touche' and very true! Maybe we could call it "Vanilla Slavery"

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 32

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 8:45:27 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

There are people in every walk of life - from the Walmart stock boy under the supervisor to the Army Colonel under the General - who seek nullification of responsibility and culpability of action through orders and directives.

This is definitively not an issue of leather -so much as an issue of life.

~J

That's true but consider the Walmart stock clerk. He's told by his manager who writes up year end reports on him to put breakable things on an end cap where they get broken. Then the assistant store manager chews him out for putting them there where they were broken. If he wants to keep his job he has to do what his manager tells him. So he's stuck unless he doesn't mind getting fired and sleeping in his car. The responsibility here lies with his manager.

The same for the army colonel who has a choice between disobeying a direct order and being court martialled or doing what he's told. The person who has the rights also has the responsibility.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 33

RE: Responsibility in slavery - 11/15/2006 9:08:30 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
So what I want to know is what you all think.. I personaly think its a copout and a testament [of] immaturity to think being a slave means you dont have to be responsable for your actions... but maybe thats just me.

A slave's life is all about responsibility, in fact. The burden a slave shoulders is unconditional; perform a task and do it to perfection. There are few examples in our "land of the free" where interpersonal relations carry such dire consequences for shortfall. The cost of failure can be grim, depending upon the preference and disposition a Master or Mistress contains.

Regarding unquestioning obedience, I believe that is the only way of a slave. Any significant concession, amendment or deviation from this calls to mind a different creature, which should thus be differently named. While a slave is to take his or her keeper's word as the greater law, it is crucial to reflect deeply upon entering this form of bondage, for as a slave, one is still subject to the law of the land, and in its eyes one is not removed from answering to it.

Considering this, the importance of personal accountability in the choices one makes cannot be stressed enough. This is entirely different, however, than prostituting the idea of responsibility to legitimize a slave's disobedience.

< Message edited by amayos -- 11/15/2006 9:25:20 AM >

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 34

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:10:42 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

deleted because this opinion was already expressed...smiles

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/15/2006 9:12:26 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 35

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:13:27 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

You are not fully understanding the allegations alluded to in those postings through nuance... so, are making an inaccurate assumption based on them.
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear LordODiscipline, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I do agree, that Magikslave may be responsible for the original thread and the lead post, as to set the tone. However, those who post thereafter, the lass has no control over and or ability to control over, so the responsibility ends. The only responsibility the lass holds after the first original post, is for her follow up responses--In my mind's eye.

If the lass was able to edit other's --then I can see that the lass would be responsible for the content; no different than an editor.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 36

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:20:59 AM

slavemaia

Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Ok this stems from another thread...

Ok a rather green sub used the defence "I just did what Master told me"
and then got upset when one of our beloved posters (well I think she is pretty great) told her that excuse didnt fly!!

So i came in and explained that just because you are a slave doesnt mean you arent responsable for your actions

this sub then said "a good slave does as her Master says"

My reply was "this is true but that doesnt make you any less responsable for your actions"

She didnt seem to like that!!

So what I want to know is what you all think.. I personaly think its a copout and a testament to immeturity to think beeing a slave means you dont have to be responsable for your actions... but maybe thats just me.

Magik's slave

Thank you for this great post. In my humble opinion, i do as Master says ----- BUT ---- lol. If i have concerns, fears etc. about His commands i discuss it with Him. This is a complex situation because on the one hand Master accepts responsibility for me, on the other, only i am ultimately responsible for what i do and what is done to me. i think it depends on one's motives. If "i do what Master tells me to do" is used as an excuse not to be an adult and a reason to blame another for the results, then it's just that - an excuse. If that statement applies to a sincere desire to surrender to another and in doing so, making an honest mistake, then that's a whole different story.

Trust is the issue here for me. Sometimes i am required to obey what i don't understand because i am learning trust. So it's a tricky situation. But, as has been said repeatedly - communication - communication - communication.

slave maia

_____________________________

She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 37

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:22:08 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

You are missing the point -

What many of us are saying is that when instructed to do something, the individual must consider the ramifications and the ultimate morality/legalness of the actions.

If the manager of that Walmart told the stockclerk to secret things out the side door and place them in his (the manager's car) then the stockclerk is guilty of theft just as assuredly as the manager - and, he does have a choice of disobeying or doing as instructed.

In the same light, the stockclerk can tell the manager that he cannot place the breakable items on an endcap, as that is something which will cost the company money eventually should they be that assured to get broken...

If the manager insists on doing it, then the stockclerk can follow though knowing he did the right thing by issuing a cautionary...
...and, if and when the ass. manager calls him short for this action, he is in no way obligated from not telling the ass. manager of the order to do as instructed, the cautionary issued and the final say by the manager to do as instructed.

A stockclerk is not likely to be fired by reasonable people - and, if they are unreasonable - then it is probably for the best (Hell - go work for BestBuy or the local grocer!)

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

There are people in every walk of life - from the Walmart stock boy under the supervisor to the Army Colonel under the General - who seek nullification of responsibility and culpability of action through orders and directives.

This is definitively not an issue of leather -so much as an issue of life.

~J

That's true but consider the Walmart stock clerk. He's told by his manager who writes up year end reports on him to put breakable things on an end cap where they get broken. Then the assistant store manager chews him out for putting them there where they were broken. If he wants to keep his job he has to do what his manager tells him. So he's stuck unless he doesn't mind getting fired and sleeping in his car. The responsibility here lies with his manager.

The same for the army colonel who has a choice between disobeying a direct order and being court martialled or doing what he's told. The person who has the rights also has the responsibility.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 38

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:31:00 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Groans at this topic- just seems like a passive aggressive flame to me...including a lovely suck-up to get support for your flame.

If another thread inspires you to write about a subject, why make it a personal attack against someone? No one here is perfect.

I mentioned no names for a reason.. I wasnt faliming anyone enough flaiming went on in the other thread. I wrote this because I was really interested in what others thought... But I bet you feel better because you got to flaim someone now!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 39

RE: Responsability - 11/15/2006 9:31:35 AM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

I think submissives.slaves have the responsibility to choose the right partner in the first place - after that, they submit.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 40

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