quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

anything that bring another into a situation that hasnt consented is causeing harm anything that wasnt consented to by the slave when the relationship began and is done is harm... so on

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

anything that bring another into a situation that hasnt consented is causeing harm anything that wasnt consented to by the slave when the relationship began and is done is harm... so on

Post trimmed because I am not questioning whether your sister in law was harmed or not.

If I understand you correctly, any situation that a person does not consent to is causing them harm.  This means that if I throw a surprise party for someone then I am harming them because they did not consent to it.

The reason I keep questioning your statements is because they are over generalized absolutes that do not appear to hold up under critical thinking.  Your statements are made as if they apply to everyone but they do not.  If what you intend is that these statements apply to you only then state it that way.  If what you actually mean is that "I think I have been harmed when anything is done to me that I do not consent to" then actually say it that way. 

For myself, harm is when I have been permanently damaged and I am less as a person than before the incident.  This includes, physical, mental and emotional.  Consent to me is irrelevant to harm and what matters is the consequences of the action.  This is how I evaluate harm in my life, but others may evaluate it differently.

Knight's kyra

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
OK I wasnt as clear as I needed to be then!!! I was makeing general statements because I wasnt thinking totaly about deeper meanings and such without analizeing.. Im not trying to say this is how it is in EVERY situation. I mean and I know I dont always workd things well but I ment if you are hurt or upset bu an event you didnt consent too something negative is a harm.. a suprise party is not a negative at least not in any way I can see it at the moment...

Magik's slave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

I love daddysprop's answer to this. She recognizes that she is legally responsible for her actions. She knows(I think) that in many cases she will be held socially accountable. But she feels no moral responsibility for an action that was in response to her daddy's commands. Because, _in her morality_ she is only responsible for one thing. And that is obeying her daddy. And that is _her_ morality. And it may offend some, but most of wiitwd is going to offend someone.
.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I Just have to bring into question why a sub would chose to be with a Master who blatently disregards the effect his orders will have on his slaves life (Im not saying yours does your post just braught the thought to my head so dont think Im flameing your Master Im not) To me that type of person does not belong beeing a Master also I question the sanity of said slave for not looking after herself.. because she choses to submit to a Master that would ask such things of her she is then responsable for the things he asks her to do because she willingly suibmitted to him.. ok Iv stoped makeing sence now...

Please ownedgirlie dont think I was saying thigns about your Master what I said wasnt about him I simply quoted you because what you wrote sparked these thoughts in. I am not speaking ill of anyone here this is all hypothetical..

OK disclamer over LOL

Magik's slave

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
OK I wasnt as clear as I needed to be then!!! I was makeing general statements because I wasnt thinking totaly about deeper meanings and such without analizeing.. Im not trying to say this is how it is in EVERY situation. I mean and I know I dont always workd things well but I ment if you are hurt or upset bu an event you didnt consent too something negative is a harm.. a suprise party is not a negative at least not in any way I can see it at the moment...

Magik's slave

Magiks, you can't play the game if you aren't willing to put forth the effort.  You should know by now who you're dealing with.

Surprise parties certainly CAN be negative depending on the person and circumstance.  The fact that you can't even see the possibilities there show you aren't at all really open to the nuances of this discussion and just want to drive your point home.

Are we to put NO responsibility on the intention of the other party?  Are we placing the sole judgement in the hands of the recipient, that, no matter WHAT or HOW the other person intended things to go, if they DO go badly (according to the recipient) then it's a harmful and wrong act?

Maybe a person can be hurt and upset by a non consensual event because they are just freakin weird, or they are on drugs, or it's a personal quirk that NO ONE knew beforehand, or she just had a really bad day and had an unusual reaction....there's lots of variations here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

The majority of adults would say that they *accept responsibility* for their actions, regardless of who directed them, MajiksSlave. There are very few people that would abdicate that reponsibility on most levels.

What you're discovering is that it can be a little tricky to express a point of view  ....only to have it *picked apart*.........and not to have a great deal to *come back* with.

The good part is that you can hone your debating skills, the *not so good part* is that it might take longer than you'd like and it can be as irritating as hell.


agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Hey daddys girl

WOW that was really a great post and really got to the core of the issue. its hard beeing new and beeing new you dont always know when you are beeing fed horse poop eather or if what you are beeing told is right a lot of people take advantage of newness and such...

Thank you MS.  i think it can be very confusing....particularly because so many have their own take on how they live the lifestyle.  Add to it that a lot of the newbies are young and really haven't had much experience with long term relationships to begin with...and now they are asking what a slave is....what does a collar mean to people....how do i submit to a Master....etc.
 
Most people get to know a partner very well before they decide to marry them and call themselves a 'wife' but for some reason, many in the lifestyle jump into taking a collar and becoming a 'slave' and think nothing of what that really means.  It's like 'jump now and ask questions later.'  Then all of a sudden, they're in this power exchange and have no idea how to handle it.
 
And because of the internet, there is a lot of exposure to a lot of different 'ways'. 
What if the sub happened across Gor and thought that sounded good?
Or across poly, and that sounded good?
Or heard others advocating getting involved in the public scene.....going to munches and play parties?  She might think that sounds good too. 
Is she a bottom, a sub, a slave, a switch?  Is she a masochist? 
There is just so much out there to explore.  We can only hope that people make the best decisions possible and if it's the wrong decision, they come out of the experience as unscathed as possible...and learn something from it.

I guess this situation isnt really as clear cut as i would have liked it to be.. I talked with Master a lot about this last night and i was ever more becomeing confused and the more confused i got the more defensive I got of my original opinion!!!

Dale carnagie says a lot in his book "How to make friand and influance people" about the more you try and forse your opinion on someone the more they will hold onto their original opinion even if they have been shown that what they thought was wrong if it is forsed on them they will be even more clingy to their original opinion and you will have done more harm then good. He says something along the lines of 
     "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
 
i agree.  The more you try to force your opinion on another, the tighter the other will hold on to that opinion.....regardless of what valid points you have to offer.
 
Reminds me of my mother....an old Italian Catholic.  Obviously, there is no convincing her that there is anything but 'God' in this entire universe....and i can respect that.  But i asked her if she could just open her mind to accept that others have 'their gods' too, even though they are not the same as hers.  Oh, hell no!  And she was not budging on it either.  And then the debate goes on and on and on.  So my preference is not to bother talking about it with her anymore.  Again, i don't have time for such futile conversation. 
 
All i can say is....i'm glad i know who/what i am now.   i still like to ask questions but mostly just to hear how others do it....and not as a means to define myself.  (Been there, done that....finally figured it out   )  So i certainly can sympathize with those just coming into all of this.  i wouldn't want to have to be there again 

DG 

   

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK I wasnt as clear as I needed to be then!!! I was makeing general statements because I wasnt thinking totaly about deeper meanings and such without analizeing.. Im not trying to say this is how it is in EVERY situation. I mean and I know I dont always workd things well but I ment if you are hurt or upset bu an event you didnt consent too something negative is a harm.. a suprise party is not a negative at least not in any way I can see it at the moment...

Magik's slave

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK I wasnt as clear as I needed to be then!!! I was makeing general statements because I wasnt thinking totaly about deeper meanings and such without analizeing.. Im not trying to say this is how it is in EVERY situation. I mean and I know I dont always workd things well but I ment if you are hurt or upset bu an event you didnt consent too something negative is a harm.. a suprise party is not a negative at least not in any way I can see it at the moment...

Magik's slave

As Lucky pointed out a surprise party can be a negative experience for some people; depending on my state of mind it could be for me.

Judging from your other posts in this thread, I get the impresion that you think I am picking on you.  The thing is, I see something there in your posts.  You appear to be on the right track with your posts to come to some genuine understanding of the M/s dynamic as it pertains to you.  Yet you mask your ideas and thoughts with overgeneralized and absolute thoughts.  Absolutes and overgeneralizations only muddy up the waters. 

It could be that you have already reached that understanding but the way you communicate your thoughts does not reflect that you grasp the nuances of the interactions.  It takes some mental effort to get past that type of thinking and get to the heart of what you really want to say.  In my opinion, it is well worth the effort to learn this critical thinking skill.

There is no maliciousness or bashing in any of my posts in this thread, just a genuine desire to help you get out of the muck of absolutes and overgeneralizations.

Kyra