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RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 2:14:05 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		I disagree violently with my father's assessment of race problem. Dad said that the only good white person isn't born yet and his mother is dead." You must admit that our language carries withit the baggage that white is good, angelic, pure, noble, and black is evil, ugly, mean, sinful etc...
When you look at the language from that point of view. Mr. Kramer was just expressing in blunter terms what every kindergardener knows/

The structure of English and all the other western languages that I know agree that Black is definitely declasse and white is uber human. Portuguese has more opprobrious epithets for pigmented people than all the others and we think of the Portuguese as being enlightened.
SPanish runs it a close second. The French say that one becomes French no matter his complexion that is if he be Leopold Senghor, President of French Senate, and later President of Senegal.
"Noir dans le noir,
Plus noir que le noir,
Plus noir que le combat des Negres
a minuit dans une cave. (Blacker than Negroes fighting in a cave at midnigt.
None the less the French Ur anti-semites that they be have plenty of negative words for those of the darker hue. I know of no western nation that is not burdened with baggage of negative language.

One day I was walking in the park in Germany, formerly in the Judengasse, name changed after the war but everybody in the town called the section the Judengasse. A group of lilly white aryan children were singing when they got closer, I heard "Neger, Neger, Schonsteinfegger." Black Black chimney sweeper. I took their little hands and sang the rest of the song with the and then sang loudly and clearly
Schwartzbraun ist die haselnuss. This was a folk song banned by the Nazi because it implied that mixing colors was good.

What to my surprise, the little darlings knew the song. They probably knew the Horst Wessel lied too.

When racisn is such visceral part of the language nobody escapes the taint.

I am the only non racist person I know really well.

Vernon4

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 3:03:19 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		There are things that are black that are considered good. Being in the Black, means a company is profitable. That's just off the top of my head.

Anyway, I think the reason the color black is often associated with bad, and white to good has more to do with night and day. I never figured the connotations were based on skin color. That is a stretch in my opinion.

(in reply to Vernon4)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 3:46:42 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		I'm beyond caring what color someone is. I'm more concrned with the color of our souls.

We all would be well advised to take heed to the warning:

"Choose your enemies carefully for you will become like them".

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 4:00:27 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The use of black in European languages to denote the negative pre-dates any contact with Africans, though much was introduced from the Latin and the Romans did have had contact with Africans but that is not the source of the connotations of black. The idea of the negative connotations of black having associations with black people, was introduced into Europe through political correct language from America. Personally I've always seen this vision of the language as both ridiculous and dangerous (in the 1984 sense).

Yes, there are racist saying and terms but that does not mean racism is inherent in the languages but that people are racist. You can give a language a politically correct spring clean but you won't get rid of racism that way. Racism is the spirit behind the use of the language.

In the Falklands war the British soldiers called the locals Bennies after an idiot character in a soap opera. They were banned by their seniors from using the term because of it was deemed insulting so they called the locals 'Stills' as in 'still' Bennies.

There are tribes in west Africa that see the devil as being white and that pre-dates any contact with white people. Apt you might think but anti-white? I think not.

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RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 4:09:31 AM   
LotusSong


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From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		I'm thinking that our prejudices stem not so much from race these days.. but more from the introduction of different "cultures".  Any thoughts on this?

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 4:19:16 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		Quite frankly, it isnot the Kramers of the world who worry me. itis the local police and Nazi, and vigilantes and all the other species of Caucasians How the europeans laugh at that racial appellation. You have no idea of the level of penis envy in this benighted land. I was not even blessed with a penis that would exite the envy of those with smaller appendages. How horrible to be lynched for having a miniature penis.

Vernon4

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 4:22:46 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		We Kultur Kamp Germans always have a slight preference for Kramer/ after all it is Remark backwards. So let us give Kramer a pass for his typically racist behavior because he may be consangueneous with Erick Maria Remark.

Veernon4

(in reply to Vernon4)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 4:36:40 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		White made their disastrous forays into Africa thousands of years ago and believe me the impression they left has been lasting. I must say that I have found White opinion evenly divided on me. Most give me a by when they decide that I am cultured and educated etc... Then there is that other group who want to lynch the uppity Nigger. As long as there is an automatic boost that whites receive because of their lack of pigmentation, we will have the same racist inequality \. Has anybody every compared the number of legacy admits to Harvard to the number of affirmative admits.
Please don't downplay the vile twist of language as a factor in racism. Just hark back to Kenneth Clark's study.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 5:43:32 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vernon4

Quite frankly, it isnot the Kramers of the world who worry me. itis the local police and Nazi, and vigilantes and all the other species of Caucasians How the europeans laugh at that racial appellation. You have no idea of the level of penis envy in this benighted land. I was not even blessed with a penis that would exite the envy of those with smaller appendages. How horrible to be lynched for having a miniature penis.

Vernon4


I'm not sure if you are joking now or being for real.

Penis Envy? You can't be serious, or are you?


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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 5:47:45 AM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vernon4

We Kultur Kamp Germans always have a slight preference for Kramer/ after all it is Remark backwards. So let us give Kramer a pass for his typically racist behavior because he may be consangueneous with Erick Maria Remark.

Veernon4


Hello A/all,

I agree with what you have posted so succinctly, Vernon4, but I wanted to offer up one correction on this.

The author of All Quiet On The Western Front was named Erich Marie Remarque.  He wrote one of the most poignant anti-war novels ever written by simply describing his thoughts and experiences.  I made the comment after read Jarhead by Anthony Swofford that I had not been as affected by an anti war novel (Jarhead) since I read All Quiet On The Western Front in the 7th grade.

Regards,

Sinergy

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(in reply to Vernon4)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 5:50:04 AM   
NakisisaX


Posts: 57
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline 		What a surprise. I'm glad he said it because it was from the heart. I'd rather see the hate then to have it sneak up on me.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 5:59:58 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		While I don't blame you for your feelings about white people, it was Africans that sold their bretheren into slavery. White people were guilty of buying and keeping slaves and all the crimes associated with that part of the devil's pact but they didn't initially capture the slaves, the Africans did that themselves. While Britain outlawed slavery at the beginning of the 19th century, Africans were still selling their bretheren as late as 1916 to the Arabs when the last official slave market was closed.

As for language and its application in America, the meaning is more important than sound but I know nothing but what I see on TV and read in books about race and America. All I know that when I am there, America appears to be more segregated than Europe.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 6:19:48 AM   
NakisisaX


Posts: 57
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline 		They were sold in the beginning until europeans started to find their own routes to catch Africans themselves because those that did the selling ended up in chains as well. Like I said, I can respect someone who shows it to me and even acts on it rather than someone who can  disguise it. I have family and friends asking me about it out of the blue and they are shocked. Now either they are just blind or kramer had a really good disguise.  I don't even know why it made this much press. It's not like he was in Compton saying it and got his az whupped. He was in his own environment. What did surprise me was the 2 brothers he was talking to. Just looking at them and listening to them, they had no grounds to heckle anyone. They still had the look of shock on their faces.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 6:34:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've got no illusions about the slave trade but the Europeans just had to wait at the slave ports for their cargo. The Ashanti kings wouldn't allow Europeans to venture into the interior nor did were whites enthusiastic to go. The west coast of Africa wasn't called the 'dead man's coast' for nothing. It wasn't until 1817 that the British controled land in west Africa and by that time the British slave trade was over and colonisation begun. Nor do I believe the slave trade was stopped by philantropists but by the fact the plantations became unprofitable with the onset of the industrial revolution rendered slavery uncommercial.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 7:07:19 AM   
NakisisaX


Posts: 57
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline 		I know that, but please remember, europeans didn't have to be there in the first place. We're on kramer's comments now. I'm not surprised at it just like I'm not surprised at what happened in New York with the groom killed on his wedding day. To me, people are upset because they think there's been "progress" in this country, but where is the progress when the title for us went from "slave" to "minority"? That's like a lateral move, so again, I'm not surprised and when it confronts me, I can deal with it as I see fit.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 8:29:42 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		It is time for me to insist that we organize a committee to defend Jesse Jackson. His reputation on this site is somewhere between Bilbo and Foley. I remember Jesse for having done many a good deed in his time and I know that the good that he has done far outweighs the bad. There is something about the way that calumny is like a snowball rolling down the slopes at Mt. Snow. Jesse was there praying and sitting in, marching in, and getting his head whipped in when the rest of you were possibly lamenting the terrible things that happen in those bad places. Well children the bad places are here next door, across the street, and in your office. Jesse could long ago have retired to siring more children with all the women who admire his style, achievement and panache.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 11:01:16 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		My dear kittensmallbox, four hundred years of slavery, genicide, exploitation, racism and a host of other crimes against humanity make his tirade lamentable. He is not Black and I can assure you that he would not be Black even if he could have Chris Rock's money. All oppressed groups tend to accept the stereitypes which they cannot in any case escape and run with those stereotypes/ We tend to use the same vile terms to refer to ourselves as does the ruling class. It takes a little of the sting out of the epithet from the mouths of the rulers.

Vernon4

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 11:18:41 AM   
Vernon4


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline 		Meat Cleaver:

History is written by the winners and that bowdlerized version of the history of the slave trade is another in a long line of justifications for evil. So the evil of the Whites is mitigated by the cupidity and internecine strife that slave trade caused in Africa. Do not compared African slavery with the race based slavery practiced by our European brethren. REMEMBER THE MANTRA, 'BLAME THE VICTIMS, ;THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE."

Vernon4


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 11:32:50 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vernon4

Do not compared African slavery with the race based slavery practiced by our European brethren. REMEMBER THE MANTRA, 'BLAME THE VICTIMS, ;THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE."

Vernon4




Race came an issue with slavery and not before slavery, one only has to read correspondences between white and African traders to realize they were very much working as equal partners for mutual gain. There are records of African slave traders sojourning in the homes of their white business partners in Bristol England. African traders were not victims, their captives were. Just because African traders were black and their captives were black, it doesn't make the traders victims as well.

The Arab slave trade in Africa existed a thousand years before European slavery and continued for more than a century after European slavery had ended. That doesn't let Europeans off the hook but it does show Europeans didn't introduce slavery into Africa.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/28/2006 11:49:43 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Kramer goes ballistic - 11/28/2006 12:04:25 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vernon4
His reputation on this site is somewhere between Bilbo and Foley.


......and what's wrong with Bilbo.....do you have something against hobbits?

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Profile   Post #: 160
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